freon

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Len G wrote:

> Go into a staples or some place that sells compressed air, if it doesn't
> say environmentally friend then read the whole label chances are its
> 134a, go to an electronics supply house, not radio shack, though they
> might have it and look for some component cooler or freeze spray, again
> its 134a.

The stuff sold as air dusters is often R134a, but doing as you implicitly
suggest and charging it into an A/C system is foolhardy. Why? Because it's
not even close to being pure or dry. It doesn't have to be, for dusting
the Oreo crumbs out of your keyboard. It DOES have to be, for use in an
A/C system. Charging an A/C system with wet/impure refrigerant is a
sure-fire recipe for expensive system damage. After the filter-dryer is
saturated and can sequester no more moisture -- which is not at all
difficult; the dryer is not meant to handle more than tiny amounts of
residual moisture -- the remaining moisture reacts with the refrigerant at
high temperatures to form aggressive Hydrofluoric acid, which eats thin
aluminum voraciously (evaporator, condenser). Moisture also freezes in
TXVs and orifice tubes, causing a clog that reduces system performance to
near zero and sends head pressure skyrocketing. And finally, all the
impurities in duster-grade gas further reduce system performance as
noncondensibles.

Putting duster-grade R134a in an A/C system is *almost* as poor an idea as
charging an A/C system with camping fuel, for the same (wet/impure)
reason. The camping fuel idea is somewhat more knotheaded, for reasons
that have already been done to death in this forum.

DS (waiting for those two idiots to make vague and unsupported assertions)
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Coasty wrote:
>
>
>>>Perhaps you'd like to point out specifically where Daniel is in error.
>
>
>>He was wrong in several areas, EPA however has approved Freeze12 as a
>>replacement
>
>
> I never *ever* disputed this.
>
>
>>I hold a Masters HVAC license and Stern just really does not have any
>>practical knowledge.
>
>
> You have no idea how much practical knowledge I have.
>

Oh brother. (rolls eyes)
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

>
> The stuff sold as air dusters is often R134a, ...

It really gets me that it's illegal (in the U.S., at least) to vent R134
from a car's A/C system but there's no problem with venting it from those
'air' dusters and other products in which it's used as a propellant. From
what I understand, you can't buy R134 at all in Canada without a license
but those dusters. etc. that use it are OK for anyone to buy & use.
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005, Z.Z. wrote:

> Daniel J. Stern wrote:

> It really gets me that it's illegal (in the U.S., at least) to vent R134
> from a car's A/C system but there's no problem with venting it from
> those 'air' dusters and other products in which it's used as a
> propellant.

It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper procedures
being followed -- to say nothing of accidental CFC releases -- in the
field.

> From what I understand, you can't buy R134 at all in Canada without a
> license but those dusters. etc. that use it are OK for anyone to buy &
> use.

True. Canada's auto A/C regulations are more restrictive than those of the
US. It's illegal in Canada, for instance, to charge an auto A/C system
with R12. If an R12 system needs to be evacuated to make a repair, it may
not legally be refilled with R12.
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

In article <IOWdne1kf-2EFkrfRVn-vA RemoveThis @comcast.com>,
"Coasty" <uscg_retSPOOGE RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> Must be Sterns bitch enough said!

Your computer seems to have run out of comma's and apostrophe's.
Please visit your local grade school for a free re-fill.

Or; you -could- take the route where you don't look like such a
blow hard and answer the questions that I posed.

1) Show where Daniel Stern stated that Freeze-12 was not an
approved substitute for R-12.

2) Explain how wholesalers and/or retailers obtain supplies of
R-12 in your state and avoid "losing everything."
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

In article <oKmdnbV1pN3anEXfRVn-tQ.RemoveThis@comcast.com>,
"maxpower" <damnnickname.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> LOL Bingo!!!

You can go hump your sock puppet now...
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

Daniel J. Stern wrote:

>
> It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
> think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
> conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper
> procedures being followed ...

I guess that could be a consideration. But it seems to me that if the
goal truly is to limit the emission of (supposedly) ozone-depleting
and/or greenhouse gasses there'd be some limits on using them in aerosol
cans as well. I mean, most automotive A/C system hold, what?, a couple
pounds of refrigerant, mostly r-134 these days. Even assuming that all
that 134 will eventually leak out, how much more will be emitted from
spray cans over the same time period? The 134 in your car's A/C should
last several years, barring some catastrophic failure. In that time,
you'll likely release many times that amount in propellant in the various
spray cans you use...deoderant, spray paint, canned 'air', etc. I'd think
that over a given time period, many time more r-134 would be released
from spray cans than from car A/C systems. But then, laws aren't always
made based on valid scientific knowledge or logic...

>
> True. Canada's auto A/C regulations are more restrictive than those of
> the US. It's illegal in Canada, for instance, to charge an auto A/C
> system with R12. If an R12 system needs to be evacuated to make a
> repair, it may not legally be refilled with R12.

I didn't know that. See the last sentence in my previous paragraph.
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

"Z.Z." <nobody RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9694CBDCE27B1nobodynowhere@68.6.19.6...
> Daniel J. Stern wrote:
>
> >
> > It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
> > think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
> > conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper
> > procedures being followed ...
>
> I guess that could be a consideration. But it seems to me that if the
> goal truly is to limit the emission of (supposedly) ozone-depleting
> and/or greenhouse gasses there'd be some limits on using them in aerosol
> cans as well. I mean, most automotive A/C system hold, what?, a couple
> pounds of refrigerant, mostly r-134 these days. Even assuming that all
> that 134 will eventually leak out, how much more will be emitted from
> spray cans over the same time period? The 134 in your car's A/C should
> last several years, barring some catastrophic failure. In that time,
> you'll likely release many times that amount in propellant in the various
> spray cans you use...deoderant, spray paint, canned 'air', etc. I'd think
> that over a given time period, many time more r-134 would be released
> from spray cans than from car A/C systems. But then, laws aren't always
> made based on valid scientific knowledge or logic...
>

Oh, it's even worse than that. I've got a can here, Chemtronics Freez-IT,
the label says 100% R134a. Next to it is another can Falcon Dust Off
Freeze Spray, same thing. You can go to Fry's and they have pallets of
the stuff they sell for a couple bucks to the general public. Both these
are intended to be used to find thermal problems in electronic gear. I
use them in the shop when freeing stuck bolts - heat the thing the bolt is
stuck in up with a propane torch, then when it's good and hot, soak the
bolt in Freeze Spray and remove.

And not only is R134a used in these products, it's also used in blown-in
insulation and a lot of other products where it quickly outgasses to the
atmosphere.

And as far as R12 goes, what everyone seems to miss is that as time
passes the R12 that is evacuated from existing refrigerant systems and
is reclaimed, it is going to be sold again, then used to fill auto A/C
systems which ultimately will leak. This process will continue until
there are no more cars that take R12, which probably will take another
20 years to have happen. But once it does happen the price of R12
will drop, and eventually people will be sitting on old R12 that has
become worthless, then where do you think it will go? Do you think
people will pay to dispose of it? I doubt it I think they will landfill it
and ultimately the containers will rust and the R12 will escape.

The only way to truly get R12 out of the environment is to burn it
on the ground in an incinerator, or allow it to escape where eventually
natural processes in the stratosphere will destroy it. And, nobody is
burning R12 in incinerators now, (it's worth too much) and I can
almost guarentee that most R12 in use now will never end up
incinerated.

And the same thing is going to happen to the R134a that is produced.

The only way to stop the release of refrigerant is to stop manufacturing
it. All the laws on releasing R134a and R12 while servicing A/C systems
are merely feel-good, they simply delay the inevitable. Sooner or later
no matter how many charge/reclaim/charge cycles that a pound of
R134a or R12 goes through, it will inevitably end up in an auto system that
goes bad and leaks.

The only A/C servicing laws that do any good at all are the ones that
make it illegal to fill a R134a system that you know has a serious leak in
it
(as opposed to a potential leak that may happen in the future) as
these help to slow down the global consumption of R134a by a slight
amount.


Ted
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

"aarcuda69062" <nonelson.DeleteThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-106C81.20111615072005@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com...
> In article <IOWdne1kf-2EFkrfRVn-vA.DeleteThis@comcast.com>,
> "Coasty" <uscg_retSPOOGE.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Must be Sterns bitch enough said!
>
> Your computer seems to have run out of comma's and apostrophe's.
> Please visit your local grade school for a free re-fill.
>
> Or; you -could- take the route where you don't look like such a
> blow hard and answer the questions that I posed.
>
> 1) Show where Daniel Stern stated that Freeze-12 was not an
> approved substitute for R-12.
>
> 2) Explain how wholesalers and/or retailers obtain supplies of
> R-12 in your state and avoid "losing everything."

No explanation needed the Law is the Law, I do not need to get into a
dissertation about my particular State Laws to have them rebuffed or argued
against the laws are what they are. You either follow them or suffer the
consequences.

It is funny that both yourself and Stern just love to argue I think it is
because both of you just like to argue and love to hear your own din.
--
Coasty
SEMPER PARATUS
(ALWAYS READY)

Remove The SPOOGE To Reply
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:38:47 -0700, "Ted Mittelstaedt"
<tedm.TakeThisOut@toybox.placo.com> wrote:

>
>"Z.Z." <nobody.TakeThisOut@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns9694CBDCE27B1nobodynowhere@68.6.19.6...
>> Daniel J. Stern wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > It seems inconsistent, but it makes sense -- more or less -- when you
>> > think about it. One single rule (you may not vent gas from auto air
>> > conditioners, period) greatly reduces the chances of improper
>> > procedures being followed ...
>>
>> I guess that could be a consideration. But it seems to me that if the
>> goal truly is to limit the emission of (supposedly) ozone-depleting
>> and/or greenhouse gasses there'd be some limits on using them in aerosol
>> cans as well. I mean, most automotive A/C system hold, what?, a couple
>> pounds of refrigerant, mostly r-134 these days. Even assuming that all
>> that 134 will eventually leak out, how much more will be emitted from
>> spray cans over the same time period? The 134 in your car's A/C should
>> last several years, barring some catastrophic failure. In that time,
>> you'll likely release many times that amount in propellant in the various
>> spray cans you use...deoderant, spray paint, canned 'air', etc. I'd think
>> that over a given time period, many time more r-134 would be released
>> from spray cans than from car A/C systems. But then, laws aren't always
>> made based on valid scientific knowledge or logic...
>>
>
>Oh, it's even worse than that. I've got a can here, Chemtronics Freez-IT,
>the label says 100% R134a. Next to it is another can Falcon Dust Off
>Freeze Spray, same thing. You can go to Fry's and they have pallets of
>the stuff they sell for a couple bucks to the general public. Both these
>are intended to be used to find thermal problems in electronic gear. I
>use them in the shop when freeing stuck bolts - heat the thing the bolt is
>stuck in up with a propane torch, then when it's good and hot, soak the
>bolt in Freeze Spray and remove.
>
>And not only is R134a used in these products, it's also used in blown-in
>insulation and a lot of other products where it quickly outgasses to the
>atmosphere.
>
>And as far as R12 goes, what everyone seems to miss is that as time
>passes the R12 that is evacuated from existing refrigerant systems and
>is reclaimed, it is going to be sold again, then used to fill auto A/C
>systems which ultimately will leak. This process will continue until
>there are no more cars that take R12, which probably will take another
>20 years to have happen. But once it does happen the price of R12
>will drop, and eventually people will be sitting on old R12 that has
>become worthless, then where do you think it will go? Do you think
>people will pay to dispose of it? I doubt it I think they will landfill it
>and ultimately the containers will rust and the R12 will escape.
>
>The only way to truly get R12 out of the environment is to burn it
>on the ground in an incinerator, or allow it to escape where eventually
>natural processes in the stratosphere will destroy it. And, nobody is
>burning R12 in incinerators now, (it's worth too much) and I can
>almost guarentee that most R12 in use now will never end up
>incinerated.
>
>And the same thing is going to happen to the R134a that is produced.
>
>The only way to stop the release of refrigerant is to stop manufacturing
>it. All the laws on releasing R134a and R12 while servicing A/C systems
>are merely feel-good, they simply delay the inevitable. Sooner or later
>no matter how many charge/reclaim/charge cycles that a pound of
>R134a or R12 goes through, it will inevitably end up in an auto system that
>goes bad and leaks.
>
>The only A/C servicing laws that do any good at all are the ones that
>make it illegal to fill a R134a system that you know has a serious leak in
>it
>(as opposed to a potential leak that may happen in the future) as
>these help to slow down the global consumption of R134a by a slight
>amount.
>
>
>Ted
>


Assuming the environment has some capacity to "digest" the r12 either
by chemical means or simply because it just dissipates into space, the
longer you drag out the release, the less damaging the R12 (and any
other refrigerant) will be. So I don't see it as just "delay" but as
a "taking longer" so it allows natural processes more time to take
care of things.
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

What you want is completely illegal. The fittings are made incompatible
for a reason- to prevent inadvertent cross-contamination between
refrigerant types. To convert to R-134a, you need to change the fittings
(and buy the correct adaptor hoses for your guage set, available at any
A/C supply house), flush the system, replace the laundry list of
incompatible parts (mainly the drier and some O-rings) and fill with
R-134a compatible oil.

Don't use the "conversion kits" they sell in stores- those are
compressor-destruction-in-a-can.


tom wrote:

> I would like to find r12 substitute for my old a/c system.
> Local stores in the LA area pep boys, auto Zone, etc, say I need a
> license to buy the environmentally safe stuff, yet is available online
> with no such requirement.
>
> Questions:
> Are there really any restrictions on the e-safe stuff?
>
> How do I get this into an old system? All the new cans appear to be
> the r134 screw on type, rather than the puncture top cans.
> I don't want to replace my valves because my old type pressure gauges
> will not work with the newer valves.
>
> What I would like is a filler hose with the newer type tap end for
> the can, and an attachment that can be used to fill my existing system
> thru the original valves on the compressor. This would enable me to
> use R134 leak detector, as well as envirosafe, or some such similar
> product to recharge the system.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Tony
 >> Stay informed about: freon 

maxpower wrote:

>>
> Don't waste your time on him, Its an ego thing that he has. Do like most
> people do here and that is to ignore his stupidity

Even if the above slander were true, Dan's right and "Coasty" is wrong
on this one.
 >> Stay informed about: freon