RWD BMW's

"Michael Low" wrote in message

 >
 > WS-50s are true SNOW TIRES. Dunlop Wintersport M3s are performance WINTER
 > tires.

WS-50s are Q rated tires that manage to squirm uncomfortably even in snow
because of their porous and highly flexible tread cap ply and soft
sidewalls. Their road feel convinces *me* that I don't want to exceed their
maximum speed rating of 99 mph even on dry roads.

Wintersport M3s are *V rated* tires that feel like actual *tires* when used
on vehicles where one can tell the difference. My wife even likes them (a
16" Minus One fitment) better than the 17" OEM Pirellis on her Jaguar X-Type
Sport. While I, as a diehard performance freak, will always prefer the
Pirellis, or something like them, I find the M3s a perfectly acceptable
winter solution. When (*IF*) the thing ever crashes or gets stuck because
it didn't have enough 'tire', I'll be sure to let you know. Until then,
don't try to keep up on Blizzaks ...
--
C.R. Krieger
(Been there; drove that)
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"C.R. Krieger" wrote in message ...


  > >
  > > WS-50s are true SNOW TIRES. Dunlop Wintersport M3s are performance WINTER
  > > tires.
 >
 > WS-50s are Q rated tires that manage to squirm uncomfortably even in snow
 > because of their porous and highly flexible tread cap ply and soft
 > sidewalls. Their road feel convinces *me* that I don't want to exceed their
 > maximum speed rating of 99 mph even on dry roads.
 >
 > Wintersport M3s are *V rated* tires that feel like actual *tires* when used
 > on vehicles where one can tell the difference. My wife even likes them (a
 > 16" Minus One fitment) better than the 17" OEM Pirellis on her Jaguar X-Type
 > Sport. While I, as a diehard performance freak, will always prefer the
 > Pirellis, or something like them, I find the M3s a perfectly acceptable
 > winter solution. When (*IF*) the thing ever crashes or gets stuck because
 > it didn't have enough 'tire', I'll be sure to let you know. Until then,
 > don't try to keep up on Blizzaks ...


I hear ya.

I feel the same thing about running "real" tires even if they are less
suited for deep snow or slush - I was too cheap to pony up for Dunlop
M2s but did get Goodyear Ultra Grip GW2s (also V-rated) for my 17-inch
Style 5s. They're not bad for grip and they never squirm. Yes, I
(had to) exceed 100 mph on them a few times.

I think Dunlop M3s are the best of the performance Winter tires.


Michael
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In article , Michael Low wrote:



   >> >
   >> > WS-50s are true SNOW TIRES. Dunlop Wintersport M3s are performance WINTER
   >> > tires.

 > I feel the same thing about running "real" tires even if they are less
 > suited for deep snow or slush - I was too cheap to pony up for Dunlop
 > M2s but did get Goodyear Ultra Grip GW2s (also V-rated) for my 17-inch
 > Style 5s. They're not bad for grip and they never squirm. Yes, I
 > (had to) exceed 100 mph on them a few times.
 >
 > I think Dunlop M3s are the best of the performance Winter tires.

FWIW I saw ten minutes of 125-140mph running on Dunlop M2s a couple
years ago, still alive to write about *that* bad idea.
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"Michael Scheer" wrote in message

 > Fallacy: FWD is "better" in slippery conditions.
 >
 > Things are more complicated than that. FWD with marginal tires gives
 > you a better chance of getting up an incline than RWD with marginal
 > tires (especially if you have the smarts to back up the incline with
 > the FWD car). Trying to recover from a skid in the same, nose-heavy
 > FWD car will be a challenge, whatever the tires. Etc.

Generally speaking I think it's easier to both avoid a skid and get out of
trouble in a FWD, within a certain envelope, when you are used to it. The
worst thing is when a RWD driver tries to apply his learned skills in the
FWD situation, they often just don't work. Having spent years each in RWD,
FWD, RWD, FWD, and finally AWD, there are a set of skills that are easy to
develop in a FWD to stay out of, and get out of trouble. They are different
from RWD and AWD. I would say that RWD skid recovery is different, and a
bit harder to master, more demanding in its exactness, but much more
versatile. And way, way more fun once it's mastered. I always test and
learn the limits of every car I own and have learned that they all work
quite a bit differently.

FWD gets into a skid differently and gets out differently. Most often it's
an understeer issue in FWD, and just about any modulation of the gas pedal
will get you out of it if you haven't completely overcooked it for the
conditions. Proper application of the brakes in some of these situations
can actually help you as it loads the front wheels and helps them grip.
In RWD it's oversteer, you can keep the power on and countersteer, or let
the gas up and try to recover your line using whatever road remains. But if
you hit the brakes you usually come around fast.

So they're different. I think the novice is better off in the FWD. The
panic reaction of lift throttle or apply brakes is more likely to work in
FWD than RWD.


-Russ.
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Somebody wrote:


[snip]

 > The panic reaction of lift throttle or apply brakes is more likely
  > to work in FWD than RWD.
 >
 >
 > -Russ.

I beg to differ. When FWD car starts wagging it's tail in slippery
conditions, lifting throttle (which I agree is normal reaction)
is ticket off the road. Engine brakes front wheels, spin is guaranteed.

Erik
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"Erik Saarts" wrote in message

 > Somebody wrote:

 >
 > [snip]
 >
  > > The panic reaction of lift throttle or apply brakes is more likely
  > > to work in FWD than RWD.
  > >
  > >
  > > -Russ.
 >
 > I beg to differ. When FWD car starts wagging it's tail in slippery
 > conditions, lifting throttle (which I agree is normal reaction)
 > is ticket off the road. Engine brakes front wheels, spin is guaranteed.
 >
 > Erik
 >

Depends on the car I would think, most of mine had terminal understeer
rather than tail wagging. The exception for me was an older Chrysler
minivan whose rear brakes locked up all the time, but that thing was a
travesty in snow no matter what you did. But I've never had a problem with
any of my other FWD cars doing a tail wag -- a case in which I agree with
you, lift throttle would be bad.

-Russ.
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On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:37:13 -0500, "Somebody"
wrote:


 >Depends on the car I would think,
 >-Russ.

Depends on your point in the turn as well.
Before the apex, your inertia is generating understeer conditions in
both RWD and FWD. Lifting off in the RWD serves you, hinders you in
the FWD. After the apex, throttle widens the line in FWD, tightens the
line in RWD. There are no hard fast rules in this debate, but that
lots of practice in whatever car you drive will make it a lot more fun
and safe.
Colin
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Colin wrote in message ...
 > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:37:13 -0500, "Somebody"

 >
 >
  > >Depends on the car I would think,
  > >-Russ.
 >
 > Depends on your point in the turn as well.
 > Before the apex, your inertia is generating understeer conditions in
 > both RWD and FWD. Lifting off in the RWD serves you, hinders you in
 > the FWD. After the apex, throttle widens the line in FWD, tightens the
 > line in RWD. There are no hard fast rules in this debate, but that
 > lots of practice in whatever car you drive will make it a lot more fun
 > and safe.
 > Colin

Yes, I agree. It's very important to note where you are in the turn.

I'd also like to point out driver response also differs when the
vehicle has LOST traction. What is also very different is how RWD and
FWD vehicles behave AFTER initial loss of traction.

I found my FWD VW Scirocco (the last incarnation of such) very
dangerous to manage in a winter skid. It was essentially impossible
to control after traction was lost and it went sideways or 180°
alarmingly fast once traction was lost, even at moderate speeds. It
was unpredictable.

IMO, while RWD vehicles have less traction in slippery conditions they
also encourage moderate use of throttle in marginal conditions, retain
front end traction and can be controlled by modulating rear-end
traction with clutch, throttle and/or handbrake, so thus tend not to
suddenly spin or spin very much unless the driver is clueless or
suicidal.

With FWD, you're essentially hapless as the spin completes so fast
even when caused by light throttle. You have no time to intervene.
This "Jekyll and Hyde" nature may partially account for why so many
FWD and AWD litter snow-covered roadsides in the Winter.


Michael
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I've tried a couple of the "Winter" performance tires on my e30. Although we
don't usually have excessive winter here in Ohio, I really like the Nokian 4
season tires I'm running now. Great dry hot weather performance type tire,
Excellent wet pavement performance, AND very good on snow and slippery
conditions. Best of all, the are a good deal less expensive than the
Blizzak, Dunlop, and other tires I've tried.

"Michael Low" wrote in message


...


   > > >
   > > > WS-50s are true SNOW TIRES. Dunlop Wintersport M3s are performance
WINTER
   > > > tires.
  > >
  > > WS-50s are Q rated tires that manage to squirm uncomfortably even in
snow
  > > because of their porous and highly flexible tread cap ply and soft
  > > sidewalls. Their road feel convinces *me* that I don't want to exceed
their
  > > maximum speed rating of 99 mph even on dry roads.
  > >
  > > Wintersport M3s are *V rated* tires that feel like actual *tires* when
used
  > > on vehicles where one can tell the difference. My wife even likes them
(a
  > > 16" Minus One fitment) better than the 17" OEM Pirellis on her Jaguar
X-Type
  > > Sport. While I, as a diehard performance freak, will always prefer the
  > > Pirellis, or something like them, I find the M3s a perfectly acceptable
  > > winter solution. When (*IF*) the thing ever crashes or gets stuck
because
  > > it didn't have enough 'tire', I'll be sure to let you know. Until then,
  > > don't try to keep up on Blizzaks ...
 >
 >
 > I hear ya.
 >
 > I feel the same thing about running "real" tires even if they are less
 > suited for deep snow or slush - I was too cheap to pony up for Dunlop
 > M2s but did get Goodyear Ultra Grip GW2s (also V-rated) for my 17-inch
 > Style 5s. They're not bad for grip and they never squirm. Yes, I
 > (had to) exceed 100 mph on them a few times.
 >
 > I think Dunlop M3s are the best of the performance Winter tires.
 >
 >
 > Michael
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