when wrc cars get sideways.....

that's what i don't get though....drift cars usually have some pretty
powerful engines....and even when in the red you can clearly hear the
tires skreech over the sound of a full throttle engine....

and in some of the tarmac rallies...i can hear the tires making a low
scrubbing noise over the tarmac....i can also hear cheers from just a
few people right near the edge of the course....

i thought...maybe the wrc cars were so light that the friction of the
tire was so little that that's why the tires didn't screech....but
there doesn't seem anyway to prove that.

and i thought.....maybe the tire compound is softer so....rather than
create a ton of friction....the tarmac removes tread since it's so
soft.....again...there's no way to know for sure....





SNAFU wrote:
> "sal bass" <thecontact_509 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> >why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?
> >
> >i got a chance to watch a drift competition a few days ago.....it
> >was
> >cool to see...lots of skill involved....but DAMN! they were
> >sooooooooooo loud....i left after about 10 minutes.....who could stand
> >that????
> >
> >but when i watch the rallys on TV...without the music overdub, and
> >cheers, and in-car sound.....if i do hear any noise from the
> >tires...it's sounds like the tires are on the verge fo
> >skreeching....but they never do.....
> >
> >anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> >skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?
>
> My two cents:
>
> 1) engine noise in WRC cars is louder and "masks" tyre noise;
> 2) getting sideways is a necessity (i.e. a necessary evil) for a WRC car, and
> an aim for a "drifter": in tne latter case the effects are maximised.
>
> --
> SNAFU
>
> Per rispondermi privatamente, sostituisci "snaphoo" con "snafu"
> To reply via e-mail, please remember to replace "snaphoo" with "snafu"
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

On 27 Apr 2006 08:11:02 -0700, "sal bass" <thecontact_509.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>that's what i don't get though....drift cars usually have some pretty
>powerful engines....and even when in the red you can clearly hear the
>tires skreech over the sound of a full throttle engine....
>
>and in some of the tarmac rallies...i can hear the tires making a low
>scrubbing noise over the tarmac....i can also hear cheers from just a
>few people right near the edge of the course....
>
>i thought...maybe the wrc cars were so light that the friction of the
>tire was so little that that's why the tires didn't screech....but
>there doesn't seem anyway to prove that.
>
>and i thought.....maybe the tire compound is softer so....rather than
>create a ton of friction....the tarmac removes tread since it's so
>soft.....again...there's no way to know for sure....

Preatty much I guess you should avoid "screech" -- for a rallydriver,
he need to "save" his tires. Very often we see putting to much
"preassure" on the tires can ruin a rally for a driver.

Over the last years there have been a development also in how WRC-cars
are driven. Corners are taken in a different way by "the new school"
(Loeb, Solberg..) than many of the older and other more "aggressive"
drivers which tend to go more sideways -- and for rally, that ain't
the most efficiant way of driving in many cases.


--
Clas Mehus
- "Den som har flest prylar när han dör vinner..."
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

"sal bass" <thecontact_509.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146104033.467747.41490@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?
>
> i got a chance to watch a drift competition a few days ago.....it was
> cool to see...lots of skill involved....but DAMN! they were
> sooooooooooo loud....i left after about 10 minutes.....who could stand
> that????
>
> but when i watch the rallys on TV...without the music overdub, and
> cheers, and in-car sound.....if i do hear any noise from the
> tires...it's sounds like the tires are on the verge fo
> skreeching....but they never do.....
>
> anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?
>

Just a thought, not claiming to be the truth - but there's a difference in
what the wheels are doing. In a WRC hairpin, the handbrake locks the rear
wheels, so they slide on tarmac with rubber-to-road speed equal to the car's
sideways speed. In drifting, they're achieving sliding friction by spinning
the wheels at whatever speed, plus the sideways sliding of the car. The
rubber-to-road speed is much higher for a drifter, so there's a lot more
noise and smoke.

You can also tell what someone in regular around-town traffic is doing based
on tire noises. Someone burning out at a green light (with a quiet muffler
so you don't hear the engine) sounds different than someone locking up their
brakes and sliding to a stop. Not to mention there's often a crunch at the
end of the braking screech...

tom
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

oh yes...i forgot about the handbrake.....but it is only a few seconds
that they pull it and after that...if they are still sideways...you can
clearly see the wheels spinning....

at any rate.....it's something that i've always wondered about but
can't seem to get any info on.....

i WISH there were WRC rallies here in the US.....i doubt it'll ever
happen....then maybe one day...i can find out.....



et al....the other thing i wonder about is.....when a car corners off
road.....i can hear this chirping sound....

i've heard tons of reasons as to why this happens.....friction from the
tires.....the turbo blowing off pressure....the chassis twisting.....

anyone have any info on this?


Tom Moeller wrote:
> "sal bass" <thecontact_509.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1146104033.467747.41490@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?
> >
> > i got a chance to watch a drift competition a few days ago.....it was
> > cool to see...lots of skill involved....but DAMN! they were
> > sooooooooooo loud....i left after about 10 minutes.....who could stand
> > that????
> >
> > but when i watch the rallys on TV...without the music overdub, and
> > cheers, and in-car sound.....if i do hear any noise from the
> > tires...it's sounds like the tires are on the verge fo
> > skreeching....but they never do.....
> >
> > anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> > skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?
> >
>
> Just a thought, not claiming to be the truth - but there's a difference in
> what the wheels are doing. In a WRC hairpin, the handbrake locks the rear
> wheels, so they slide on tarmac with rubber-to-road speed equal to the car's
> sideways speed. In drifting, they're achieving sliding friction by spinning
> the wheels at whatever speed, plus the sideways sliding of the car. The
> rubber-to-road speed is much higher for a drifter, so there's a lot more
> noise and smoke.
>
> You can also tell what someone in regular around-town traffic is doing based
> on tire noises. Someone burning out at a green light (with a quiet muffler
> so you don't hear the engine) sounds different than someone locking up their
> brakes and sliding to a stop. Not to mention there's often a crunch at the
> end of the braking screech...
>
> tom
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

"sal bass" <thecontact_509 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146104033.467747.41490@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?

> anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?

Completely different driving technique.

A "drift" driver, esp. on a drift battle, doesn't produce much thrust
from
the rear wheels at all. Most of the engine power is actually wasted on
spinning the wheels, producing all that smoke and noise and all that.
It's
like those "smoke-outs" you've seen done at some truck events. They
spray water and leave the rear wheels on a steel plate... and let it
spin.
Except the drift driver keeps the car moving. The wheel spins at much
higher RPM than actual car speed.

A rally car, on the other hand, swinging the tail around a hairpin, has
a
completely different aim in mind. He needs to get the car pointed down
the road while retaining as much of his speed as possible. The choice is
understeer and over steer, and oversteer is controllable, whereas
understeer
is not, so most drivers choose oversteer by forcing the rear wheels
loose
(often with handbrakes, but it can be done with other ways). The rear
wheels are spinning at road speed, or slower, thus lack of the noise.
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

"sal bass" <thecontact_509 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1146104033.467747.41490@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?
>
> i got a chance to watch a drift competition a few days ago.....it was
> cool to see...lots of skill involved....but DAMN! they were
> sooooooooooo loud....i left after about 10 minutes.....who could stand
> that????
>
> but when i watch the rallys on TV...without the music overdub, and
> cheers, and in-car sound.....if i do hear any noise from the
> tires...it's sounds like the tires are on the verge fo
> skreeching....but they never do.....
>
> anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?
>

I think most of it comes down to tyres... most rally tyres run on asphalt
are slicks with tiny groves cut into them.. where as drift tyres are
normally road tyres... when the chunks on a road tyre oscillate they vibrate
and make that noise... where as rally tyres are the other way around... flat
surface with minimul groves cut in!
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

Actually there are a few components missing here. First off, all drift
cars are rear wheel drive. WRC are all wheel drive. Four wheel
drifting is exceptionally difficult to do and to control and is why you
see wrc drivers using the e-brake, which is only connected to the rear
wheels, to force the car into a slide.

But the 4wd vs 2wd thing aside, anyone who "grip" drives like rally car
drivers or road racers or f1 or whatever will tell you that you can
make a constant screeching sound all around the track, no matter what
compound tires you're running. Its called driving beyond the limits of
your tire. Of course, after short periods of this type of abuse, your
tires will start feeling greasy and large chunks of rubber will come
flying off. Your cornering and braking abilities will be significantly
reduced and your laptimes will be much slower.

Wrc cars have millions of dollars invested into them to have mechanical
and electronic (although not so much this year) means of keeping the
tires from spinning excessively. From launch control to electronically
controlled differentials...

A drifter can change his tires after each run and each of those runs
only last a minute or so. Drifters will go through a dozen sets of
tires during a competition, sometimes even more. Which is why the tire
companies are such massive drifting sponsors.

Drifters have "detuned" or drift tuned suspensions designed to produce
ridiculous amounts of oversteer. Certain electronic devices to limit
wheel spin, like vehicle dynamic control in the nissans, are completely
removed so that the tires will spin.

Also, drift cars can easily be in the 500+ whp range while I believe
wrc cars are restricted to much less than that. So the whole loud
engines idea doesn't seem a plausible

Emma Ward wrote:
> "sal bass" <thecontact_509.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1146104033.467747.41490@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?
> >
> > i got a chance to watch a drift competition a few days ago.....it was
> > cool to see...lots of skill involved....but DAMN! they were
> > sooooooooooo loud....i left after about 10 minutes.....who could stand
> > that????
> >
> > but when i watch the rallys on TV...without the music overdub, and
> > cheers, and in-car sound.....if i do hear any noise from the
> > tires...it's sounds like the tires are on the verge fo
> > skreeching....but they never do.....
> >
> > anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> > skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?
> >
>
> I think most of it comes down to tyres... most rally tyres run on asphalt
> are slicks with tiny groves cut into them.. where as drift tyres are
> normally road tyres... when the chunks on a road tyre oscillate they vibrate
> and make that noise... where as rally tyres are the other way around... flat
> surface with minimul groves cut in!
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

as i had posted earlier...i could clearly hear teh fans over teh sound
of the engine....which makes me think that if the tires are making
noise....it must not be very much.....




1rallynewbie1 wrote:
> Actually there are a few components missing here. First off, all drift
> cars are rear wheel drive. WRC are all wheel drive. Four wheel
> drifting is exceptionally difficult to do and to control and is why you
> see wrc drivers using the e-brake, which is only connected to the rear
> wheels, to force the car into a slide.
>
> But the 4wd vs 2wd thing aside, anyone who "grip" drives like rally car
> drivers or road racers or f1 or whatever will tell you that you can
> make a constant screeching sound all around the track, no matter what
> compound tires you're running. Its called driving beyond the limits of
> your tire. Of course, after short periods of this type of abuse, your
> tires will start feeling greasy and large chunks of rubber will come
> flying off. Your cornering and braking abilities will be significantly
> reduced and your laptimes will be much slower.
>
> Wrc cars have millions of dollars invested into them to have mechanical
> and electronic (although not so much this year) means of keeping the
> tires from spinning excessively. From launch control to electronically
> controlled differentials...
>
> A drifter can change his tires after each run and each of those runs
> only last a minute or so. Drifters will go through a dozen sets of
> tires during a competition, sometimes even more. Which is why the tire
> companies are such massive drifting sponsors.
>
> Drifters have "detuned" or drift tuned suspensions designed to produce
> ridiculous amounts of oversteer. Certain electronic devices to limit
> wheel spin, like vehicle dynamic control in the nissans, are completely
> removed so that the tires will spin.
>
> Also, drift cars can easily be in the 500+ whp range while I believe
> wrc cars are restricted to much less than that. So the whole loud
> engines idea doesn't seem a plausible
>
> Emma Ward wrote:
> > "sal bass" <thecontact_509 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1146104033.467747.41490@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?
> > >
> > > i got a chance to watch a drift competition a few days ago.....it was
> > > cool to see...lots of skill involved....but DAMN! they were
> > > sooooooooooo loud....i left after about 10 minutes.....who could stand
> > > that????
> > >
> > > but when i watch the rallys on TV...without the music overdub, and
> > > cheers, and in-car sound.....if i do hear any noise from the
> > > tires...it's sounds like the tires are on the verge fo
> > > skreeching....but they never do.....
> > >
> > > anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> > > skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?
> > >
> >
> > I think most of it comes down to tyres... most rally tyres run on asphalt
> > are slicks with tiny groves cut into them.. where as drift tyres are
> > normally road tyres... when the chunks on a road tyre oscillate they vibrate
> > and make that noise... where as rally tyres are the other way around... flat
> > surface with minimul groves cut in!
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways..... 

With regard to the chirping sound, it could be coming from the tires or
the blow off valve which helps to keep the turbo safe by releasing
turbo pressure when the driver gets off the gas. I've watched WRC on
tv for a while and I don't think the sound of the blow off is very
distinct.

On drift cars, you can hear a lot of the aftermarket blow off valves,
and for that matter, on a lot of modified japanese cars.

If you're hearing it when the cars coming out of the corner and not on
the entry into the corner, I'd guess the sound you're hearing is the
sound of the tires at maximum adhesion and starting to break loose just
a touch.




sal bass wrote:
> as i had posted earlier...i could clearly hear teh fans over teh sound
> of the engine....which makes me think that if the tires are making
> noise....it must not be very much.....
>
>
>
>
> 1rallynewbie1 wrote:
> > Actually there are a few components missing here. First off, all drift
> > cars are rear wheel drive. WRC are all wheel drive. Four wheel
> > drifting is exceptionally difficult to do and to control and is why you
> > see wrc drivers using the e-brake, which is only connected to the rear
> > wheels, to force the car into a slide.
> >
> > But the 4wd vs 2wd thing aside, anyone who "grip" drives like rally car
> > drivers or road racers or f1 or whatever will tell you that you can
> > make a constant screeching sound all around the track, no matter what
> > compound tires you're running. Its called driving beyond the limits of
> > your tire. Of course, after short periods of this type of abuse, your
> > tires will start feeling greasy and large chunks of rubber will come
> > flying off. Your cornering and braking abilities will be significantly
> > reduced and your laptimes will be much slower.
> >
> > Wrc cars have millions of dollars invested into them to have mechanical
> > and electronic (although not so much this year) means of keeping the
> > tires from spinning excessively. From launch control to electronically
> > controlled differentials...
> >
> > A drifter can change his tires after each run and each of those runs
> > only last a minute or so. Drifters will go through a dozen sets of
> > tires during a competition, sometimes even more. Which is why the tire
> > companies are such massive drifting sponsors.
> >
> > Drifters have "detuned" or drift tuned suspensions designed to produce
> > ridiculous amounts of oversteer. Certain electronic devices to limit
> > wheel spin, like vehicle dynamic control in the nissans, are completely
> > removed so that the tires will spin.
> >
> > Also, drift cars can easily be in the 500+ whp range while I believe
> > wrc cars are restricted to much less than that. So the whole loud
> > engines idea doesn't seem a plausible
> >
> > Emma Ward wrote:
> > > "sal bass" <thecontact_509.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1146104033.467747.41490@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > > why don't they make an unholy skreeeeeeeeeeeeech like drift cars do?
> > > >
> > > > i got a chance to watch a drift competition a few days ago.....it was
> > > > cool to see...lots of skill involved....but DAMN! they were
> > > > sooooooooooo loud....i left after about 10 minutes.....who could stand
> > > > that????
> > > >
> > > > but when i watch the rallys on TV...without the music overdub, and
> > > > cheers, and in-car sound.....if i do hear any noise from the
> > > > tires...it's sounds like the tires are on the verge fo
> > > > skreeching....but they never do.....
> > > >
> > > > anyway....is there any _definitive_ reason why the WRC cars don't
> > > > skreech when they get around hairpins on a tarmac rally?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think most of it comes down to tyres... most rally tyres run on asphalt
> > > are slicks with tiny groves cut into them.. where as drift tyres are
> > > normally road tyres... when the chunks on a road tyre oscillate they vibrate
> > > and make that noise... where as rally tyres are the other way around... flat
> > > surface with minimul groves cut in!
 >> Stay informed about: when wrc cars get sideways.....