Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man

On Jul 4, 11:51 am, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREM....RemoveThis@alltel.net> wrote:
>  The fact of the matter is that GM is bogged down
> by years of two things - bad management practices (as I stated originally)
> and bad union agreements.  Both of those were survivable during banner


When a company gets too big the objective of creating good cars seems
to get lost.
The Unions are fighting for the salaries and working hours of members
as if that is the only issue to worry about.
Management basically figting the unions and getting as much as they
can for themselves.

The common goal of keeping the company alive falls between the camps
somewhere and becomes a side issue.
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

On Jul 3, 11:19 am, "HLS" <nos....RemoveThis@nospam.nix> wrote:
> "Gosi" <gos....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f59193f0-3c5c-45ca-9df1-
>
> VW has moved a lot of jobs away from their most expensive UNIONIZED
> work force in Germany.
> First by introducing a lot of robots so they need a lot less people.
> Also moving to low wage countries.
>
> ***********
>
> Exactly what low wage countries are you talking about?

I visited the factory in Wolfsburg (Autostadt) with a decade in
between.
There is a very noticable difference in the number of robots.
There are ever less number of human robots - people doing robot like
jobs.
Increasing number of supervisors making sure the robots are working
properly.

For every robot introduced there are a number of people not needed
anymore.

Even if this process is only happening gradually then over a decade
the effects are huge.

Working hours and working conditions for those remaining change.
The effect of the Unions is completely different.

If a factory is not introducing robots it will soon be out of
business.

If you look at the number of people working in an old factory and
compare with a factory that produces the same amount of cars with
robots you will see an enoumous difference.

A robot works 24 hours a day.
Does not go on strike.
Does not need toiletbreaks.
Always does the same thing over and over.
No hangovers and no monday cars.

I guess that ultimately the survivor of GM will be how well they can
handle the situation of getting rid of people and introduce more and
more robots.
I know they have a lot of robots already.
I am pretty sure that the Unions are not always too happy about
getting more robots because then they lose people.
Management are not always happy with robots because of their initial
costs and starting problems.

Introducing a robot into a human robot chain of work is not as
efficient as designing the factory around the robots.

Like it or not the robots are gradually coming and they will meen a
lot less people will be needed.
Who is to get the benefit of the robots work is what it is all about.
The Unions will have to accept more and more robots otherwise the
whole company will lose in the fight against other companies using
robots.

So it is not a question of foreign labor against domestic.
In the end it will not matter where the factory is located because the
robots will win every time.
They get cheaper and more reliable all the time.
All machines are in a way robots.
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

"Nate Nagel" <njnagel.RemoveThis@roosters.net> wrote in message
>
> Most VWs sold in the US come from Mexico or Brazil.
>
> nate

I would like to hope that VW holds the same high standards no matter
where the car is made...(?)
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

Nate Nagel turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:

> Gosi wrote:
>> On Jul 3, 11:19 am, "HLS" <nos... DeleteThis @nospam.nix> wrote:
>>
>>>"Gosi" <gos... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message news:f59193f0-3c5c-45ca-9df1-
>>>
>>>VW has moved a lot of jobs away from their most expensive UNIONIZED
>>>work force in Germany.
>>>First by introducing a lot of robots so they need a lot less people.
>>>Also moving to low wage countries.
>>>
>>>***********
>>>
>>>Exactly what low wage countries are you talking about?
>>
>>
>> East europe, spain, portugal, mexico etc
>
> Most VWs sold in the US come from Mexico or Brazil.
>
> nate
>

Something wrong with a Mexican car??

My Avalanche is Mexican. Seems fine so far. (Just under two years old and
about 34,000 miles.)

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

HLS wrote:
>
> "Nate Nagel" <njnagel.TakeThisOut@roosters.net> wrote in message
>
>>
>> Most VWs sold in the US come from Mexico or Brazil.
>>
>> nate
>
>
> I would like to hope that VW holds the same high standards no matter
> where the car is made...(?)
>

What's sad is that the typical reputation of VW quality among VW fans is
Germany = best, everywhere else = pretty good, Westmoreland, PA = run
like hell. Now my mom drove a Westmoreland built Golf for almost 20
years so they must have cranked out at least a few good ones. I had two
Westmoreland built cars myself, one was fine, the other had a lot of
niggling little problems, but it had been sitting in a barn and then
resuscitated before I bought it.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

"Nate Nagel" <njnagel.RemoveThis@roosters.net> wrote in message
> What's sad is that the typical reputation of VW quality among VW fans is
> Germany = best, everywhere else = pretty good, Westmoreland, PA = run like
> hell. Now my mom drove a Westmoreland built Golf for almost 20 years so
> they must have cranked out at least a few good ones. I had two
> Westmoreland built cars myself, one was fine, the other had a lot of
> niggling little problems, but it had been sitting in a barn and then
> resuscitated before I bought it.
>
> nate

One of the things I have heard about VW, and which really disappoints me if
true, is
that in cases of problems, the dealerships are about as helpful as a case of
diarrhea,
and the "factory", corporate VW, takes the dealership side.

Pity the client, if this is true..

Of course, GM has had a long history of similar behavior.
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

PerfectReign wrote:
> Nate Nagel turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:
>
>> Gosi wrote:
>>> On Jul 3, 11:19 am, "HLS" <nos....TakeThisOut@nospam.nix> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Gosi" <gos....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message news:f59193f0-3c5c-45ca-9df1-
>>>>
>>>> VW has moved a lot of jobs away from their most expensive UNIONIZED
>>>> work force in Germany.
>>>> First by introducing a lot of robots so they need a lot less people.
>>>> Also moving to low wage countries.
>>>>
>>>> ***********
>>>>
>>>> Exactly what low wage countries are you talking about?
>>>
>>> East europe, spain, portugal, mexico etc
>> Most VWs sold in the US come from Mexico or Brazil.
>>
>> nate
>>
>
> Something wrong with a Mexican car??
>
> My Avalanche is Mexican. Seems fine so far. (Just under two years old and
> about 34,000 miles.)
>

Work ethic in Mexico isn't as good as in Germany. Fly Mexicana or
Lufthansa?

--
Civis Romanus Sum
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

"Jim Higgins" <gordian238.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> Work ethic in Mexico isn't as good as in Germany. Fly Mexicana or
> Lufthansa?

As much as I dont like the tone of the remark, there is some truth to it.
The work ethic doesnt have to be as good on a personal level, however,
if the quality programs are in place and are functioning.

Many companies institute programs like ISO but not all are serious in making
them actually function. Some just want the certificate.
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

Jim Higgins turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:

> PerfectReign wrote:
>> Nate Nagel turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:
>>
>>> Gosi wrote:
>>>> On Jul 3, 11:19 am, "HLS" <nos....RemoveThis@nospam.nix> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gosi" <gos....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:f59193f0-3c5c-45ca-9df1-
>>>>>
>>>>> VW has moved a lot of jobs away from their most expensive UNIONIZED
>>>>> work force in Germany.
>>>>> First by introducing a lot of robots so they need a lot less people.
>>>>> Also moving to low wage countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> ***********
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly what low wage countries are you talking about?
>>>>
>>>> East europe, spain, portugal, mexico etc
>>> Most VWs sold in the US come from Mexico or Brazil.
>>>
>>> nate
>>>
>>
>> Something wrong with a Mexican car??
>>
>> My Avalanche is Mexican. Seems fine so far. (Just under two years old and
>> about 34,000 miles.)
>>
>
> Work ethic in Mexico isn't as good as in Germany. Fly Mexicana or
> Lufthansa?
>

Yes. I've flown both.

I'm still here.


(Oh, and for the record, I spent the first 13 years of my life in a VW. My
mom had first a '69 then a '73 bug. I was supposed to inherit it when I
turned 16, but couldn't fit my knees behind the steering wheel to shift by
the time I turned 13. She dumped it and bought an Oldsmobile Gutless
Supreme.)
--
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powered by the lizard: www.opensuse.org
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

On Jul 5, 7:50 am, Gosi <gos... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 4, 11:51 am, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREM... DeleteThis @alltel.net> wrote:
>
> >   The fact of the matter is that GM is bogged down
> > by years of two things - bad management practices (as I stated originally)
> > and bad union agreements.  Both of those were survivable during banner
>
> When a company gets too big the objective of creating good cars seems
> to get lost.
> The Unions are fighting for the salaries and working hours of members
> as if that is the only issue to worry about.
> Management basically figting the unions and getting as much as they
> can for themselves.
>
> The common goal of keeping the company alive falls between the camps
> somewhere and becomes a side issue.

http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/02/16/reece/index.html

The Union of miners support destroying the land for the sake of
salaries and jobs for its members.

The rest of the population and the environment they do not care about.

"keep people poor and scared so that they remain powerless."

"justice may be slow coming to the mountains of Appalachia. But
justice delayed could mean the ruin of a place that has sacrificed
much for this nation, and has received next to nothing in return."
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

On Jul 6, 8:38 am, "HLS" <nos... RemoveThis @nospam.nix> wrote:
> "Nate Nagel" <njna... RemoveThis @roosters.net> wrote in message
> > What's sad is that the typical reputation of VW quality among VW fans is
> > Germany = best, everywhere else = pretty good, Westmoreland, PA = run like
> > hell.  Now my mom drove a Westmoreland built Golf for almost 20 years so
> > they must have cranked out at least a few good ones.  I had two
> > Westmoreland built cars myself, one was fine, the other had a lot of
> > niggling little problems, but it had been sitting in a barn and then
> > resuscitated before I bought it.
>
> > nate
>
> One of the things I have heard about VW, and which really disappoints me if
> true, is
> that in cases of problems, the dealerships are about as helpful as a case of
> diarrhea,
> and the "factory", corporate VW, takes the dealership side.
>
> Pity the client, if this is true..
>
> Of course, GM has had a long history of similar behavior.

This is somewhat true. I would love to simply level and pave over the
dealership in Livonia, MI for trying to screw me over on some repairs
on my '89 16V (I yanked it out of there when they told me I would have
to replace a 2-year old catcon before they'd even go any farther with
troubleshooting the car; investigation at an independent shop revealed
a perfectly good cat but a burned valve.) However the dealership in
Annapolis, MD where I bought my '02 GTI was pretty decent; only peeve
was that my car had the typical A4 window regulator problems and they
wouldn't bend the rules (handed down by VWoA) to fix both of them at
the same time, they'd only fix the one that was actually broken. So I
had to come back a month later when the pass. side window broke.
Other than that they were OK and I can't remember but I think every
other service was free.

VWoA are a bunch of combusting rectums however. SWMBO got screwed out
of an expensive heater core replacement on her Corrado even though the
NHTSA web site said her car was covered by the recall (her core had
actually failed; this wasn't a case where someone was trying to simply
get a new core for insurance.)

I love VWs but my inclination is to stick with the 80's stuff and not
take it to a dealership, ever.

nate
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

In article <ShMak.11938$jI5.3220@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com>,
"Willy" <wesk.RemoveThis@prodigy.net> wrote:

> While it appears GM and the big 3 in general aren't going to offer truly
> fuel efficient hybrids (other than the Ford Escape, but even that isn't
> stellar) I've been checking into and seriously considering a VW Jetta TDI
> (diesel) which can easily produce 45plus MPG with NO worries about battery
> life etc...
>
> The TDI diesel produces the best gas mileage of any non hybrid auto offered
> in the US. With that thought in mind, I just read that VW has a hybrid in
> the works, using the diesel engine along with batteries, and preliminary
> results suggest it will be capable of 65 mpg or possibly higher. That would
> best the Prius numbers by a long shot and make it the most fuel efficient
> vehicle in the US. Wouldn't it be interesting if VW suddenly rose to the
> top of the heap while the big 3 all scratch their heads and try to figure
> out how to transition from trucks to fuel efficient cars??? (and I own two
> Chevy's, so I'm not anti GM)
>
> A very interesting concept IMHO, and I'm anxious to see how it works out.
>
> Willy

Interesting.
As for GM their plan to bring out their Volt in a few years, it is a
bad joke;
for the buyers who will struggle with a partitally developed car.
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man 

"Spam away" <Trashhere RemoveThis @spam.net> wrote in message
news:Trashhere-BC7018.18175321072008@news.telus.net...
> In article <ShMak.11938$jI5.3220@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com>,
> "Willy" <wesk RemoveThis @prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>> While it appears GM and the big 3 in general aren't going to offer truly
>> fuel efficient hybrids (other than the Ford Escape, but even that isn't
>> stellar) I've been checking into and seriously considering a VW Jetta TDI
>> (diesel) which can easily produce 45plus MPG with NO worries about
>> battery
>> life etc...
>>
>> The TDI diesel produces the best gas mileage of any non hybrid auto
>> offered
>> in the US. With that thought in mind, I just read that VW has a hybrid
>> in
>> the works, using the diesel engine along with batteries, and preliminary
>> results suggest it will be capable of 65 mpg or possibly higher. That
>> would
>> best the Prius numbers by a long shot and make it the most fuel efficient
>> vehicle in the US. Wouldn't it be interesting if VW suddenly rose to the
>> top of the heap while the big 3 all scratch their heads and try to figure
>> out how to transition from trucks to fuel efficient cars??? (and I own
>> two
>> Chevy's, so I'm not anti GM)
>>
>> A very interesting concept IMHO, and I'm anxious to see how it works out.
>>
>> Willy
>
> Interesting.
> As for GM their plan to bring out their Volt in a few years, it is a
> bad joke;
> for the buyers who will struggle with a partitally developed car.


I seriously thought about "waiting" for the Volt, but I can see, based on
history and the current flood of volt propaganda, that GM is once again
going to RUSH an incomplete untested product to market, most likely at an
elevated price in hopes of creating cash flow and once again, fixing the
problems after the product is in the consumers hands.

Darn it I wish they'd STOP THAT!!!!

Willy
 >> Stay informed about: Considering a VW even though I'm a Chevy Man