Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh..

"TE Chea" <4ws.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message news:473ebe18_2@news.tm.net.my...
> My Mitsubishi 4G15P 's carburetor's inlet*manifold is
> joined with hot water's exit from cylinder head : this design
> ( esp in cold climate <10°C ) enables * to heat up fast to 40
> °C ( ideal temperature for air to receive petrol vapour, per
> www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html para 10.2[7] )
> but here in e.g. 28°C ambient air, hot water overheats

Sigh... rubbish!

TE Chea, it's probably a good thing that you do post here, because then you
might learn some correct engine theory and stop providing comic relief.

1. If an engine is in good tune and mechanical condition, its operating
temperature (about 90°C in the water jacket) is pretty much independent of
ambient. Similarly the running temperature of the intake manifold you are so
fixated upon will be about the same and the air-fuel mixture will be as
correct as the carburetor can make it.

> I added cooling ( 2 aluminium dishes with water ) to
> thermostat's cover, significantly reduced *'s heat,

On the thermostat's cover ... on the head at the top hose to the radiator?
Well, I suppose that would cause the cooling system to take longer to come
up to the thermostat's operating temperature, but it WILL get there. On a
carburetored engine this would usually mean that the mixture would be richer
for longer. I'm assuming here that there is also an engine management
computer (ECU) doing something with O2 sensor value, engine temp sensor
value, crank angle sensor and hence also controlling the spark advance.

> got more torque ( as hoped ) + a surprising big drop in exhaust noise.
> I wonder what made exhaust noise drop : if a drop in air intake
> temperature cannot cause this drop in noise,

See above. If the ECU has retarded the timing and it's running a bit richer,
then yes, you will possibly notice a bit more torque, though I'll bet the
engine doesn't rev as high or as easily ... Retarding the timing will also
cause a reduction in exhaust noise. This is in part because with sub-optimum
timing combustion is not as complete as it could be and exhaust back
pressure is increased.


>... then the only possible cause is that distributor ( with transformer
>coil inside
> ) & alternator are cooler & so produce more amps & so bigger
> sparks.

Get a book and read up on Ohm's Law and current sources. Alterators don't
produce more amps just for being cooler. They produce current according to
the load from the engine and ancilliaries, and then only enough to maintain
the operating voltage (about 13.8v). Same for the distributor. The spark
produced is related somewhat to the supplied voltage, but is mostly
controlled by the coil circuit and the drive signal from the ECU.

It sounds to me that you engine needs a thorough tune up or perhaps a (head)
rebuild. The O2 sensor is probably not functioning at all or in a reduced
state. The air cleaner should be replaced. The carburator should be checked
for spindle air leaks and float bowl level. The fuel pressure should be
checked, perhaps replace the fuel filter. The timing should be set the
specified point ( about 5° BTDC) while running the correct fuel grade.
Check the coolant temp sensor for the correct output gradient. It HAS to the
part listed for your engine. Other sensors may fit but the gradient will be
different and the ECU will get confused.

Once all the above is deemed OK, get the emissions checked.

Then post your results...

--
Stewart DIBBS
www.pixcl.com/lancerproject
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

| temperature (about 90°C in the water jacket)
Too high, torque will be low.

| is pretty much independent of ambient.
Impossible, salesman bluffing, to hide design flaw outside cold
climate.

| running temperature of the intake manifold you are so
| fixated upon will be about the same
< water's temperature, you twit.

| On a
| carburetored engine this would usually mean that the mixture would be richer
| for longer.
Bullshit, carburetors use chokes to enrich mixture.

| I'm assuming here that there is also an engine management
| computer (ECU)
4G15P with carburetor has a ECU ?

| Alterators don't produce more amps just for being cooler.
Twit, I already got more amps from 3 alternators ( 2 Nippon
Denso, 1 Mitsubishi ), just as per
www.aa1car.com/library/alternator_highoutput.htm in 6-06 :
[ The "normal" charging voltage on a typical application might be
13.9 to 15.1 volts at 77° F. But at 20° F below zero, the charging
voltage might be 14.9 to 15.8 volts. On a hot engine on a hot day,
the normal charging voltage might drop to 13.5 to 14.3 volts.]
Different voltages ( = pressures ) indicate the comparative # of
amps available.

| Same for the distributor.
Twit, I already got more amps from 4G15P's transformer coil
inside distributor, just by cooling distributor, same result in my
honda F20A ; copper wires' resistances drop with temperature.

| O2 sensor is probably not functioning
none
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

"TE Chea" <4ws DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message news:47417142_1@news.tm.net.my...

Many people resort to insult to hide ignorance. Try not to be one of them
please.

> ...carburetors use chokes to enrich mixture.
> ... 4G15P with carburetor has a ECU ?

Yes, I know that carburetors use chokes. What's controlling yours? An
automatic system, if so what is the automatic control? Vacuum, temperature,
both, what?

I worked on a carbureted '88 Chariot with a 4G63B a few years back, and even
it had a rudimentary ECU of sorts. I would guess that your 4G15P is not
dissimilar.

There may not be an ECU like in fuel injected 4G15's, but there's going to
be some sort of feedback system from the engine sensors, so how about you
enlighten us all what your 4G15P DOES have?

For example, does it have a crank angle sensor and MAF or similar? Your
distributor has an internal coil. Where does the spark advance come from?
Mechanical (I doubt this for anything about 1990 or later), or is it
controlled from an external source ie some sort of ECU?

Where is the output from the coolant temp sensor (near the thermostat cover
on 4G15's here) going? On F.I. engines it goes to the ECU. If there's no ECU
like you claim, what do you think is the point of the sensor? Similarly the
MAF device in the air cleaner, if there is one?

What IS your model year? What about emission controls? Did Malaysia require
this for your model year? If so, what feedback controls are fitted? More
detailed info will enable a better diagnosis and discussion.

> .. I already got more amps from 4G15P's transformer coil
> inside distributor, just by cooling distributor,

OK, SPECIFICALLY how did you measure these extra amps?


--
Stewart DIBBS
www.pixcl.com/lancerproject
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

On 11/19/2007 4:43 AM, TE Chea wrote:
> | temperature (about 90°C in the water jacket)
> Too high, torque will be low.
>
> | is pretty much independent of ambient.
> Impossible, salesman bluffing, to hide design flaw outside cold
> climate.
>
> | running temperature of the intake manifold you are so
> | fixated upon will be about the same
> < water's temperature, you twit.
>
> | On a
> | carburetored engine this would usually mean that the mixture would be richer
> | for longer.
> Bullshit, carburetors use chokes to enrich mixture.
>
> | I'm assuming here that there is also an engine management
> | computer (ECU)
> 4G15P with carburetor has a ECU ?
>
> | Alterators don't produce more amps just for being cooler.
> Twit, I already got more amps from 3 alternators ( 2 Nippon
> Denso, 1 Mitsubishi ), just as per
> www.aa1car.com/library/alternator_highoutput.htm in 6-06 :
> [ The "normal" charging voltage on a typical application might be
> 13.9 to 15.1 volts at 77° F. But at 20° F below zero, the charging
> voltage might be 14.9 to 15.8 volts. On a hot engine on a hot day,
> the normal charging voltage might drop to 13.5 to 14.3 volts.]
> Different voltages ( = pressures ) indicate the comparative # of
> amps available.
>
> | Same for the distributor.
> Twit, I already got more amps from 4G15P's transformer coil
> inside distributor, just by cooling distributor, same result in my
> honda F20A ; copper wires' resistances drop with temperature.
>
> | O2 sensor is probably not functioning
> none
>
>
>
I believe you are basing your argument on this line from the URL you cited in
your first post:

"The exact charging voltage will vary according to the battery state of charge,
the load on the electrical system and temperature. The lower the temperature the
higher the charging voltage, and the higher the temperature the lower the
charging voltage."

This actually refers to the fact that most modern electronic voltage regulators
incorporate some means of adjusting their output to compensate for temperature.
Batteries resist charging when cold and so require higher voltage. When hot,
battery boiling is likely when fully charged so a lower voltage is needed.

ECU controlled feedback carburetors have been used since the mid eighties so it
is likely you have one. I don't know exactly what model you have or if it has
been modified so I can't say for sure. Some ECU's include the voltage regulator
circuitry so changing what the coolant temperature sensor reads would alter the
alternator voltage. Assuming resistance in the circuits is unchanged, higher
voltage _would_ result in higher current (Re: Ohm's Law).

Higher voltage and current would not be likely to effect spark. There would be
higher current through the _primary_ windings but the output (through the
_secondary_ windings) is determined by conditions in the combustion chamber
around the spark gap.


--
G. R. Woodring
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

| The lower the temperature the
| higher the charging voltage, and the higher the temperature the lower the
| charging voltage."
This author shortened his paragraph on this topic, after 6-06.

| Batteries resist charging when cold
Bullshit, lead acid batteries merely shrink in capacity @<26°C,
www.batteryfaq.org .

| battery boiling is likely when fully charged, so a lower voltage is needed.
Bullshit, such a hot battery cannot be fully charged ; lead acid
battery when hot will self discharge, & draw more amps from
alternator until battery is damaged by such heat, whatever voltage
it gets.

| ECU controlled feedback carburetors have been used since the mid eighties
Where ? Name brand & model & yr.

| I don't know exactly what model you have
Mine has a manual choke, 1st bought in 12-90.

| Some ECU's include the voltage regulator
| circuitry so changing what the coolant temperature sensor reads would alter the
| alternator voltage.
Bullshit, alternator's output voltage drops by itself, as its rotor
& stator & diodes heat up.

| Higher voltage and current would not be likely to effect spark.
Ridiculous

| output (through the
| _secondary_ windings) is determined by conditions in the combustion chamber
| around the spark gap.
Even more ludicrous, another salesman bullshiting.
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:46:33 +0800, TE Chea wrote:

Thank you TE Chea. You have made my day, what a funny and ignorant person
you are.

Stop playing with your 'manual choke' otherwise it will fall off.
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

On 11/22/2007 2:46 AM, TE Chea wrote:
> | The lower the temperature the
> | higher the charging voltage, and the higher the temperature the lower the
> | charging voltage."
> This author shortened his paragraph on this topic, after 6-06.
>
> | Batteries resist charging when cold
> Bullshit, lead acid batteries merely shrink in capacity @<26°C,
> www.batteryfaq.org .
>
> | battery boiling is likely when fully charged, so a lower voltage is needed.
> Bullshit, such a hot battery cannot be fully charged ; lead acid
> battery when hot will self discharge, & draw more amps from
> alternator until battery is damaged by such heat, whatever voltage
> it gets.
>
> | ECU controlled feedback carburetors have been used since the mid eighties
> Where ? Name brand & model & yr.
>
Most U.S. passenger cars starting in 1981 some as early as 1979. For Mitsubishi
the earliest specs I have at hand show electronic feedback carburetors used in
1885 Cordia, Tredia, Mirage, Montero and Pick-up.

> | I don't know exactly what model you have
> Mine has a manual choke, 1st bought in 12-90.
>
> | Some ECU's include the voltage regulator
> | circuitry so changing what the coolant temperature sensor reads would alter the
> | alternator voltage.
> Bullshit, alternator's output voltage drops by itself, as its rotor
> & stator & diodes heat up.
>
> | Higher voltage and current would not be likely to effect spark.
> Ridiculous
>
> | output (through the
> | _secondary_ windings) is determined by conditions in the combustion chamber
> | around the spark gap.
> Even more ludicrous, another salesman bullshiting.
>
I worked as a mechanic for over 30 years and had ASE certification as a Master
Automobile Technician and Master Truck technician. (I know what I am talking about).

Do you even read what is posted? You declare me to be a salesman yet nowhere in
any part of my post am I _selling_ _anything_.

All of this is irrelevant, your vehicle will behave according to the laws of
physics in _this_ universe without regard to the laws in your imaginary
universe. So - *Plonk*

--
G. R. Woodring
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

"G. R. Woodring" <tejbbqevat.DeleteThis@rneguyvax.abg> wrote in
news:13khgfb8m13sq11@corp.supernews.com:

> On 11/22/2007 2:46 AM, TE Chea wrote:
>> | The lower the temperature the
>> | higher the charging voltage, and the higher the temperature the
>> | lower the charging voltage."
>> This author shortened his paragraph on this topic, after 6-06.
>>
>> | Batteries resist charging when cold
>> Bullshit, lead acid batteries merely shrink in capacity @<26°C,
>> www.batteryfaq.org .
>>
>> | battery boiling is likely when fully charged, so a lower voltage is
>> | needed.
>> Bullshit, such a hot battery cannot be fully charged ; lead acid
>> battery when hot will self discharge, & draw more amps from
>> alternator until battery is damaged by such heat, whatever voltage
>> it gets.
>>
>> | ECU controlled feedback carburetors have been used since the mid
>> | eighties
>> Where ? Name brand & model & yr.
>>
> Most U.S. passenger cars starting in 1981 some as early as 1979. For
> Mitsubishi the earliest specs I have at hand show electronic feedback
> carburetors used in 1885 Cordia, Tredia, Mirage, Montero and Pick-up.
>
>> | I don't know exactly what model you have
>> Mine has a manual choke, 1st bought in 12-90.
>>
>> | Some ECU's include the voltage regulator
>> | circuitry so changing what the coolant temperature sensor reads
>> | would alter the alternator voltage.
>> Bullshit, alternator's output voltage drops by itself, as its rotor
>> & stator & diodes heat up.
>>
>> | Higher voltage and current would not be likely to effect spark.
>> Ridiculous
>>
>> | output (through the
>> | _secondary_ windings) is determined by conditions in the combustion
>> | chamber around the spark gap.
>> Even more ludicrous, another salesman bullshiting.
>>
> I worked as a mechanic for over 30 years and had ASE certification as
> a Master Automobile Technician and Master Truck technician. (I know
> what I am talking about).
>
> Do you even read what is posted? You declare me to be a salesman yet
> nowhere in any part of my post am I _selling_ _anything_.
>
> All of this is irrelevant, your vehicle will behave according to the
> laws of physics in _this_ universe without regard to the laws in your
> imaginary universe. So - *Plonk*
>

1988 or 89 Mazda GLC 4 door had a "ECU controlled" carburator, a real
pain to fix.
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

On 11/24/2007 8:00 PM, Nirodac wrote:
> "G. R. Woodring" <tejbbqevat.DeleteThis@rneguyvax.abg> wrote in
> news:13khgfb8m13sq11@corp.supernews.com:
>
>> On 11/22/2007 2:46 AM, TE Chea wrote:
>>> | The lower the temperature the
>>> | higher the charging voltage, and the higher the temperature the
>>> | lower the charging voltage."
>>> This author shortened his paragraph on this topic, after 6-06.
>>>
>>> | Batteries resist charging when cold
>>> Bullshit, lead acid batteries merely shrink in capacity @<26°C,
>>> www.batteryfaq.org .
>>>
>>> | battery boiling is likely when fully charged, so a lower voltage is
>>> | needed.
>>> Bullshit, such a hot battery cannot be fully charged ; lead acid
>>> battery when hot will self discharge, & draw more amps from
>>> alternator until battery is damaged by such heat, whatever voltage
>>> it gets.
>>>
>>> | ECU controlled feedback carburetors have been used since the mid
>>> | eighties
>>> Where ? Name brand & model & yr.
>>>
>> Most U.S. passenger cars starting in 1981 some as early as 1979. For
>> Mitsubishi the earliest specs I have at hand show electronic feedback
>> carburetors used in 1885 Cordia, Tredia, Mirage, Montero and Pick-up.
>>
>>> | I don't know exactly what model you have
>>> Mine has a manual choke, 1st bought in 12-90.
>>>
>>> | Some ECU's include the voltage regulator
>>> | circuitry so changing what the coolant temperature sensor reads
>>> | would alter the alternator voltage.
>>> Bullshit, alternator's output voltage drops by itself, as its rotor
>>> & stator & diodes heat up.
>>>
>>> | Higher voltage and current would not be likely to effect spark.
>>> Ridiculous
>>>
>>> | output (through the
>>> | _secondary_ windings) is determined by conditions in the combustion
>>> | chamber around the spark gap.
>>> Even more ludicrous, another salesman bullshiting.
>>>
>> I worked as a mechanic for over 30 years and had ASE certification as
>> a Master Automobile Technician and Master Truck technician. (I know
>> what I am talking about).
>>
>> Do you even read what is posted? You declare me to be a salesman yet
>> nowhere in any part of my post am I _selling_ _anything_.
>>
>> All of this is irrelevant, your vehicle will behave according to the
>> laws of physics in _this_ universe without regard to the laws in your
>> imaginary universe. So - *Plonk*
>>
>
> 1988 or 89 Mazda GLC 4 door had a "ECU controlled" carburator, a real
> pain to fix.
>

A lot of the "new" technology has challenged the technicians of their day. When
the alternator replaced the generator, when points were replaced with electronic
ignition. You either learn it or move aside. My guess is you mastered that
carburetor but then became the go-to guy whenever someone had a GLC with a carb
problem

--
G.R. Woodring
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

> On 11/22/2007 2:46 AM, TE Chea wrote:
> Mine has a manual choke, 1st bought in 12-90.

So, we now know what his car has: a manual choked carburetor with an ECU
that controls the spark advance. Since its now 17 years old, we can assume
there's certainly some wear in the butterfly spindle that's letting air in.
ie the engine is very likely running lean, hence the combustion temperature
is elevated. I suppose though that TE Chea will now start complaining that a
part should not be worn after a mere 17 years...

So, it's not unreasonable to expect that cooling the thermostat region would
cause the ECU to retard the timing somewhat.

Let's suppose that the hotter lean burn is causing the ECU to set the timing
at (say) 2 degrees BTDC, whereas the correct fuel-air mix would require 5-8
BTDC, then the engine will not be generating its maximum torque at a given
rev range. Running cooler (or cold) requires a retarded timing setting from
the ECU, so cooling the thermostat region (and the coolant temperature
sensor) results in the ECU retarding the timing. The question is how far is
it being retarded. If its back to about 10 BTDC (more or less where it
should be) , then perhaps more torque (or more accurately, the normal
operation torque capability) would be noticed. Reduced exhaust noise?
Excessively retard the timing on any engine and the exhaust noise will
reduce.


Stewart DIBBS
www.pixcl.com/lancerproject
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

"Stewart DIBBS" <sjd.RemoveThis@pixcl.com> wrote in message
news:f0998$47498f56$cebf3868$13843@PRIMUS.CA...
> > On 11/22/2007 2:46 AM, TE Chea wrote:
> > Mine has a manual choke, 1st bought in 12-90.
>
> So, we now know what his car has: a manual choked carburetor with an ECU
> that controls the spark advance. Since its now 17 years old, we can assume
> there's certainly some wear in the butterfly spindle that's letting air
in.
> ie the engine is very likely running lean, hence the combustion
temperature
> is elevated. I suppose though that TE Chea will now start complaining that
a
> part should not be worn after a mere 17 years...
>
> So, it's not unreasonable to expect that cooling the thermostat region
would
> cause the ECU to retard the timing somewhat.
>
> Let's suppose that the hotter lean burn is causing the ECU to set the
timing
> at (say) 2 degrees BTDC, whereas the correct fuel-air mix would require
5-8
> BTDC, then the engine will not be generating its maximum torque at a given
> rev range. Running cooler (or cold) requires a retarded timing setting
from
> the ECU, so cooling the thermostat region (and the coolant temperature
> sensor) results in the ECU retarding the timing. The question is how far
is
> it being retarded. If its back to about 10 BTDC (more or less where it
> should be) , then perhaps more torque (or more accurately, the normal
> operation torque capability) would be noticed. Reduced exhaust noise?
> Excessively retard the timing on any engine and the exhaust noise will
> reduce.
>
>
> Stewart DIBBS
> www.pixcl.com/lancerproject

Very logical answers.
Perhaps TE Chea got embarrassed and cannot accept that his assumptions were
flawed.
I am really surprised that anyone tried to help him after his hostile and
infantile responses.
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh.. 

"Bhagat Gurtu" <bhagat14 DeleteThis @hindiblogs.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.11.22.10.20.28.244682@hindiblogs.com...
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:46:33 +0800, TE Chea wrote:
> Thank you TE Chea. You have made my day, what a funny and ignorant person
> you are. Stop playing with your 'manual choke' otherwise it will fall off.

Bhagat,
Made my day too! You have a wicked sense of humour: there's hope for you
yet!

regards
Stewart DIBBS
Lancer Project
 >> Stay informed about: Can a drop in air intake temperature ( 60 - 50°C ) cut exh..