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Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke

 
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ghinzani




Joined: Nov 17, 2004
Posts: 3



(Msg. 16) Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 6:11 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]

hi

If you send me an email I will fwd you his email address

regards

steve
ghinzani DeleteThis @o2.co.uk

ps can you add me to the newsletter also please? Thanks

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user711

External


Since: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 5



(Msg. 17) Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:23 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi gang.
Re power outputs of the TS3 motor. The early TS3s had a bore of 3&1/4" and
4" stroke which gave a cylinder capacity of 199ci / 3261ccs. With a 16:1
compression ratio, this gave 105bhp @ 2400rpm (quoted from the Commer
Maintenance Handbook for MkIII 5/7 ton trucks, Rootes Pub no 531)
Power output was uprated through 117bhp and later motors had an enlarged
bore of 3.375" with the same stroke which gave a capacity of 215ci or
3520cc. Eventual developments of this engine put out 135bhp, although it
is generally felt that this had 'stretched' the motor a little too far to
maintain its reliability.
Mark Erskine has quoted me that "as at 2001 (or 02??) no other truck in
the world had come close to regularly pulling the tonnes of freight per cc
of engine size or had returned as favourable fuel economy per tonnes of
freight carried as the Rootes TS3 powered Commers".....  It was apparently
published in a British Institute of Registered Motor Engineers publication
in 2001 or 02. I am currently writing to a contact in England to see if he
can confirm this. Certainly, the stories of loads carried in NZ and OZ are
legendary, with TS3 powered Commers regularly carrying 3 or 4 times their
designated loading.
Re the TS4 - I am unsure of capacity - will ask Mark but a simple bit of
maths suggest they were around 4.6 litres. They produced 200hp (in 1966!)
and were intended to cover 200 000 miles before rebuilding.
I quote the following from Mark Erskine - "The first 2 prototype TS4s
covered 20000 hrs each without failure! All the 14 prototype TS4s were
test bed run initially. Six stayed in test bed work and eight were put in
trucks for road evaluation, prior to going into production.The engines
that were put in trucks ran up to 1.2 million miles between the 8 of them,
trouble free, before being pulled out and scrapped on instructions from
Chrysler to protect Chrysler’s joint venture in England with Cummins."
4 of the 14 prototypes survived, 3 are in UK museums - one is in the
Leyland Collection, and Mark's was found in a barn in Ireland - he was
actually hunting down one of the rare turbocharged TS3. It is TS4 number
065 which is the 5th or 6th one built and was TIllings Stevens 'spare
engine' so had minimal use. Mark has recently had the injector pump
serviced and he is determined to put the motor into a truck, probably a
Maxiload Commer. (Many people think the Maxiload is the last higher
capacity / horsepower Commer but it is a totally different truck to other
VC Commers having a heavier chassis, front axle, wider track / front
guards, etc)
Also interesting is that Mark has just discovered his TS4 was developed as
a multi-fuel motor. Commer developed multi-fuel versions of the TS3 in a
4x4 VC Commer for military use, designed to be run on what ever was handy
- diesel, petrol, avgas, melted butter, magarine even whisky! (I'm not
joking!) Unfortunately, they lost out on the military contract to Bedford.
I bet a Bedford wouldn't run on all these fuels!
Hope this helps
Cheers
Redbeard


 

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user711

External


Since: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 5



(Msg. 18) Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:40 am
Post subject: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Ken, tried twice to contact you. Email keeps bouncing. Can you email me at
howard.pettigrew_at_xtra.co.nz? with the -at- changed to the usual.
redbeard
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user711

External


Since: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 5



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 6:36 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In reply to the questions about the TS4, here is the lastest info Mark has
just sent me to be published in my newsletter. If you wish to see photos
of the TS4 on the trolley mentioned in the article, please get in touch
via email. Hope you enjoy this. What is interesting is to find sats on
today's diesels of similar capacity. The TS4 is still right up there
beating most of the them hands down. What a shame it never went into
production. Where would we be now - 6cyl / 8 cyl versions?


Prototype Rootes TS4 (Stage I design)
Engine number TS OE 65 (spare engine)
Model Number 4D-287
Number of cylinders 4
Displacement 287 cu in
Performance 200 hp @ 2,600 rpm
Torque 465 ft lb.'s @ 1,800 rpm
Manufacturer Tillings Stevens Ltd, Maidstone, Kent, UK.
Year of manufacture 1966
Total TS4 prototypes built 14

Introduction:
written by Mr Donald Kitchen (last surviving member of the TS3/4 design
team)

The build of the Rootes TS4 prototypes and subsequent development was
undertaken by Rootes Group Diesel Engineering Division (part of Central
Design, Coventry) which was located with the Rootes Group Manufacturing
Plant, Tillings Stevens at Maidstone Kent.

The Rootes TS4 prototypes have the same bore and stroke as the Rootes
3DB-215 model TS3 (with an additional cylinder added) and use the same
liners, pistons, conrods and rockers as the TS3.

It was however in the program to introduce improved material in production
engines for the liners and fire rings and nitriding of crankshaft journals
and rocker pins to extend the working life of the engine to a projected
250,000 miles .

Although the TS3 and TS4 are of the same basic design, the TS4 included
many improvements - the most significant being the introduction of twin
through bolts at either end of the rocker shafts (replacing studs that
were used in the TS3). This modification ensured the crankcase was always
uniformly in compression.

The improvements also included the installation of a Holset harmonic
damper to the front of the TS4 crankshaft (internally), which permitted
maximum revs to increase to 2,600rpm.

The scavenge blower, water and oil pumps and oil filter were also upgraded
to cover the increased capacity....

The History of TS OE 65 (Two-Stroke, Oil Engine, #65) now owned by
Mark Erskinse Otahuhu, Auckland, New Zealand


TS OE 65 was made at Tillings Stevens, Maidstone in 1966 and is one of 4
surviving prototype Rootes TS4, opposed piston, 2-stroke, scavenge blown,
twin rocker beam, direct injection, water cooled diesel engines in the
world today.

It is the only Rootes TS4 prototype in the world in private ownership,
with the other three prototypes being in the care of significant British
Museums.

The Diesel Engineering Division designated OE 65 as a "spare engine",
which meant it received only initial test bed running-in during the entire
prototype program that saw the five other test bed engines set a target of
20,000 hrs running apiece and the eight Experimental Road Test Vehicles
set a target of 300,000 miles apiece to complete.

The Rootes TS4 prototypes represent the pinnacle of achievement in
high-speed diesel engine design from the mid to late 1960's and even
today, 200 hp and 465 ft lb.'s of torque from a 287 cubic inch diesel
engine together with exceptional reliability, fuel efficiency and
longevity is a remarkable achievement.

Had the TS4 made it to production, they were intended to replace the
legendary Rootes TS3 opposed piston diesel engine in Commer trucks from
the early 1970's onwards, however Rootes Group's deteriorating financial
position in the 1960's saw American automotive giant, Chrysler taking full
control of the group in 1967, and this take-over brought about the demise
of the Rootes TS4 project.

In addition to the Rootes take-over, Chrysler had also invested millions
of pounds in a UK joint venture with Cummins to produce new diesel engines
(the disastrous Cummins VALE V6 and VCool and had lucrative supplier
agreements in place with Perkins for the supply of their 6.354 inline six
cylinder and new 185 hp 510 cubic inch V8 diesel engines.

When Chrysler's Management became aware of the prototype Rootes TS4's
extraordinary:

Horsepower
Torque
Power to weight ratio
Reliability
Fuel efficiency
Low manufacturing cost

….they realised there was nothing they (or other engine manufacturers)
could offer that came remotely close to matching the Rootes TS4's
thoroughbred qualities.

Chrysler knew they would not sell Dodge / Commer heavy trucks with their
new Cummins VALE V6 or V8 (or Perkins VCool engines fitted if the TS4 became
a production option, so Chrysler's management of the day decided to
terminate the TS4 project to safeguard their investment with Cummins and
Perkins.

As a result, all Rootes TS4 prototype engines, parts, dies, patterns,
plans, drawings, test records, photo's and fuel injection equipment were
ordered to be scrapped under strict supervision by Chryslers management.

The actions of Chrysler’s management were profoundly unacceptable to
Diesel Engineering Division personnel and key managers thankfully managed
to save four prototype TS4 engines from destruction.

Three engines were eventually gifted to significant UK museums and the
fourth engine (OE 65) was located by Chryslers Engine Development
Department at Coventry.

Because the special pre-production C.A.V rotary/DPA pumps for the TS4
prototypes's had already been scrapped, C.A.V (now Delphi) provided a
pre-production TS4 spec inline F.I pump to Chrysler that was also modified
to Diesel Engineering Division's military specifications as a multi-fuel
pump (enabling the engine to run on diesel, petrol, kerosene / jet fuel).


The inline pump was untidily adapted to the engine by Chrysler and the
engine was run up on an engine dynamometer to insure correct horsepower
and torque outputs were being achieved. To add insult to injury, OE 65 was
then adapted to a generator to provide stand-by power in the Coventry
factory in the event of winter power cuts!

With the generator requirement completed (and with less than 1,000 hours
running completed), Chrysler once again consigned OE 65 to be scrapped.

Remarkably, OE 65 was rescued once again (by a former Diesel Engineering
Division manager) and the engine was coated internally and externally with
a paraffin based wax sealer to prevent corrosion and it went into storage.


It was then acquired by an engine design and development company in 1982
where it sat unused in their warehouse on its mobile engine trolley for
over 20 years.

Even OE 65's engine trolley is significant. It was originally built by
Diesel Engineering Division at Maidstone, to wheel Rootes TS3 prototypes
around their test-bed bay at Maidstone during the 1950's and 1960's.

This particular trolley was lengthened in the middle by Diesel Engineering
Division in the mid 1960's to accommodate the longer TS4 prototypes and is
the only TS3/4 engine trolley known to have survived.

Although OE 65 is in "as-new" condition, it will be stripped to be
extensively cleaned, checked and rebuilt with new oil seals and gaskets
fitted prior to running up on a local engine dynamometer.

Once initial testing is completed, TS OE 65 will be installed into a fully
restored Commer truck to receive regular use as originally intended by
the Management and staff at Diesel Engineering Division. It will also be
presented at truck shows as a working display.


Acknowledgement:

The current owners of TS OE 65 are most grateful for the ongoing and
invaluable assistance provided by former Diesel Engineering Division,
Design Manager, Mr Donald Kitchen.

During the last two years, Mr Kitchen has kindly provided the current New
Zealand owners of TS OE 65 with a wide range of completely unique
technical and historical items and information on the Rootes TS4
prototypes and in particular, information specifically about the history
of TS OE 65 (as described above).
 
Recently, Mr Kitchen also discovered several sets of extraordinarily rare,
genuine, pre-production TS4 gaskets and has gifted them to the engines
owners for use in TS OE 65's imminent refurbishment.

At 80 years old, Mr Kitchen remains very active in his retirement,
enjoying a wide variety of interests and maintains regular contact with a
number of his former colleagues from Diesel Engineering Division.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Brian Orion

External


Since: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 101



(Msg. 20) Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

X-No-archive:yes
WHo asked?
Who cares?

********************
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malcy




Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 21) Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]

My father test drove for Commer and I rode with him in the TS3 truck.
I believe it´s initial concept was to lower the engine and get the noise out of the cab.The Dodge motored trucks were way too noisy and the cab had that huge bulge in the middle.
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jmarkwalker




Joined: Nov 07, 2005
Posts: 1



(Msg. 22) Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Hello folks,

I have just signed up to this forum, and am not familiar with how everything works.

I have signed-up because Yesterday I became the proud owner of a TS3.

I am based in the UK, I have a lot of rebuilding work to do, and I need lots of help.

The information I have read so far in this forum is the most comprehensive I can find on the web (read, 'in the world').

I am desperately looking for a workshop manual for this engine. Can anyone help?

Mark
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Trevor




Joined: Feb 21, 2008
Posts: 1



(Msg. 23) Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:41 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]

I am currently researching the Commer/Rootes TS3/4 range of engines for an article to be published later this year by the Institution of Diesel and Gas Turbine Engineers (www.idgte.org) as part of their heritage series of articles and would like to establish contact with user711 or indeed anyobdy else on this forum who could supply relevant information such as that quoted in the last posting by user711. I would also appreciate any good quality photographs of existing units.

My interest arose in this engine range when employed as a trainee at a diesel factory in the UK where a local delivery service used a Commer truck. One could hear a turbine like noise as their truck passed the offices every day about 2-00pm. This produced the question in the offices as "what the hell is fitted to that truck?"

As direct contact is not possible with archived forum material I am trying this route to see if this option works

user711 wrote:
In reply to the questions about the TS4, here is the lastest info Mark has
just sent me to be published in my newsletter. If you wish to see photos
of the TS4 on the trolley mentioned in the article, please get in touch
via email. Hope you enjoy this. What is interesting is to find sats on
today's diesels of similar capacity. The TS4 is still right up there
beating most of the them hands down. What a shame it never went into
production. Where would we be now - 6cyl / 8 cyl versions?


Prototype Rootes TS4 (Stage I design)
Engine number TS OE 65 (spare engine)
Model Number 4D-287
Number of cylinders 4
Displacement 287 cu in
Performance 200 hp @ 2,600 rpm
Torque 465 ft lb.'s @ 1,800 rpm
Manufacturer Tillings Stevens Ltd, Maidstone, Kent, UK.
Year of manufacture 1966
Total TS4 prototypes built 14

Introduction:
written by Mr Donald Kitchen (last surviving member of the TS3/4 design
team)

The build of the Rootes TS4 prototypes and subsequent development was
undertaken by Rootes Group Diesel Engineering Division (part of Central
Design, Coventry) which was located with the Rootes Group Manufacturing
Plant, Tillings Stevens at Maidstone Kent.

The Rootes TS4 prototypes have the same bore and stroke as the Rootes
3DB-215 model TS3 (with an additional cylinder added) and use the same
liners, pistons, conrods and rockers as the TS3.

It was however in the program to introduce improved material in production
engines for the liners and fire rings and nitriding of crankshaft journals
and rocker pins to extend the working life of the engine to a projected
250,000 miles .

Although the TS3 and TS4 are of the same basic design, the TS4 included
many improvements - the most significant being the introduction of twin
through bolts at either end of the rocker shafts (replacing studs that
were used in the TS3). This modification ensured the crankcase was always
uniformly in compression.

The improvements also included the installation of a Holset harmonic
damper to the front of the TS4 crankshaft (internally), which permitted
maximum revs to increase to 2,600rpm.

The scavenge blower, water and oil pumps and oil filter were also upgraded
to cover the increased capacity....

The History of TS OE 65 (Two-Stroke, Oil Engine, #65) now owned by
Mark Erskinse Otahuhu, Auckland, New Zealand


TS OE 65 was made at Tillings Stevens, Maidstone in 1966 and is one of 4
surviving prototype Rootes TS4, opposed piston, 2-stroke, scavenge blown,
twin rocker beam, direct injection, water cooled diesel engines in the
world today.

It is the only Rootes TS4 prototype in the world in private ownership,
with the other three prototypes being in the care of significant British
Museums.

The Diesel Engineering Division designated OE 65 as a "spare engine",
which meant it received only initial test bed running-in during the entire
prototype program that saw the five other test bed engines set a target of
20,000 hrs running apiece and the eight Experimental Road Test Vehicles
set a target of 300,000 miles apiece to complete.

The Rootes TS4 prototypes represent the pinnacle of achievement in
high-speed diesel engine design from the mid to late 1960's and even
today, 200 hp and 465 ft lb.'s of torque from a 287 cubic inch diesel
engine together with exceptional reliability, fuel efficiency and
longevity is a remarkable achievement.

Had the TS4 made it to production, they were intended to replace the
legendary Rootes TS3 opposed piston diesel engine in Commer trucks from
the early 1970's onwards, however Rootes Group's deteriorating financial
position in the 1960's saw American automotive giant, Chrysler taking full
control of the group in 1967, and this take-over brought about the demise
of the Rootes TS4 project.

In addition to the Rootes take-over, Chrysler had also invested millions
of pounds in a UK joint venture with Cummins to produce new diesel engines
(the disastrous Cummins VALE V6 and VCool and had lucrative supplier
agreements in place with Perkins for the supply of their 6.354 inline six
cylinder and new 185 hp 510 cubic inch V8 diesel engines.

When Chrysler's Management became aware of the prototype Rootes TS4's
extraordinary:

Horsepower
Torque
Power to weight ratio
Reliability
Fuel efficiency
Low manufacturing cost

….they realised there was nothing they (or other engine manufacturers)
could offer that came remotely close to matching the Rootes TS4's
thoroughbred qualities.

Chrysler knew they would not sell Dodge / Commer heavy trucks with their
new Cummins VALE V6 or V8 (or Perkins VCool engines fitted if the TS4 became
a production option, so Chrysler's management of the day decided to
terminate the TS4 project to safeguard their investment with Cummins and
Perkins.

As a result, all Rootes TS4 prototype engines, parts, dies, patterns,
plans, drawings, test records, photo's and fuel injection equipment were
ordered to be scrapped under strict supervision by Chryslers management.

The actions of Chrysler’s management were profoundly unacceptable to
Diesel Engineering Division personnel and key managers thankfully managed
to save four prototype TS4 engines from destruction.

Three engines were eventually gifted to significant UK museums and the
fourth engine (OE 65) was located by Chryslers Engine Development
Department at Coventry.

Because the special pre-production C.A.V rotary/DPA pumps for the TS4
prototypes's had already been scrapped, C.A.V (now Delphi) provided a
pre-production TS4 spec inline F.I pump to Chrysler that was also modified
to Diesel Engineering Division's military specifications as a multi-fuel
pump (enabling the engine to run on diesel, petrol, kerosene / jet fuel).


The inline pump was untidily adapted to the engine by Chrysler and the
engine was run up on an engine dynamometer to insure correct horsepower
and torque outputs were being achieved. To add insult to injury, OE 65 was
then adapted to a generator to provide stand-by power in the Coventry
factory in the event of winter power cuts!

With the generator requirement completed (and with less than 1,000 hours
running completed), Chrysler once again consigned OE 65 to be scrapped.

Remarkably, OE 65 was rescued once again (by a former Diesel Engineering
Division manager) and the engine was coated internally and externally with
a paraffin based wax sealer to prevent corrosion and it went into storage.


It was then acquired by an engine design and development company in 1982
where it sat unused in their warehouse on its mobile engine trolley for
over 20 years.

Even OE 65's engine trolley is significant. It was originally built by
Diesel Engineering Division at Maidstone, to wheel Rootes TS3 prototypes
around their test-bed bay at Maidstone during the 1950's and 1960's.

This particular trolley was lengthened in the middle by Diesel Engineering
Division in the mid 1960's to accommodate the longer TS4 prototypes and is
the only TS3/4 engine trolley known to have survived.

Although OE 65 is in "as-new" condition, it will be stripped to be
extensively cleaned, checked and rebuilt with new oil seals and gaskets
fitted prior to running up on a local engine dynamometer.

Once initial testing is completed, TS OE 65 will be installed into a fully
restored Commer truck to receive regular use as originally intended by
the Management and staff at Diesel Engineering Division. It will also be
presented at truck shows as a working display.


Acknowledgement:

The current owners of TS OE 65 are most grateful for the ongoing and
invaluable assistance provided by former Diesel Engineering Division,
Design Manager, Mr Donald Kitchen.

During the last two years, Mr Kitchen has kindly provided the current New
Zealand owners of TS OE 65 with a wide range of completely unique
technical and historical items and information on the Rootes TS4
prototypes and in particular, information specifically about the history
of TS OE 65 (as described above).

Recently, Mr Kitchen also discovered several sets of extraordinarily rare,
genuine, pre-production TS4 gaskets and has gifted them to the engines
owners for use in TS OE 65's imminent refurbishment.

At 80 years old, Mr Kitchen remains very active in his retirement,
enjoying a wide variety of interests and maintains regular contact with a
number of his former colleagues from Diesel Engineering Division.

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redbeard45




Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 5



(Msg. 24) Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Not sure about the noise out of the cab. Many people who drove TS3 powered Commers complained about being deaf!!!
The QX model cab was designed straight after the war making use of the 4.1 / 4.7 litre motor used in the Humber Super Snipe lying on its side (66 degrees) to ensure the ability to fit three men in the cab - something that was used widely in the advertising. By using the horizontally opposed piston motor, it was possible to fit a diesel motor under the seat. I am not sure whether it was just for this or for the benefits that this motor offered - lower side loadings on the pistons, power to weight ratio by displacement, greater fuel economy. The person that designed this motor and the Hillman 1300 / 1500/ 1600/ 1725cc ohv petrol was a very gifted engineer - one Eric Coy! Just a few thoughts. I have a number of internal reports from inside rootes Diesel Engineering Division that give some interesting insights into their thinking
Cheers
Redbeard
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redbeard45




Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 5



(Msg. 25) Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:39 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Mark, for some reason I never got notified of your posting to this forum. It was a while back you posted your message but if you are still looking for help, I can supply you with manuals and put you in touch with people who have parts. Have a look at my website http://www.commer.org.nz
You will find lots of info there - movies of a cutaway motor, TS3 powered trucks - turn your speakers up, an animation of the motor, and pics and pics and pics of Commers worldwide.
Cheers
Redbeard
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redbeard45




Joined: Sep 18, 2004
Posts: 5



(Msg. 26) Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:45 am
Post subject: Re: Re: Commer TS3 opposed piston 2 stroke [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Trevor, if you go to my website - http://www.commer.org.nz
you will possibly find a lot of helpful info. There is a movie of a cutaway motor in action plus an animation. I can supply pictures of the motor and am happy to help out in any way I can. I can put you in touch with one of the 3 remaining people associated with the development of this remarkable engine - there were only 10 - people who were in the team who developed this engine. If you go to the website, click on the Historial button at the top of the page, and then click on The Commer Men, then the blue words - Don Kitchen - From the Inside - you will be able to read a lot of the development of the motor. Apart from Don, there are some people out here in NZ who could give you a lot of info on the technical aspects and answer a lot of technical questions regarding this motor. Don't be scared to get in touch via the email links on the website. Look forward to hearing from you
Cheers
Redbeard
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