5-20 oil

On 7 Aug 2005 19:19:55 -0700, "treeline12345@yahoo.com"
<treeline12345.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

>nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>
>> Same with the 8R, 18R, 18RC series engines on the early Corona, Celica
>> and Hilux. When I worked for the dealership in the late sixties /
>> early seventies we used the recommended (at that time) 1W30 oil. I
>> replaced several timing chains and tensioners on R and M series
>> engines.
>
>This was a regular, dinosaur oil, this 1W30?

Sorry - finger slipped. 10W30. We used the top line Valvoline as well
as Castrol


>do you think using
>a semi-synthetic or even today's dinosaur with the latest ratings,
>SM?, would give the same dismal results, in your opinion?

Yes - I strongly suspect it would, particularly with the low zinc
formulations.
>That's an awfully wide band to maintain more than 25 years ago,
>if I understood you correctly. I am not surprised that it was
>a disaster. I talked with another shop manager, and he said the
>same thing. Just keep the grades narrow and he even thought
>10W-40 was too wide a separation.

It IS too wide a separation for extended drain intervals - which I
dissagree with on principal with ANY oil. For 5000Km (3000m)
intervals, using a QUALITY oil, the whole long-chain hydrocarbon shear
phenomenon is a red herring. I've never seen it happen.
Oil is more likely, in today's engines, to thicken from heat than to
loose viscosity from shear in that period of useage. Witness the
problems with "coking" on some Chrysler, some Toyota, and several
other brands of engines.
>
>> In Africa, nobody would THINK of using less than a 10W40, or straight
>> 30 weight oil in those engines - and unless you knocked a hole in the
>> oil pan the engines were pretty well bulletproof (not like the 3R/5r
>> Corona engines) That's when I started looking seriously at heavier
>> oils for "normal " use. I had always used the heavier oils in my
>> higher mileage used cars previously (20W50 in the slant six Darts and
>> Valiants, as well as the 850 Mini (which ran straight 50 before
>> rebuilding at about 200,000 miles) In the Mini, the engine oil was
>> also the tranny oil, and the diff oil.
>
>These were Toyota LandCrusiers or what engines?

Nope - not the Cruisrs. The "F" engine in the cruiser is, for all
intents and purposes, a metric version of the Chevy Econoflame six.
Geared cam IIRC.

>Is it still this way?
>It's pretty hot there in places and they go long distances, so
>stop and go is not their concern, I would guess.

The vast majority of miles put on the average private car in Africa is
put on slowly and painfully, mile at a time. The roads, generally, do
not encourage high speed driving - although I've driven on roads where
anything between 30 and 60MPH was virtually impossible. Drive under
thirty on the "roller-coaster" or over 60 on the "pogo-stick" - hit
one bump and miss the next 10 or so. Anything in between was like
riding a jack-hammer.
There are long distances between major centers - but generally the
distances are broken up by many small towns and villages - with the
ever present goats, cattle, guineas,pigs etc - not to mention wildlife
if you are in the south/east.
>
>> Camshaft wear is another place where heavier oils can and do reduce
>> wear.Chevy 307 (in particular, but other SBCs of the same vintage,
>> generally)engines run on 5W30 oil had LOTS of problems with cam lobes
>> going round. Those run on heavier oil tended to last longer before the
>> inevitable happened. Same with the early Pinto/Bobcat/Mustang 2 2200
>> and 2300 engines.
>
>I'm using a 5W30 oil, semi-synthetic, ConocoPhillips/Kendall on an
>engine that has almost 200,000 miles, that is, ~320,000 kilometers.
>Original engine presumably, at least for the last 130,000 miles.

A high quality synthetic or blend does not thin out as much as your
regular "jungle juice" and provides less friction - might work as well
as 10W40
>So far, engine is fine. Hear valve tapping for about 1 minute,
>sometimesl
>on startup and need an oxygen sensor replaced but the timing belt looks
>fine.

And with a BELT, the oil has no bearing on timing component life.

>I preferred a heavier 10W-30 with fewer separations, just what,
>two grades here 10 to 30 or three grades all told. The car has
>generally gotten a 10W-30 oil, 1994 Plymouth 3.0L Mitsubishi Voyager.
>But it's getting older. I was startled to find, unless I am wrong,
>this car's dipstick is notoriously difficult to read, the 5W-30
>is not being consumed as much as the 10W-30. In 2,000 miles, I don't
>think I really even needed to add a quart. With 10W-30, I usually
>added one quart every 1500 miles.

The "jungle juice" tends to boil off faster than synthetic based oils.
Can't compare oil consumption between a synth blend 5W30 and a regular
10W30 and conclude that the car burns less "light" oil than "heavy"

> Oil is changed every 3000 miles.
>
>Do you have any thoughts in this case, on 5W-30 semi-synthetic
>versus dinosaur 10W-30? The dinosaur oil has often the higher grade,
>though, SM, versus, SL for the semi-synthetic oils, when I look at
>some of them in the stores.
>
>I'm thinking about this since I used to consider that
>10W-30 was too light. I did not really like 10W-40 because it
>was four grades combined, but the oils are getting better I'm
>told.

Yes and no. On a high mileage 3.0 Mitsu, with 3000 mile change
intervals, I'd use 10W40, and even 20W50 in the heat we've been
experiencing up here in Ontario this year. Or go with something like
Rotella T 15W40 from Shell.

If you see EXTREME cold in the winter, a synthetic (blend) is possibly
worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

Whoever wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce.TakeThisOut@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>
>>
>> worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>> is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>> engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>
>
> I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were only a
> problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the chemicals that
> cause the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in -- and that this
> problem no longer exists, since the formulations have changed.
>
> > >

I recall reading that full synthetic are more prone to piston scuffing
than a blend.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

Bill Putney wrote:

> Whoever wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce.DeleteThis@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>>> is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>>> engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were only
>> a problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the chemicals that
>> cause the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in -- and that this
>> problem no longer exists, since the formulations have changed.
>>
>> > >
>
>
> I recall reading that full synthetic are more prone to piston scuffing
> than a blend.
>

I recall reading some things about tooth fairies, winged horses with
horns, and Paul Bunyan too.


 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:39:23 -0700, Whoever <nobody.DeleteThis@devnull.none>
wrote:

>
>
>On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce.DeleteThis@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>
>> worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>> is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>> engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>
>I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were only a
>problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the chemicals that cause
>the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in -- and that this problem no
>longer exists, since the formulations have changed.
>
> > >
On a new engine that may be true - but when the rubber is already hard
and it's just varnish and sludge keeping the oil in, it's a totally
different story. Synth will get out where regular oil has stayed for
years.
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

nospam.clare.nce DeleteThis @sny.der.on.ca wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:39:23 -0700, Whoever <nobody DeleteThis @devnull.none>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce DeleteThis @sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>>>is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>>>engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>>
>>I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were only a
>>problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the chemicals that cause
>>the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in -- and that this problem no
>>longer exists, since the formulations have changed.
>>
>> > >
>
> On a new engine that may be true - but when the rubber is already hard
> and it's just varnish and sludge keeping the oil in, it's a totally
> different story. Synth will get out where regular oil has stayed for
> years.

Another urban legend that refuses to die...

Matt
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:50:20 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting.TakeThisOut@epix.net>
wrote:

>nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:39:23 -0700, Whoever <nobody.TakeThisOut@devnull.none>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce.TakeThisOut@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>>worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>>>>is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>>>>engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>>>
>>>I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were only a
>>>problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the chemicals that cause
>>>the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in -- and that this problem no
>>>longer exists, since the formulations have changed.
>>>
>>> > >
>>
>> On a new engine that may be true - but when the rubber is already hard
>> and it's just varnish and sludge keeping the oil in, it's a totally
>> different story. Synth will get out where regular oil has stayed for
>> years.
>
>Another urban legend that refuses to die...
>
>Matt

Not an urban legend. The synthetic oil, over a short period of time,
disolves a lot of what the Dyno oil left behind. If that is all that
held the oil in, it WILL leak. And on a Mitsu 3.0, there are LOTS of
places to leak oil around thevalve gear in particular - but oil pan
gaskets and front seals as well.
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

Steve wrote:

> Bill Putney wrote:
>
>> Whoever wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce.TakeThisOut@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>>>> is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>>>> engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were
>>> only a problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the
>>> chemicals that cause the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in --
>>> and that this problem no longer exists, since the formulations have
>>> changed.
>>>
>>> > >
>>
>>
>>
>> I recall reading that full synthetic are more prone to piston scuffing
>> than a blend.
>>
>
> I recall reading some things about tooth fairies, winged horses with
> horns, and Paul Bunyan too.
>
>

So you're saying that there are no technical reasons to use a blend?
That the only reason is to incrementally cut the cost of the oil and on
the process knowingly dilute some fo the benefits of the synthetic oil?

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

nospam.clare.nce DeleteThis @sny.der.on.ca wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:50:20 GMT, Matt Whiting <whiting DeleteThis @epix.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>nospam.clare.nce@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:39:23 -0700, Whoever <nobody DeleteThis @devnull.none>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce DeleteThis @sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>>>>>is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>>>>>engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>>>>
>>>>I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were only a
>>>>problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the chemicals that cause
>>>>the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in -- and that this problem no
>>>>longer exists, since the formulations have changed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>On a new engine that may be true - but when the rubber is already hard
>>>and it's just varnish and sludge keeping the oil in, it's a totally
>>>different story. Synth will get out where regular oil has stayed for
>>>years.
>>
>>Another urban legend that refuses to die...
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Not an urban legend. The synthetic oil, over a short period of time,
> disolves a lot of what the Dyno oil left behind. If that is all that
> held the oil in, it WILL leak. And on a Mitsu 3.0, there are LOTS of
> places to leak oil around thevalve gear in particular - but oil pan
> gaskets and front seals as well.

I've heard that "dissolves everything" legend as well. I've never seen
any real data to back this up, and I've put synthetic in a couple of
engines with more than 50K on them with no problems. I think both are
urban legends. People make a change and something happens (a leak) and
human nature is to imply cause and effect to what is likely just a
simple correlation.


Matt
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

You are a condescending jackass. Stop being such a jerk to everyone in
this forum and go start your own, of you don't like what's being said
here. OK?




On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 19:59:37 -0400, "Daniel J. Stern"
<dastern.TakeThisOut@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 kmatheson.TakeThisOut@sisna.com wrote:
>
>> Is 5-20w now the recommended oil for the 3.3/3.8? My 1993 3.3 calls for
>> 5-30.
>
>Somethin' in the air today that's causing confusion amongst "past",
>"present" and "future"?
>
>5w20 is being recommended by lots of automakers in their North
>American-market vehicles for fuel economy certification reasons. The same
>engines in the same cars often call for 5w30 in other markets. This does
>not mean older vehicles should be switched to 5w20.
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Bob wrote:

> You are a condescending jackass.

And yet you obviously continue to read my posts. You must like 'em more
than you let on.

> Stop being such a jerk to everyone in this forum and go start your own,

I've been here for well over a decade, and I don't guess I'm going away
anytime soon. You're welcome to cease reading my posts, unless there's
somebody you haven't mentioned who's forcing you to read them.
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

nospam.clare.nce.TakeThisOut@sny.der.on.ca wrote:

>>I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were only a
>>problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the chemicals that cause
>>the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in -- and that this problem no
>>longer exists, since the formulations have changed.
>>
>> > >
>
> On a new engine that may be true - but when the rubber is already hard
> and it's just varnish and sludge keeping the oil in, it's a totally
> different story. Synth will get out where regular oil has stayed for
> years.


Urban legend. "Sludge and varnish" never keep the oil in.
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil 

Bill Putney wrote:

> Steve wrote:
>
>> Bill Putney wrote:
>>
>>> Whoever wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 8 Aug 2005, nospam.clare.nce.DeleteThis@sny.der.on.ca wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> worth while on that engine for better cold flow, but a full synthetic
>>>>> is liable to cause you some un-necessary oil leaks. Those Mitsu
>>>>> engines are hard enough to keep dry on the outside with regular oil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've read that the problems with fully synthetic oil leaking were
>>>> only a problem with early synthetics -- that they lacked the
>>>> chemicals that cause the seals to swell and hence keep the oil in --
>>>> and that this problem no longer exists, since the formulations have
>>>> changed.
>>>>
>>>> > >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I recall reading that full synthetic are more prone to piston
>>> scuffing than a blend.
>>>
>>
>> I recall reading some things about tooth fairies, winged horses with
>> horns, and Paul Bunyan too.
>>
>>
>
>
> So you're saying that there are no technical reasons to use a blend?
> That the only reason is to incrementally cut the cost of the oil and on
> the process knowingly dilute some fo the benefits of the synthetic oil?

I was really saying that the piston scuffing claim is bogus. Blends are
fine, if cost is a driving factor. And to be honest there are blends
(and straight non-synthetics) out there now that turn in oil-analysis
numbers that are very competitive with pure synthetics. But given that I
like to keep cars 10-20 years (or more), I believe that picking a name
synthetic and sticking with it gives better long-term assurance of a
good oil without constantly hanging around the internet to see how
various formulas have changed this week versus last month.
 >> Stay informed about: 5-20 oil