325 dies under way,..

"cosmo" wrote in message

Hello, I thought I had this sorted but these same symptoms have
cropped up again: I'm cruising along with my sunglasses on and my toe
tapping and then the engine stops running. I coast to the side of the
road while people jeer and laugh and crank the starter. It spins but
doesn't fire. I crank for 10 secs and wait 60 secs and try again.
After about 4 minutes of this it starts and runs fine, sometimes for
weeks, sometimes for minutes. It died 5 times yesterday after running
fine for a month. I checked the main relay connections and they're
still shiny from my last clean up.
The car was brought to an expensive shop with this problem last summer
and it tested no error codes but did a similar thing for the mechanic-
it would drive fine but stall at stop signs- start hard and then drive
again. He jiggled the wires- which is my specialty, and the car ran
fine again. He noted, "tach signal probably getting lost,.". Any idea
where the sensor for this? From the Bentley manual I've tested the
cold start sensor and the sensor that's on the front of the cam for
resistance and they are within range at the specified temp. There's
another sensor- maybe crank position- down near the crank pulley,
that's not even supposed to be on my model. I'm open to suggestion.
Thanks for your time and happy motoring to those of you in a position
to do so.
-----

Year, model, engine, transmission?

Bill in Omaha
'86 535i
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

cosmo <beyond the pale> wrote:
>Hello, I thought I had this sorted but these same symptoms have
>cropped up again: I'm cruising along with my sunglasses on and my toe
>tapping and then the engine stops running. I coast to the side of the
>road while people jeer and laugh and crank the starter. It spins but
>doesn't fire. I crank for 10 secs and wait 60 secs and try again.

What does the tailpipe smell like when this happens?

If you swap the fuel relay and some other relay, does the car start
up?

If you pull a spark plug out, is there a spark when this happens?

>After about 4 minutes of this it starts and runs fine, sometimes for
>weeks, sometimes for minutes. It died 5 times yesterday after running
>fine for a month. I checked the main relay connections and they're
>still shiny from my last clean up.
>The car was brought to an expensive shop with this problem last summer
>and it tested no error codes but did a similar thing for the mechanic-
>it would drive fine but stall at stop signs- start hard and then drive
>again. He jiggled the wires- which is my specialty, and the car ran
>fine again. He noted, "tach signal probably getting lost,.". Any idea
>where the sensor for this?

That's a reasonable guess. What year car is this? The older ones have
a tach sensor and a crankshaft position sensor both, and either one can
cause issues.

If these sensors are not providing signal, there will be no spark when
you pull a plug.

So, what did the mechanic from the expensive shop do? He said it was
probably a sensor, then washed his hands and went home?

>From the Bentley manual I've tested the
>cold start sensor and the sensor that's on the front of the cam for
>resistance and they are within range at the specified temp. There's
>another sensor- maybe crank position- down near the crank pulley,
>that's not even supposed to be on my model. I'm open to suggestion.
>Thanks for your time and happy motoring to those of you in a position
>to do so.

You have to do the testing when the problem actually occurs, and that
means carrying stuff with you so that you can do the testing by the
side of the road. All kinds of things can cause these problems.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

cosmo wrote:

>Hello, I thought I had this sorted but these same symptoms have
>cropped up again: I'm cruising along with my sunglasses on and my toe
>tapping and then the engine stops running. I coast to the side of the
>road while people jeer and laugh and crank the starter. It spins but
>doesn't fire. I crank for 10 secs and wait 60 secs and try again.
>After about 4 minutes of this it starts and runs fine, sometimes for
>weeks, sometimes for minutes. It died 5 times yesterday after running
>fine for a month. I checked the main relay connections and they're
>still shiny from my last clean up.

I had a car once that behaved sort-of like that. It was a clogged
fuel filter. It a cheap thing to try...
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:04:00 -0600, "Bill" wrote:

>
>"cosmo" wrote in message
>
>Hello, I thought I had this sorted but these same symptoms have
>cropped up again: I'm cruising along with my sunglasses on and my toe
>tapping and then the engine stops running. I coast to the side of the
>road while people jeer and laugh and crank the starter. It spins but
>doesn't fire. I crank for 10 secs and wait 60 secs and try again.
>After about 4 minutes of this it starts and runs fine, sometimes for
>weeks, sometimes for minutes. It died 5 times yesterday after running
>fine for a month. I checked the main relay connections and they're
>still shiny from my last clean up.
>The car was brought to an expensive shop with this problem last summer
>and it tested no error codes but did a similar thing for the mechanic-
>it would drive fine but stall at stop signs- start hard and then drive
>again. He jiggled the wires- which is my specialty, and the car ran
>fine again. He noted, "tach signal probably getting lost,.". Any idea
>where the sensor for this? From the Bentley manual I've tested the
>cold start sensor and the sensor that's on the front of the cam for
>resistance and they are within range at the specified temp. There's
>another sensor- maybe crank position- down near the crank pulley,
>that's not even supposed to be on my model. I'm open to suggestion.
>Thanks for your time and happy motoring to those of you in a position
>to do so.
>-----
>
>Year, model, engine, transmission?
>
>Bill in Omaha
>'86 535i
>
Sorry, I paniked. It's a 1988 325, auto with the S position on the
shifter, 6 cylinder 2.7L. I think it's motronic but it won't give you
error codes by steping on the gas pedal. 145k miles. It says 325e on
the door sticker but 325 on the rear of the car. The sensors seem to
be present in a mix of '87 an '88. I think this may have been a
change-over year. Thank you.
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

On 21 Dec 2007 21:11:32 -0500, kludge.DeleteThis@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>cosmo <beyond the pale> wrote:
>>Hello, I thought I had this sorted but these same symptoms have
>>cropped up again: I'm cruising along with my sunglasses on and my >>toe tapping and then the engine stops running. I coast to the side of >>the road while people jeer and laugh and crank the starter. It spins but
>>doesn't fire. I crank for 10 secs and wait 60 secs and try again.
>
>What does the tailpipe smell like when this happens?

It smells sickening. Kind of sulphuric, I guess. I did notice a
different smell while cranking. It's about 35 degrees here.
>
>If you swap the fuel relay and some other relay, does the car start
>up?
>
I'll try that . It's hard to think straight when it's dark, rush hour
and you're trying to catch a ferry.
From receipts, this car had a new fuel pump, tank clean, new sock.
Don't see anything about a filter.

>If you pull a spark plug out, is there a spark when this happens?
>

I'll check next time.

>>After about 4 minutes of this it starts and runs fine, sometimes for
>>weeks, sometimes for minutes. It died 5 times yesterday after running
>>fine for a month. I checked the main relay connections and they're
>>still shiny from my last clean up.
>>The car was brought to an expensive shop with this problem last >>summerand it tested no error codes but did a similar thing for the >>mechanic- it would drive fine but stall at stop signs- start hard and then >>drive again. He jiggled the wires- which is my specialty, and the car >>ran fine again. He noted, "tach signal probably getting lost,.". Any idea
>>where the sensor for this?
>
>That's a reasonable guess. What year car is this? The older ones have
>a tach sensor and a crankshaft position sensor both, and either one can
>cause issues.

I'm working from the Bentley book. My car is an '88, 2.7L, auto. It
says 325e on the door sticker but 325 on the boot. The sensors are a
mix of '87/'88. The bottom sensor for the crank is missing; the side
sensor for the crank is there. The '88 cam sensor is there but it uses
an extra sensor for the cold start like an '87.

>If these sensors are not providing signal, there will be no spark when
>you pull a plug.
>
>So, what did the mechanic from the expensive shop do? He said it was
>probably a sensor, then washed his hands and went home?

No, he told them to sell the car as it would cost them too much at $85
per hour to find a problem that didn't produce an error code. They had
already spent $900. He charged them $300 something for the pump.

>
>>From the Bentley manual I've tested the
>>cold start sensor and the sensor that's on the front of the cam for
>>resistance and they are within range at the specified temp. There's
>>another sensor- maybe crank position- down near the crank pulley,
>>that's not even supposed to be on my model. I'm open to suggestion.
>>Thanks for your time and happy motoring to those of you in a position
>>to do so.
>
>You have to do the testing when the problem actually occurs, and that
>means carrying stuff with you so that you can do the testing by the
>side of the road. All kinds of things can cause these problems.
>--scott

Always the voice of reason. Thanks again, Scott, I'll pack my kit.
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

cosmo <beyond the pale> wrote:
>On 21 Dec 2007 21:11:32 -0500, kludge.TakeThisOut@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>cosmo <beyond the pale> wrote:
>>>Hello, I thought I had this sorted but these same symptoms have
>>>cropped up again: I'm cruising along with my sunglasses on and my >>toe tapping and then the engine stops running. I coast to the side of >>the road while people jeer and laugh and crank the starter. It spins but
>>>doesn't fire. I crank for 10 secs and wait 60 secs and try again.
>>
>>What does the tailpipe smell like when this happens?
>
>It smells sickening. Kind of sulphuric, I guess. I did notice a
>different smell while cranking. It's about 35 degrees here.

Okay, so it's getting fuel, and it's misfiring. I agree this sounds
like an ECM or sensor issue.

Next time it happens, open up the glove compartment, and bang on the
ECM with a wrench a few times. They are subject to cold solder joints.

>>If you swap the fuel relay and some other relay, does the car start
>>up?
>>
>I'll try that . It's hard to think straight when it's dark, rush hour
>and you're trying to catch a ferry.
>From receipts, this car had a new fuel pump, tank clean, new sock.
>Don't see anything about a filter.

Umm... wait a minute, you just got this car?

I am thinking it's probably not a fuel pump or fuel pump relay issue.
If they changed the pump, I am surprised they didn't change the relay
as well, too. I'd still swap relays when it happens, though.

>I'm working from the Bentley book. My car is an '88, 2.7L, auto. It
>says 325e on the door sticker but 325 on the boot. The sensors are a
>mix of '87/'88. The bottom sensor for the crank is missing; the side
>sensor for the crank is there. The '88 cam sensor is there but it uses
>an extra sensor for the cold start like an '87.

Okay, if this is what I think it is, the ECM is just a little Intel 8051
with 4K of memory running in a little loop that doesn't do a whole lot
and has no facility for producing error messages. So you can't look at
the sensors with an analyzer, you can't pull codes off the ECM, because
the hardware just isn't in the ECM for that.

This means your job now becomes a process of either swapping sensors out
(and maybe the ECM module... did the original mechanic do that?) and seeing
if the problem occurs, OR trying to catch the problem while it is happening
and looking at all the signal lines.

>No, he told them to sell the car as it would cost them too much at $85
>per hour to find a problem that didn't produce an error code. They had
>already spent $900. He charged them $300 something for the pump.

So you bought the car and now YOU can spend the money?

>Always the voice of reason. Thanks again, Scott, I'll pack my kit.

Oh, also... don't forget the oxygen sensor! It can cause this sort of
problem, believe it or not. I'm not really sure why. Also, clean all
of the connectors that even LOOK like they might carry sensor signals.
Corrosion on connectors is a big deal.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

>Year, model, engine, transmission?
>
>Bill in Omaha
>'86 535i
>
Sorry, I paniked. It's a 1988 325, auto with the S position on the
shifter, 6 cylinder 2.7L. I think it's motronic but it won't give you
error codes by steping on the gas pedal. 145k miles. It says 325e on
the door sticker but 325 on the rear of the car. The sensors seem to
be present in a mix of '87 an '88. I think this may have been a
change-over year. Thank you.
-----

If you might need a new ECU, let me know the ECU number. I have a couple and
at least 1 is for your car, I believe. I also have a set of wires and maybe
a cap and rotor, plus a few relays. It's all cheap as I no longer have that
car (or can use them on the 535i). Sounds like a relay or sensor. Cross-over
years are a PITA to troubleshoot, too, even with a Bentley.
I'd make a list of what was done before you bought the car and start from
there. Replacement parts from that point are a very short list. Oxygen
sensor would top the list (exhaust smell), clean the Air Flow Meter with
carb cleaner/WD-40, replace fuel pump relay (which also matches a few other
relays in there, so you can switch test with those), fuel filter.
I find my plastic connectors are starting to crumble that go to the crank
position sensor and the other one (RPM, I think). They look like the same
ones as fuel injector connectors. They could be internally corroded or
breaking apart. A sticky AFM internal flap door may be binding, too. You'll
find out when you clean it.

Bill in Omaha
'86 535i
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

Oh, yeah, stalls at stops. I bet it idles a little high when started cold
and the RPMs hunt. The Idle Control Valve may need a cleaning. On top next
to intake manifold, it's a silver cylinder about 5 inches long with a big
hose in and out, maybe like a "T" shape with a 3-pin connector on the other
end.. If it sticks, clean before replacing, it is very expensive.

Bill in Omaha
'86 535i
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

On 22 Dec 2007 10:53:59 -0500, kludge DeleteThis @panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Okay, if this is what I think it is, the ECM is just a little Intel 8051
>with 4K of memory running in a little loop that doesn't do a whole lot
>and has no facility for producing error messages. So you can't look at
>the sensors with an analyzer, you can't pull codes off the ECM, because
>the hardware just isn't in the ECM for that.

This is most definitely a Motronic unit. Don't know where you got
the above description but in the grand scheme of things it's partially
correct. Any ECU that's running a fuel injected engine operates in a
fairly simple fuel mapped mode that uses the oxygen sensor to slightly
modify the fuel injector timing to keep the proper mixture. They use
an array of sensors to determine engine temperature as well as the
position of the crank or cam as a timing reference and to measure the
amount of air the motor is pulling in. If everything is working
properly, the injectors spray the correct amount of fuel at the proper
time and the coil fires the spark plug at the right moment and the
motor runs. Different versions of Motronic have different capabilities
for self diagnostics and use different sensors but they all function
basically the same.

In this case, the motor appears to run well until this occurs. The
original poster has said nothing or the motor searching for idle so I
believe we can remove the suspect of vacuum leaks. Either the Motronic
relay or the fuel pump relay would instantly cause the car to shut
down and not restart. If there is spark, the Motronic relay is not at
fault. The actual ECU would not be at the top of my list. There is a
connector underneath the intake manifold that has a history of
collecting moisture and corroding, check the pins in there to make
sure it's clean. Not sure what signals go through there on your model.
Crank reference sensor on my 89 had a broken wire right at the sensor
itself and until I replaced it and bent the wire back I never knew it.
This caused the car to run fine for a while and then do exactly what
yours is doing. Biggest pain in the ass I ever tried to find. Got one
from a junkyard and changed it (figured at $100 for a new one, what
the hell) and the problem went away. The compound where the wires go
into the back of the sensor was all missing on my original sensor.
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

Michael Yeager wrote:
>On 22 Dec 2007 10:53:59 -0500, kludge.TakeThisOut@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
>>Okay, if this is what I think it is, the ECM is just a little Intel 8051
>>with 4K of memory running in a little loop that doesn't do a whole lot
>>and has no facility for producing error messages. So you can't look at
>>the sensors with an analyzer, you can't pull codes off the ECM, because
>>the hardware just isn't in the ECM for that.
>
> This is most definitely a Motronic unit. Don't know where you got
>the above description but in the grand scheme of things it's partially
>correct.

I got it from taking a bunch of ECUs apart.

>Any ECU that's running a fuel injected engine operates in a
>fairly simple fuel mapped mode that uses the oxygen sensor to slightly
>modify the fuel injector timing to keep the proper mixture. They use
>an array of sensors to determine engine temperature as well as the
>position of the crank or cam as a timing reference and to measure the
>amount of air the motor is pulling in. If everything is working
>properly, the injectors spray the correct amount of fuel at the proper
>time and the coil fires the spark plug at the right moment and the
>motor runs.

Yup.

>Different versions of Motronic have different capabilities
>for self diagnostics and use different sensors but they all function
>basically the same.

What self-diagnostics are in there? According to my dealer mechanic
and one local independant mechanic, there is no error reporting at all
from the earlier Motronic boxes. The later ones have a 3.5mm connector
on the back of the ECU connected to the UART on the 8051, but nobody
seems to have anything that can be plugged into it.

Also there is the "diagnostic connector" under the hood, which appears
only to be useful to provide a spark sensor, TDC sensor, and to reset
the oil change and inspection lights. I don't see any other signals
besides those, at least on my E28. The dealer tech said that there was an
analogue diagnostic machine that plugged into it at one time but that
"nobody has any of those any more."

> In this case, the motor appears to run well until this occurs. The
>original poster has said nothing or the motor searching for idle so I
>believe we can remove the suspect of vacuum leaks. Either the Motronic
>relay or the fuel pump relay would instantly cause the car to shut
>down and not restart. If there is spark, the Motronic relay is not at
>fault. The actual ECU would not be at the top of my list. There is a
>connector underneath the intake manifold that has a history of
>collecting moisture and corroding, check the pins in there to make
>sure it's clean. Not sure what signals go through there on your model.

I agree that the ECU is not high on the list, but the majority of ECU
failures seem to be due to cold solder joints and are easy to diagnose
with a sharp rap.

The multipin connector under the intake is a really good call, I like
that one.

>Crank reference sensor on my 89 had a broken wire right at the sensor
>itself and until I replaced it and bent the wire back I never knew it.
>This caused the car to run fine for a while and then do exactly what
>yours is doing. Biggest pain in the ass I ever tried to find. Got one
>from a junkyard and changed it (figured at $100 for a new one, what
>the hell) and the problem went away. The compound where the wires go
>into the back of the sensor was all missing on my original sensor.

Makes perfect sense. Can you explain why a bad oxygen sensor can cause
the same problem? I have seen a 328 where the sensor wiring was damaged
in such a way that the vehicle would run fine with the sensor removed
(and the ECU presumably ignoring it), but would die intermittently with
misfires with the sensor in place. That one still makes me scratch my
head.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

On 23 Dec 2007 10:13:32 -0500, kludge.RemoveThis@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>>Different versions of Motronic have different capabilities
>>for self diagnostics and use different sensors but they all function
>>basically the same.
>
>What self-diagnostics are in there? According to my dealer mechanic
>and one local independant mechanic, there is no error reporting at all
>from the earlier Motronic boxes. The later ones have a 3.5mm connector
>on the back of the ECU connected to the UART on the 8051, but nobody
>seems to have anything that can be plugged into it.

Your mechanic may be correct on the early boxes. However, they test
the sensors and light the check engine light but you can't get the
code for what sensor is reading bad without a code reader. I have seen
these on EBay as well as a few other sites but don't know what their
capable of. Later versions allow you to read the code on the check
engine light by pressing the accellerator pedal all the way to the
floor five times an a certain amount of time. The ECU then flashes the
check engine light in pulses that can be counted and the code looked
up from there. I see from a later paragraph that you have an E28,
these definitley had an early motronic version. At least it isn't
J-Tronic (what a difference!!!).

>Also there is the "diagnostic connector" under the hood, which appears
>only to be useful to provide a spark sensor, TDC sensor, and to reset
>the oil change and inspection lights. I don't see any other signals
>besides those, at least on my E28. The dealer tech said that there was an
>analogue diagnostic machine that plugged into it at one time but that
>"nobody has any of those any more."

I've wondered what information could be gathered from there but
since I haven't seen much talk about it from the tech community, I
didn't figure it was all that important.

>I agree that the ECU is not high on the list, but the majority of ECU
>failures seem to be due to cold solder joints and are easy to diagnose
>with a sharp rap.

True, worth checking for sure. If it has cold joints, anyone
comfortable with a soldering iron (the proper one for the job) can
reflow the joints and be off and running.

>The multipin connector under the intake is a really good call, I like
>that one.

I've never had a problem with it but I did clean a lot of gunk out
of mine when I had the intake off...

>>Crank reference sensor on my 89 had a broken wire right at the sensor
>>itself and until I replaced it and bent the wire back I never knew it.
>>This caused the car to run fine for a while and then do exactly what
>>yours is doing. Biggest pain in the ass I ever tried to find. Got one
>>from a junkyard and changed it (figured at $100 for a new one, what
>>the hell) and the problem went away. The compound where the wires go
>>into the back of the sensor was all missing on my original sensor.
>
>Makes perfect sense. Can you explain why a bad oxygen sensor can cause
>the same problem? I have seen a 328 where the sensor wiring was damaged
>in such a way that the vehicle would run fine with the sensor removed
>(and the ECU presumably ignoring it), but would die intermittently with
>misfires with the sensor in place. That one still makes me scratch my
>head.
>--scott

Only thing I can think is that the sensor shorted to ground or
became open (whichever causes the ECU to richen the mixture) and the
mixture becomes so rich it won't fire. That's the ONLY thing I can
think of for that. I did see an oxygen sensor so screwed up that as
soon as it got up to operating temp and the ECU tried to go closed
loop and run off the oxygen sensor input the car would flood out and
die. Unplugged it and the check engine light came on but the car ran.
A new sensor (for a 1990 5.0 mustang) solved the problem. $35 for the
sensor and five minutes rewiring the plug beats $90 for the same
sensor with the BMW plug...
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

Michael Yeager wrote:
>On 23 Dec 2007 10:13:32 -0500, kludge.DeleteThis@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>>What self-diagnostics are in there? According to my dealer mechanic
>>and one local independant mechanic, there is no error reporting at all
>>from the earlier Motronic boxes. The later ones have a 3.5mm connector
>>on the back of the ECU connected to the UART on the 8051, but nobody
>>seems to have anything that can be plugged into it.
>
> Your mechanic may be correct on the early boxes. However, they test
>the sensors and light the check engine light but you can't get the
>code for what sensor is reading bad without a code reader. I have seen
>these on EBay as well as a few other sites but don't know what their
>capable of. Later versions allow you to read the code on the check
>engine light by pressing the accellerator pedal all the way to the
>floor five times an a certain amount of time. The ECU then flashes the
>check engine light in pulses that can be counted and the code looked
>up from there. I see from a later paragraph that you have an E28,
>these definitley had an early motronic version. At least it isn't
>J-Tronic (what a difference!!!).

Yes, the E28 has no check engine light. Mine _does_, however, have the
useless 3.5mm jack on the back of the ECU but apparently not all do.

The later units that allow use of a code reader.... where does the code
reader plug in?

>>Also there is the "diagnostic connector" under the hood, which appears
>>only to be useful to provide a spark sensor, TDC sensor, and to reset
>>the oil change and inspection lights. I don't see any other signals
>>besides those, at least on my E28. The dealer tech said that there was an
>>analogue diagnostic machine that plugged into it at one time but that
>>"nobody has any of those any more."
>
> I've wondered what information could be gathered from there but
>since I haven't seen much talk about it from the tech community, I
>didn't figure it was all that important.

I don't think anything much useful can be, other than TDC. Which
admittedly can be a very useful thing to know in conjunction with looking
at other signals.

>>>Crank reference sensor on my 89 had a broken wire right at the sensor
>>>itself and until I replaced it and bent the wire back I never knew it.
>>>This caused the car to run fine for a while and then do exactly what
>>>yours is doing. Biggest pain in the ass I ever tried to find. Got one
>>>from a junkyard and changed it (figured at $100 for a new one, what
>>>the hell) and the problem went away. The compound where the wires go
>>>into the back of the sensor was all missing on my original sensor.
>>
>>Makes perfect sense. Can you explain why a bad oxygen sensor can cause
>>the same problem? I have seen a 328 where the sensor wiring was damaged
>>in such a way that the vehicle would run fine with the sensor removed
>>(and the ECU presumably ignoring it), but would die intermittently with
>>misfires with the sensor in place. That one still makes me scratch my
>>head.
>
> Only thing I can think is that the sensor shorted to ground or
>became open (whichever causes the ECU to richen the mixture) and the
>mixture becomes so rich it won't fire. That's the ONLY thing I can
>think of for that. I did see an oxygen sensor so screwed up that as
>soon as it got up to operating temp and the ECU tried to go closed
>loop and run off the oxygen sensor input the car would flood out and
>die. Unplugged it and the check engine light came on but the car ran.
>A new sensor (for a 1990 5.0 mustang) solved the problem. $35 for the
>sensor and five minutes rewiring the plug beats $90 for the same
>sensor with the BMW plug...

I can see that. That is _very_ rich....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 >> Stay informed about: 325 dies under way,.. 

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:24:41 -0600, "Bill" wrote:

>Oh, yeah, stalls at stops. I bet it idles a little high when started cold
>and the RPMs hunt. The Idle Control Valve may need a cleaning. On top next
>to intake manifold, it's a silver cylinder about 5 inches long with a big
>hose in and out, maybe like a "T" shape with a 3-pin connector on the other
>end.. If it sticks, clean before replacing, it is very expensive.
>
>Bill in Omaha
>'86 535i
>
It seems to idle fine, even when cold. No hunting and quite smooth for
a high miles engine. When it dies, there's no sputtering or trying to
stay alive. It all just stops in mid stroke and you coast along in
silence.
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