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External
Since: Nov 24, 2006
Posts: 26
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(Msg. 16) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:45 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>autos>toyota>trucks (more info?)
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Fuller Wrath wrote:
> No I can drive a stick but I see no point in endless shifting. There's more
> to life than that. People who say it offers more control are speaking with
> testosterone rather than facts.
It's no fun getting stuck in stop-and-go traffic on a long, slightly
uphill road. Downhill, you can coast, uphill, it's throttle-clutch-brake
for what seems forever as you move ahead about 10' at a time.
--
Tom - Vista, CA |
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External
Since: Oct 30, 2006
Posts: 245
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(Msg. 17) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:30 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Fuller Wrath wrote:
> Please define that overused word "control" Can you not "control" shifting
> in an automatic?
Of course you can.
For me, the control comes from the speed of engagement, and speed of
torque appliaction, when a driver can control the clutch, not simply if
I can shift myself. I can also control exactly when it shifts in either
direction.
Maybe I haven't driven the right automatic, but all of the examples I've
driven tend to thump from gear to gear when manually shifted.
In loose or snowy conditions, I can manually slip a clutch allowing
torque to be introduced very gradually, so the tire never breaks loose.
This sometimes includes starting in a higher gear, and slipping the
clutch to just slightly move the vehicle. My 4x4 Tacoma can actually be
moved with the starter, using a factory installed clutch bypass.
In slippery and performance conditions, and certain towing situations, I
can downshift much more smoothly than any automatic I've ever driven.
In these cases, smooth is king.
While not high on the customer request list for a manufacturer, a manual
transmission can also be push or roll started with a dead battery.
This can be handy if camping and using the battery, or for those of us
who sometimes leave cars parked for extended periods of time without
access to a battery maintainer.
The last, highly personal, reason is that I find myself slumping,
leaning on the center console, eating, talking on the phone, etc... when
I'm not shifting. When I'm driving a stick, I'm much more involved,
properly positioned, etc... But that's just me. <G>
If you want to drive an automatic, that's great. Some of us would like
the choice of a manual transmission, which is ~ also $600-800 cheaper
than the automatic, when both are available.
All that said, I prefer the automatic for heavy traffic commuting, but
I've positioned myself away from that situation as a lifestyle choice.
<G> Even though I prefer stick shifts, I still like ABS, airbags, MP3
player interfaces, GPS units... |
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External
Since: Jan 21, 2008
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 18) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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B A R R Y wrote:
> Fuller Wrath wrote:
>> Please define that overused word "control" Can you not "control" shifting
>> in an automatic?
>
> Of course you can.
>
> For me, the control comes from the speed of engagement, and speed of
> torque appliaction, when a driver can control the clutch, not simply if
> I can shift myself. I can also control exactly when it shifts in either
> direction.
>
> Maybe I haven't driven the right automatic, but all of the examples I've
> driven tend to thump from gear to gear when manually shifted.
>
> In loose or snowy conditions, I can manually slip a clutch allowing
> torque to be introduced very gradually, so the tire never breaks loose.
> This sometimes includes starting in a higher gear, and slipping the
> clutch to just slightly move the vehicle. My 4x4 Tacoma can actually be
> moved with the starter, using a factory installed clutch bypass.
>
> In slippery and performance conditions, and certain towing situations, I
> can downshift much more smoothly than any automatic I've ever driven.
> In these cases, smooth is king.
>
> While not high on the customer request list for a manufacturer, a manual
> transmission can also be push or roll started with a dead battery.
> This can be handy if camping and using the battery, or for those of us
> who sometimes leave cars parked for extended periods of time without
> access to a battery maintainer.
>
> The last, highly personal, reason is that I find myself slumping,
> leaning on the center console, eating, talking on the phone, etc... when
> I'm not shifting. When I'm driving a stick, I'm much more involved,
> properly positioned, etc... But that's just me. <G>
>
> If you want to drive an automatic, that's great. Some of us would like
> the choice of a manual transmission, which is ~ also $600-800 cheaper
> than the automatic, when both are available.
>
> All that said, I prefer the automatic for heavy traffic commuting, but
> I've positioned myself away from that situation as a lifestyle choice.
> <G> Even though I prefer stick shifts, I still like ABS, airbags, MP3
> player interfaces, GPS units...
Thanks for doing such a great job of answering Wrath's question about
control. You've saved me a lot of typing, and you've said it better
than I probably could have.  >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 55
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(Msg. 19) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:51 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Fuller Wrath wrote:
> Please define that overused word "control" Can you not "control"
> shifting in an automatic? People who learned to drive on stick
> shifts need to move into the 21st century because in another few
> years they will be seen only in museums.
>
Sounds like someone who has never driven in snow, and has never learned how
to operate a manual shift.
Without a proper understanding of how a manual shift works you will never
understand the advantages. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 21, 2008
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 20) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:52 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Battleax wrote:
> Fuller Wrath wrote:
>> Please define that overused word "control" Can you not "control"
>> shifting in an automatic? People who learned to drive on stick
>> shifts need to move into the 21st century because in another few
>> years they will be seen only in museums.
> Sounds like someone who has never driven in snow, and has never learned how
> to operate a manual shift.
> Without a proper understanding of how a manual shift works you will never
> understand the advantages.
That was precisely my point in one of my replies. Wrath SAYS that he
(she?) has indeed driven vehicles with manual transmissions, but it
seems clear from his comments that he doesn't understand how to make
them work for him. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 21, 2008
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 21) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:58 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Fuller Wrath wrote:
> Please define that overused word "control" Can you not "control" shifting
> in an automatic?
Barry has already done a great job of answering that, so I won't repeat
what he said.
> People who learned to drive on stick shifts need to move
> into the 21st century because in another few years they will be seen only in
> museums.
I guess you missed the part where I said that I learned to drive on an
automatic, and drove automatics almost exclusively for the first 10
years or so. I didn't learn on a stick--that was a CHOICE I made later
on. And I'll say, again, that if you actually knew how to use a manual
transmission to your advantage, you wouldn't be here bashing them. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 21, 2008
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 22) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:09 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jeff Strickland wrote:
> If you would consider a truck, the Tacoma V6 4WD can be bought with a manual
> trans.
I started out with a Toyota truck--a 4-speed stick that I bought new in
1985 and drove for 14 blissfully trouble-free years. But I finally
parted with it and bought the first of my three RAV4s when my latest
pets--two Great Dane puppies--QUICKLY outgrew the front seat. Although
I only have one of them left (unfortunately, Danes die young), a truck
simply won't do, as I would NEVER let a dog ride in the bed of a truck,
and the seats just don't work well for us. He needs the room the back
of the RAV4 (or similar!) gives when the back seats are folded up. I
like the RAV4 because although it is an SUV, its size is small enough
that it's still very fuel-efficient, yet it gives me the interior room I
need. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Apr 27, 2007
Posts: 21
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(Msg. 23) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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It would appear that you have one point of view and can not accept that
others may have a different point of view.
I have both automatics and standards. I enjoy both for different reasons.
One is a bit more costly on fuel and the other is a bit more forgiving in
the winters of new hampshire.
One is easier to drive in the christly city traffic, and one is more fun out
in the country. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 11, 2007
Posts: 1689
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(Msg. 24) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I suggest they are speaking of personal preference.
I actually prefer a manual transmission, but I only have one manual
transmission-equipped car in my inventory right now. My preference has more
to do with what I like than control -- I do not drive in such a manner where
control is an issue. Well, control that comes from matching ground speed to
engine speed ...
I would suggest you are talking out of your ass.
"Fuller Wrath" <boogerpicker RemoveThis @wazoo.net> wrote in message
news:D%vlj.2694$855.1574@newsfe12.phx...
> No I can drive a stick but I see no point in endless shifting. There's
> more to life than that. People who say it offers more control are speaking
> with testosterone rather than facts.
>
>
> "End.of.an.Error.012009" <no.spam.please RemoveThis @no.spam.nowhere.com> wrote in
> message news:13pce5odjejf52@corp.supernews.com...
>> Fuller Wrath wrote:
>>> "End.of.an.Error.012009" <no.spam.please RemoveThis @no.spam.nowhere.com> wrote in
>>> message news:13paid7t6l03e19@corp.supernews.com...
>>>> I'm contemplating buying another RAV4 (I've had 3 in a row, and I love
>>>> them!), but after looking around online it appears they're no longer
>>>> made with manual transmissions. Can anyone confirm this? Since I
>>>> HATE...loathe...despise...automatics, if that's all there is, I'll have
>>>> to buy something other than a RAV4. In fact, after looking a bit at
>>>> other Toyota SUVs, it looks like NONE of them comes with the option of
>>>> manual transmissions, which means I'll have to break my almost quarter
>>>> century loyalty to Toyota and buy another brand. 
>>
>> (annoying top-posting corrected to make sense)
>>
>> > Oh well...some people still like black & white TV and eight tracks too
>>
>> Really? Well, I'm not one of them. I was the first person in my
>> neighborhood to have a DSS dish when they first came out, the first to
>> have a dedicated modem line in my house (in 1985), the first to have
>> high-speed Internet, the first to have a monitored alarm system, etc. So
>> I really don't see your point. I'm not sure what B&W TVs and 8-track
>> tapes have to do with preferring control--and a feeling of actually
>> DRIVING--in my vehicles. Perhaps you're one of those unfortunates who
>> don't know how to drive a stick shift and, therefore, don't understand
>> what you're missing. Whatever! Whether I'm driving in town or up in the
>> mountains, I prefer a 4WD with a stick shift. But whatever floats your
>> boat, I suppose.
>>
>> --
>>
>> SlowER traffic keep right
>> www.cafepress.com/saproducts.11233998
>
> >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 11, 2007
Posts: 1689
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(Msg. 25) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:13 pm
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"End.of.an.Error.012009" <no.spam.please.TakeThisOut@no.spam.nowhere.com> wrote in
message news:13pd5oqlrrnlka6@corp.supernews.com...
> Fuller Wrath wrote:
>> No I can drive a stick but I see no point in endless shifting. There's
>> more to life than that. People who say it offers more control are
>> speaking with testosterone rather than facts.
>
> Oh, really?! Interesting, considering that--as a woman--I have no
> testosterone to speak of.
>
.... she said while shaving her moustasche ...
<ducking for cover>
<sorry, it sounded funny in my head.> >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 21, 2008
Posts: 10
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(Msg. 26) Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:13 pm
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> Oh, really?! Interesting, considering that--as a woman--I have no
>> testosterone to speak of.
> ... she said while shaving her moustasche ...
>
> <ducking for cover>
>
>
> <sorry, it sounded funny in my head.>
No need to duck--it made me laugh, too, so it's cool. Besides, I'm
used to being told that I have balls, so I guess a mustache isn't that
much of a stretch. :O >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Nov 04, 2007
Posts: 23
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(Msg. 27) Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:32 am
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jan 22, 4:37 pm, "Fuller Wrath" <boogerpic... RemoveThis @wazoo.net> wrote:
> No I can drive a stick but I see no point in endless shifting. There's more
> to life than that. People who say it offers more control are speaking with
> testosterone rather than facts.
>
> "End.of.an.Error.012009" <no.spam.ple... RemoveThis @no.spam.nowhere.com> wrote in
> messagenews:13pce5odjejf52@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Fuller Wrath wrote:
> >> "End.of.an.Error.012009" <no.spam.ple... RemoveThis @no.spam.nowhere.com> wrote in
> >> messagenews:13paid7t6l03e19@corp.supernews.com...
> >>> I'm contemplating buying another RAV4 (I've had 3 in a row, and I love
> >>> them!), but after looking around online it appears they're no longer
> >>> made with manual transmissions. Can anyone confirm this? Since I
> >>> HATE...loathe...despise...automatics, if that's all there is, I'll have
> >>> to buy something other than a RAV4. In fact, after looking a bit at
> >>> other Toyota SUVs, it looks like NONE of them comes with the option of
> >>> manual transmissions, which means I'll have to break my almost quarter
> >>> century loyalty to Toyota and buy another brand.
>
> > (annoying top-posting corrected to make sense)
>
> > > Oh well...some people still like black & white TV and eight tracks too
>
> > Really? Well, I'm not one of them. I was the first person in my
> > neighborhood to have a DSS dish when they first came out, the first to
> > have a dedicated modem line in my house (in 1985), the first to have
> > high-speed Internet, the first to have a monitored alarm system, etc. So I
> > really don't see your point. I'm not sure what B&W TVs and 8-track tapes
> > have to do with preferring control--and a feeling of actually DRIVING--in
> > my vehicles. Perhaps you're one of those unfortunates who don't know how
> > to drive a stick shift and, therefore, don't understand what you're
> > missing. Whatever! Whether I'm driving in town or up in the mountains, I
> > prefer a 4WD with a stick shift. But whatever floats your boat, I
> > suppose.
>
> > --
>
> > SlowER traffic keep right
> >www.cafepress.com/saproducts.11233998
I can safely say that I have far more control in all of my standard
vehicles then in my automatic ones. This is after learning to drive
on an automatic first then changing to driving a standard. If you
ever drove extensively in slippery or offroad conditions you would
understand. After driving professionally for a couple of years I can
say that I won't be buying anymore automatics in the near future. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Aug 08, 2007
Posts: 124
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(Msg. 28) Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:03 pm
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"B A R R Y" <beech23pilot.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BrGlj.2800$nK5.2736@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Fuller Wrath wrote:
>> Please define that overused word "control" Can you not "control"
>> shifting in an automatic?
>
> Of course you can.
>
> For me, the control comes from the speed of engagement, and speed of
> torque appliaction, when a driver can control the clutch, not simply if I
> can shift myself. I can also control exactly when it shifts in either
> direction.
>
> Maybe I haven't driven the right automatic, but all of the examples I've
> driven tend to thump from gear to gear when manually shifted.
>
> In loose or snowy conditions, I can manually slip a clutch allowing torque
> to be introduced very gradually, so the tire never breaks loose.
Since traction control is standard on the RAV4, you probably would be better
off with the automatic. The principal reason automatics are now standard on
most Toyota products is that Toyota is making Electronic Stability Control
standard - as required by the safety nazis. Toyota could make ESC work with
a manual, but it is more difficult. Given the tiny percentage of RAV4s sold
with manuals, it is not cost effective to adapt ESC to the manual version.
The automatic in my SO's 2007 RAV4 shifts very smoothly when manually
shifted, once you get past the ridiculously over complicated shift gate
(doesn't Toyota have even one ergonomic expert?). The automatic in my Son's
Mazda3 also shifts very smoothly in the manual mode, although I have no idea
why anyone does it. I had a Ford Thunderbird with that feature. Occasionally
I'd play with it, but I decided it was mostly for posers.
> This sometimes includes starting in a higher gear, and slipping the
> clutch to just slightly move the vehicle. My 4x4 Tacoma can actually be
> moved with the starter, using a factory installed clutch bypass.
>
> In slippery and performance conditions, and certain towing situations, I
> can downshift much more smoothly than any automatic I've ever driven. In
> these cases, smooth is king.
I doubt you can out perform Traction Control and ESC (although it is
possible). Pride goes before the fall.
> While not high on the customer request list for a manufacturer, a manual
> transmission can also be push or roll started with a dead battery. This
> can be handy if camping and using the battery, or for those of us who
> sometimes leave cars parked for extended periods of time without access to
> a battery maintainer.
>
> The last, highly personal, reason is that I find myself slumping, leaning
> on the center console, eating, talking on the phone, etc... when I'm not
> shifting. When I'm driving a stick, I'm much more involved, properly
> positioned, etc... But that's just me. <G>
>
> If you want to drive an automatic, that's great. Some of us would like
> the choice of a manual transmission, which is ~ also $600-800 cheaper than
> the automatic, when both are available.
Well you can still buy a Ford Escape with a manual. And it will be many
thousands cheaper. So Toyota is doing you a favor by encouraging you to try
products from another company and allowing you to save a lot of money.
> All that said, I prefer the automatic for heavy traffic commuting, but
> I've positioned myself away from that situation as a lifestyle choice. <G>
> Even though I prefer stick shifts, I still like ABS, airbags, MP3 player
> interfaces, GPS units...
Ed >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 17
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(Msg. 29) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Yawn. All you manual tranny people are going the way of the dinosaur. Happy
days! Less congestion for the rest of us on the road.
"End.of.an.Error.012009" <no.spam.please.TakeThisOut@no.spam.nowhere.com> wrote in
message news:13pesfa9im49tb0@corp.supernews.com...
> Fuller Wrath wrote:
>> Please define that overused word "control" Can you not "control"
>> shifting in an automatic?
>
> Barry has already done a great job of answering that, so I won't repeat
> what he said.
>
>> People who learned to drive on stick shifts need to move into the 21st
>> century because in another few years they will be seen only in museums.
>
> I guess you missed the part where I said that I learned to drive on an
> automatic, and drove automatics almost exclusively for the first 10 years
> or so. I didn't learn on a stick--that was a CHOICE I made later on. And
> I'll say, again, that if you actually knew how to use a manual
> transmission to your advantage, you wouldn't be here bashing them. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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External
Since: Jan 04, 2008
Posts: 17
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(Msg. 30) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:53 pm
Post subject: Re: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Of course you can safely say it since you don't have to quantify or prove
your claim. Why is it the people who claim this superior control are always
the ones I see spinning wheels and burning up their clutches?
Yawn.
Waiting for the next round of superfluous hyperbole.
> I can safely say that I have far more control in all of my standard
> vehicles then in my automatic ones. This is after learning to drive
> on an automatic first then changing to driving a standard. If you
> ever drove extensively in slippery or offroad conditions you would
> understand. After driving professionally for a couple of years I can
> say that I won't be buying anymore automatics in the near future. >> Stay informed about: RAV4--no more manual transmissions? |
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