Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like ..

They could make a very good BMW clone but to achieve a truly comparable car
(suspension, electronics etc), their cost would be very close to that of a
BMW.

"elmo" wrote in message

 > I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
 > say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
 > car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
 > mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
 > BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
 > that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
 > parts, etc.
 >
 > If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because
of
 > patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
 > BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
 >
 > Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
 > enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
 > want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
 > flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car
that
 > drives exactly like one.
 >
 > what do u guys think?
 >
 >
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

From: elmo (m@vfd.com)
Subject: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a
BMW?
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw, alt.autos.lexus, alt.autos.toyota,
rec.autos.makers.honda
Date: 2003-09-10 11:58:35 PST

It is difference in engineering and production cost, my friend. The
way BMW manufactures their cars is substantially different from great
Japanese companies namely, Toyota and Honda. If Toyota starts putting
technology in a Corolla that is more or less the same that is found
BMW, it would end up costing the customer after the profit margin
almost the same as a BMW 3 series. Now, that does not necessarily mean
that the reliability of German cars is better than Japanese. Far from
that. Nevertheless, the fit, finish and quality of all the components
used in the car ( BMW uses laser etching to even out the body for that
perfect finishing) is what separates the German cars from the rest of
the flock. Although, the compact car division is getting so
competitive the new models (2004 Corolla, for instance. I have driven
four Corolla models my dad's 1982/83 in my mid teens about 8 years
ago, 1995, 1999 and now my own new 2004 Corolla Sport) is a massive
improvement over the predecessor models. No one could have predicted
the quality and cutting edge technology I expect the same with the
next Honda Civic as well and who knows one day they will have cars in
compact category that can stand next to a BMW or Audi 1.8T.

Best wishes,

Faisal A Sheikh



"elmo" wrote in message ...
 > I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
 > say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according to
 > car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
 > mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of a
 > BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
 > that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
 > parts, etc.
 >
 > If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because of
 > patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
 > BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
 >
 > Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
 > enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
 > want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
 > flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car that
 > drives exactly like one.
 >
 > what do u guys think?
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

"elmo" wrote in message

 > I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
 > say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
 > car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
 > mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
 > BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry?

Well, that's kind of what Nissan did with the Datsun 510...
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

I think the answers pretty much summarize it. To borrow a phrase from
the 19th century Robber Baron era, Toyota (and GM and BMW too) is not
in business to make cars-- it's in business to make money. It just
happens to make money by making cars.

I suspect that the engineers knew exactly what they were doing when
they designed the IS. I test drove a 330 and an IS and gave my
decision a lot of thought. I'm no racer-boy, but my limited driving
impression was that the IS was actually hotter than the 3-series. By
my subjective judgement it seemed able to pull more Gs, its ride was
more taught (read stiff), and there was less body lean. I couldn't
compare raw acceleration since I drove an auto Lexus and a manual BMW,
but they seemed pretty close.

On the other hand, the BMW definitely was a more sophisticated car.
It's rear seat, while by no means roomy, was a bit roomier than the
IS, as was its trunk. Its lines were more elegant while maintaining a
dashing appearance, the interior materials were of higher quality, the
exterior colors were something aimed at an adult as opposed to a
16-year old moving up from a "pocket rocket", and the "little things"
were better-- an example would be the gas struts in the hood and trunk
instead of a prop-rod and gooseneck hinges.

I thought about the choice a lot and in the end decided that while the
BMW was probably a little nicer car, when all was said and done it
would cost $5-6000 more than a comparably equipped IS, and it wouldn't
be as reliable to boot. I could afford to cough up $40k for a 330,
but the car just wasn't worth it. The car seemed grossly overpriced.
Combine the substantial extra money for the Bimmer with the legendary
Toyota/Lexus reliability and on balance the choice turned out to be a
no-brainer for me. I bought the IS and haven't thought twice about it
since.

My guess is that the Toyota engineers knew that, and I was exactly the
customer they were looking for.

Back in the early 1980s, before Lexus, Acura and Infiniti started
nipping on their heels, someone once asked a representative of
Mercedes what they thought of the Japanese cars. Merc could afford to
be honest, since they didn't yet perceive Japan, Inc to be a threat,
so they said something like "for us, cost isn't that much of an
object, but we never cease to be amazed at how they manage to build
cars with the quality and features they do while selling them for that
price."

That about sums it up-- Japan Inc builds their customer base by being
a lot more reliable, just about as good, and substantially less
expensive. Why should they throw all that out in pursuit of the last
1%??

That said, I do think that the Japanese couldn't design a car as
beautiful as the Europeans if you gave them 100 years and infinite
money to do it. Why they don't just give up and hire European
stylists and designers is a mystery to me, although I suspect the
answer is very similar to my answer above-- it's just not worth it to
them.

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:58:25 UTC, "elmo" wrote:

 > I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
 > say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according to
 > car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
 > mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of a
 > BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
 > that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
 > parts, etc.
 >
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:45:53 UTC, wrote:
 > a
  > > BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry?
 >
 > Well, that's kind of what Nissan did with the Datsun 510...
 >
 >

I had one 30 years ago. You're right-- it was known as the "Poor
Man's BMW"
--
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

If you want a BMW why not just buy one?

Jack

"elmo" wrote in message

 > I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
 > say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
 > car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
 > mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
 > BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
 > that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
 > parts, etc.
 >
 > If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because
of
 > patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
 > BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
 >
 > Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
 > enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
 > want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
 > flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car
that
 > drives exactly like one.
 >
 > what do u guys think?
 >
 >
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

"Jack G" wrote in message

 > If you want a BMW why not just buy one?
 >
 > Jack
 >

Because BMW reliability is not that great.
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

 >I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
 >say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according to
 >car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
 >mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of a
 >BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
 >that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
 >parts, etc.
 >

I've read (nope, can't quote the source at present but am pretty sure about
this) a car mag comparison test that put the Infinite G35 above the 3-series
BMW. Also, the latest Automobile magazine test (October '03) of $30k sport
sedans ranks the Acura TSX #1, followed by the 325i, followed by the G35. So
one answer to your question is that you can make the argument that the Japanese
automakers are already making cars competitive with the 3-series.

Also, regarding Honda in particular, to exactly copy the 3-series they'd have
to get into rear-wheel drive, which isn't what they do. Since they already
have lots of models where they can easily sell every car they make (Odyssey,
CR-V, Pilot are examples), why make that gigantic investment to compete (with a
rear-drive product) in a limited market that's already kinda crowded?

Finally, why copy the BMW engine? Speaking as an '02 325i owner and having
owned two Maximas, I'd say that if you want to copy an engine go with the
Nissan V-6. Performance and smoothness is great! (I'm not saying that the
Maxima is in general competitive with the 325i, I'm just talking about the
engine.) Also, take a look at gas mileage: the Nissan delivers 260 hp while
getting 20 mpg city, while the BMW also gets 20 mpg city so it uses the same
amount of fuel to put out 184 hp. (G35 also puts out 260 hp while getting 20
mpg city.) So, the Japanese are giving their customers a much better power/mpg
mix than BMW. So why copy the BMW engine?

Regards,

Tom in PA
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

They could make one, but remember - BMWs are not really any
more reliable than GMs. Good, but not great.

All that performance comes at a price, afterall. A bit
lighter weight here, a bit higher revving engine there...
Unless you want to get a Mercedes AMG model, and pay upwards
of 50K, then you "settle" for a AMG lite(aka BMW for $15K less).
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

totally agreed, my opinion is that the look and appeal of the IS300 is
terribly immature and juvenile compared with the BMW line. I bought the
ES300 because my wife thought the IS300 was atrocious looking. In theory,
that's the class of car for me, but Lexus dumbed it down too much.


"elmo" wrote in message

 > I mean what's stopping them from making an exact mechanical copy of a lets
 > say 3 series? I know the Lexus IS is aimed at the 3 series but according
to
 > car magazines its not quite the 3er...why not? After all a car is mostly
 > mechanical components. If Lexus wants the ride and handling qualities of
a
 > BMW why don't they jus copy the exact suspension geometry? If they like
 > that engine, then open the BMW engine up and make an exact copy of the
 > parts, etc.
 >
 > If computer makers copied the IBM PC through reverse engineering (because
of
 > patents, etc) why cant car makers just copy each other flat out? I'm sure
 > BMW doesn't have some patent on the suspension geometry.
 >
 > Does Toyota know something we don't? I mean, it's mostly us driving
 > enthusiast that want a car that drives like a BMW, but does the avg. Joe
 > want to drive a car that has the "bmw ride"? Maybe not. But if Lexus is
 > flat out aiming at the 3er, then I don't know why they cant make a car
that
 > drives exactly like one.
 >
 > what do u guys think?
 >
 >
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

Falling asleep through elmo's post...

 > what do u guys think?

Don't think they need to. They are trying to with that Lexus, but they
make thier money with bread and butter cars like Corollas and the new
trucks.

--
"If you can't change a tire, you're not allowed to have a beard. It's the
most basic part of a car: If you don't know that much about a car, you
really shouldn't be driving, should you?" - Jimmy Kimmel
<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.cafeshops.com/creexul.2534632" target="_blank">http://www.cafeshops.com/creexul.2534632</a>
Owner of Henry Cotter, apparently not the first,
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8&q=author:manofhour%40webtv.net+
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

"FaisalCorollaS" wrote in message


 > Subject: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a
 > BMW?
 > This is the only article in this thread
 > View: Original Format
 > Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw, alt.autos.lexus, alt.autos.toyota,
 > rec.autos.makers.honda
 > Date: 2003-09-10 11:58:35 PST
 >
 > It is difference in engineering and production cost, my friend. The
 > way BMW manufactures their cars is substantially different from great
 > Japanese companies namely, Toyota and Honda. If Toyota starts putting
 > technology in a Corolla that is more or less the same that is found
 > BMW, it would end up costing the customer after the profit margin
 > almost the same as a BMW 3 series. Now, that does not necessarily mean
 > that the reliability of German cars is better than Japanese. Far from
 > that. Nevertheless, the fit, finish and quality of all the components
 > used in the car ( BMW uses laser etching to even out the body for that
 > perfect finishing) is what separates the German cars from the rest of
 > the flock. Although, the compact car division is getting so
 > competitive the new models (2004 Corolla, for instance. I have driven
 > four Corolla models my dad's 1982/83 in my mid teens about 8 years
 > ago, 1995, 1999 and now my own new 2004 Corolla Sport) is a massive
 > improvement over the predecessor models. No one could have predicted
 > the quality and cutting edge technology I expect the same with the
 > next Honda Civic as well and who knows one day they will have cars in
 > compact category that can stand next to a BMW or Audi 1.8T.
 >
 > Best wishes,
 >
 > Faisal A Sheikh
 >

But you are comparing a corolla and a 3er. What i'm saying is, when Lexus
decided to build a "3 series killer" which is the IS and came short (based
on opinion ofcourse) of making a car which is as fun to drive as the
3er...i'm sure Lexus engineers realized that the IS was no 3er killer when
they had the prototype, it was a good alternative to it because of the
cheaper price and higher reliability, but I'm sure that they were not
focusing on building a car that is 2nd in the fun to drive category (the
reason people buy BMWs) and first in quality and value. Why didn't they
just do a mechanical copy of the 3er to start of with and then beat BMW by
offering the car w/ a lower price and higher quality (which they can easily
do w/ more efficient production)? And I don't buy the argument that BMW
uses higher quality components Vs. Toyota, infact its quite the opposite.
How many electrical problems do people exp. w/ Mercedes and BMW's Vs.
Toyota, Im sure the problem rate w/ BMW components (mostly made by Bosch) is
much higher then a toyota (mostly made by denso). Anyone making an argument
that BMW employees a higher quality standard (including in production)
compared to Lexus has to be smoking some real good shit.
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like .. 

I have sat inside a 6 speed manual transmission IS 300 and to be
honest with you, I would prefer it over a BMW 3 series any day. Apart
from the prestige point of BMW, the IS 300 has the greatest interior I
have ever seen. I would know that with a Lexus, I would be getting the
Toyota reliability and all the luxury and quality that I could imagine
in a luxury car since it is all that and more. The car was so powerful
that when the Toyota Sales guy floored it, I almost had a heart
failure. Believe me, it is that fast. I know now how people perceive
cars. They perceive it as a commodity to inflate their egos while
everyone else drools at the car as you pass by. That is where the IS
300 falls behind. When a Lexus passes by, people would say "yeah it is
a Lexus, great car, but not that hot a car". When they see a label of
BMW pasted on any car, they go "holy smokes!!!! it is a BMW, this is
the coolest car on the block". Even if the car is technologically
heaps of trash. The name BMW will do the trick. It is no secret
anymore that 5-7 years down the road, Japanese cars fair better than
German cars in terms of reliability and cost of maintenance and
service. That is so unfortunate. sigh!


Best Regards,

"elmo" wrote in message ...



  > > Subject: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like a
  > > BMW?
  > > This is the only article in this thread
  > > View: Original Format
  > > Newsgroups: alt.autos.bmw, alt.autos.lexus, alt.autos.toyota,
  > > rec.autos.makers.honda
  > > Date: 2003-09-10 11:58:35 PST
  > >
  > > It is difference in engineering and production cost, my friend. The
  > > way BMW manufactures their cars is substantially different from great
  > > Japanese companies namely, Toyota and Honda. If Toyota starts putting
  > > technology in a Corolla that is more or less the same that is found
  > > BMW, it would end up costing the customer after the profit margin
  > > almost the same as a BMW 3 series. Now, that does not necessarily mean
  > > that the reliability of German cars is better than Japanese. Far from
  > > that. Nevertheless, the fit, finish and quality of all the components
  > > used in the car ( BMW uses laser etching to even out the body for that
  > > perfect finishing) is what separates the German cars from the rest of
  > > the flock. Although, the compact car division is getting so
  > > competitive the new models (2004 Corolla, for instance. I have driven
  > > four Corolla models my dad's 1982/83 in my mid teens about 8 years
  > > ago, 1995, 1999 and now my own new 2004 Corolla Sport) is a massive
  > > improvement over the predecessor models. No one could have predicted
  > > the quality and cutting edge technology I expect the same with the
  > > next Honda Civic as well and who knows one day they will have cars in
  > > compact category that can stand next to a BMW or Audi 1.8T.
  > >
  > > Best wishes,
  > >
  > > Faisal A Sheikh
  > >
 >
 > But you are comparing a corolla and a 3er. What i'm saying is, when Lexus
 > decided to build a "3 series killer" which is the IS and came short (based
 > on opinion ofcourse) of making a car which is as fun to drive as the
 > 3er...i'm sure Lexus engineers realized that the IS was no 3er killer when
 > they had the prototype, it was a good alternative to it because of the
 > cheaper price and higher reliability, but I'm sure that they were not
 > focusing on building a car that is 2nd in the fun to drive category (the
 > reason people buy BMWs) and first in quality and value. Why didn't they
 > just do a mechanical copy of the 3er to start of with and then beat BMW by
 > offering the car w/ a lower price and higher quality (which they can easily
 > do w/ more efficient production)? And I don't buy the argument that BMW
 > uses higher quality components Vs. Toyota, infact its quite the opposite.
 > How many electrical problems do people exp. w/ Mercedes and BMW's Vs.
 > Toyota, Im sure the problem rate w/ BMW components (mostly made by Bosch) is
 > much higher then a toyota (mostly made by denso). Anyone making an argument
 > that BMW employees a higher quality standard (including in production)
 > compared to Lexus has to be smoking some real good shit.
 >> Stay informed about: Why cant Toyota or Honda make a car that drives just like ..