Worth Fixing?

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 04:28:22 GMT, Travis King
wrote:

>clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:17:45 GMT, Travis King
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 80 Knight wrote:
>>>> "Travis King" wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>> 80 Knight wrote:
>>>>>> "Travis King" wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do
>>>>>>> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it
>>>>>>> would cost to fix all of this? (1988 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with 125k miles -
>>>>>>> throttle body injected) The ones below with asterisks (*) are not
>>>>>>> serious.
>>>>>> I would say it is totally up to you. The car seems to have many problems,
>>>>>> but if you like the car enough, and the body is in good shape, then go
>>>>>> ahead and keep it. I have owned cars that cost me more in repairs then
>>>>>> the car did to buy, but I still repaired them, because I was used to them
>>>>>> and liked them.
>>>>> Well, the body's in great shape, but I don't like the car a whole lot, but
>>>>> I am used to it. The seat is starting to tear a little bit on the
>>>>> driver's side - it's old though, so what do you expect? If the engine is
>>>>> going to see some sort of an overhaul, it's all over with as far as I'm
>>>>> concerned. Same for the tranny if it ever goes, and I'm still on the
>>>>> original tranny to my knowledge.
>>>> You are well ahead of where we were when we had our last 6000. The body
>>>> rusted out so bad we had to scrap the car. I always liked the 6000's, but
>>>> when the body get's to the point where it's not going to hold together, its
>>>> time to get rid of it. As for your car, it's totally up to you. One
>>>> advantage you do have (as opposed to buying another used car) is you know
>>>> all the problems with yours. If you buy another used car, you may be getting
>>>> someone else's problems. Still up to you though.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Here are three pictures of it taken a little over a year ago. It hasn't
>>> changed much... I guess one of them was only three months ago. The
>>> spots you see on the trunk in the picture were just where leaves were
>>> and the spots were washed off, so don't panic there. lol
>>> http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/6049/p1160003mediumic0.jpg
>>> http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1188/p1160004mediumoq5.jpg
>>> http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/469/img2189mediumfn1.jpg
>> In that condition I'd at least check out the injectors and ignition
>> wires - enough to cause virtually ALL of the reported problems.
>>
>Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one
>about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it
>has stalled on me just when I simply turned the steering wheel without
>pressing the gas. The last time it did that was over a month ago, and
>the car did not want to start back up after it stalled that time either.
> It also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off
>the brake.

Pull the plugs and do a compression test. All cyls should be very
close. Do the test with the throttle blocked open and theinjectors
disconnected.
If the compression is at all reasonable, you need to check your plugs
and wires. Plugs should have nice square edges onthe center electrode,
and gap should be at spec. Check plug colour and report here.
If plugs look decent, run engine at idle and spray a bit of water on
the plug wires. If it stops, you need new wires (and likely cap too)
As mentioned, check ALL the vacuum lines.
Try disconnecting the EGR vac line as well - to be sure it is not
accidentally being turned on.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

ds549.TakeThisOut@webtv.net wrote:
> i think auto zone , ammco will scan your car for
> free.maybe something you can fix if guided. something you can do
> yourself is check all the vacume lines for cracks. a bad egr valve will
> make a car act like yours. if you dont want to try to fix,i guess your
> better off with a car payment and a different newer car. lucas
>
> http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm
>
I'm not getting any SES warnings by the way.
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

In article ,
Travis King wrote:

> Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one
> about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it
> has stalled on me just when I simply turned the steering wheel without
> pressing the gas. The last time it did that was over a month ago, and
> the car did not want to start back up after it stalled that time either.
> It also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off
> the brake.

I *still* think it's the EGR coming on incorrectly since that's what
caused mine to stall/die.

As for the leaking valve cover gaskets - well, just get used to
replacing them; it's a well-known flaw in that car.

--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

email: aripee at inanna . com
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

In article ,
"Les Benn" wrote:

> I would fix the car. sounds to me like a bad EGR, bad starter, probably
> needs a tune up too.

I've been saying EGR for months now !! Had an '86 6000LE that had the
same stalling/dying problems; took many trips to the shop to get
correctly dx'd but in the end it was the EGR coming on incorrectly.

I now have a '98 Grand Prix 3800GT that (knock wood) is problem-free.

--
"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner."
- Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

email: aripee at inanna . com
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

> Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one
> about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it has
> stalled on me just when I simply turned the steering wheel without
> pressing the gas. The last time it did that was over a month ago, and the
> car did not want to start back up after it stalled that time either. It
> also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off the
> brake.

As a rule the idle should increase when the steering wheel is turned. It
might be worth finding the switch on the rack or pump and testing it, if it
hasn't been done.

Bill
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

Berkshire Bill wrote:
>> Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one
>> about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it has
>> stalled on me just when I simply turned the steering wheel without
>> pressing the gas. The last time it did that was over a month ago, and the
>> car did not want to start back up after it stalled that time either. It
>> also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off the
>> brake.
>
> As a rule the idle should increase when the steering wheel is turned. It
> might be worth finding the switch on the rack or pump and testing it, if it
> hasn't been done.
>
> Bill
>
>
I believe when I turn the steering wheel tight when stopped as sharp as
it will go, the idle goes down, and it really messes with the idle if I
turn the steering wheel at all when the car is in park and running.
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

Travis King wrote:
> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do
> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it
> would cost to fix all of this? (1988 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with 125k miles -
> throttle body injected) The ones below with asterisks (*) are not serious.
>
> 1. Stalls especially when you goose the gas pedal from a stop from time
> to time, especially in reverse and especially when the steering wheel is
> turned sharp. It will do it going straight however. Sometimes turns
> over bad on the restart after it stalls. It didn't actually used to
> have a problem starting back up until the past few months.
> 2. Has issues starting below 0 (F) and the battery appears to be good.
> (Turns over very slow - if the motor does start, it sometimes sputters
> and dies after a second or two on the bitter cold days) Oil used is
> 5W30 and was changed less than two months ago. It also backfires
> sometimes when you're trying to get it to start on those bitter cold
> days like today for example. You could actually see the smoke coming
> off of the engine when it backfires back by the air filter some place.
> 3. Putt-putts like a lawn mower does.
> 4. Misses really bad especially if you begin to drive the vehicle and
> don't let it warm up for at least five minutes on days where the
> temperatures are below 50 (F). It really misses when you come to a stop
> when it's still cold.
> 5. Misses and sometimes dies when you give the car gas when you first
> start it up cold even if you just lightly press the gas pedal.
> 6. From time to time, it turns over poorly if you start it up hot.
> *7. Cruise control does not work.
> 8. Valve cover gasket leaking. (PCV valve possibly causing this as it
> has been addressed several times before)
> 9. Dad says he can hear the engine making a knocking noise.
> 10. Possible engine rocker noise heard on occasion when started cold on
> colder days.
> 11. Timing may be off - not sure.
> 12. On occasion, a "rotten egg" smell is noticed when driving the car.
> Seems to do this more on colder days and seems to be infrequent. It
> only does this once a month at the most and it appears to be random when
> it does this and when it doesn't.
> 13. Tapping noise heard from the engine. (I've noticed it slightly and
> Dad has also noticed it.)
> 14. Sometimes acts like you're not letting the car turn over long
> enough. (This is where I think the timing may be off.)
> *15. The A/C does not work and will cost more than it's worth to fix
> from what we've been told.
> *16. A speaker cuts out at low volumes - when you crank the volume up,
> the speaker kicks back in.
>
> In a previous post done by me earlier today, I discovered the antifreeze
> leak was just caused my a hose that was not tight. I tightened it up.
> We have tightened up that hose before, so for some reason, it keeps
> getting loose and has be tightened from time to time I guess.
>
> I just checked my oil level today and it's fine and the oil's condition
> also looks fine.
Got the spark plugs replaced. The wires do not look that great, so
they'll be getting replaced very soon also. The old spark plugs didn't
look that bad except that they had oil all over them. The wires do
also, and some have corrosion, so they'll be replaced soon. Also going
to get a PCV valve and some gasket silicon for the valve cover again.
(The silicon has held up better than the valve cover gaskets have.)
After that, that's it. If any more expenses are needed, I'm done at
least for now. If the valve cover gasket blows again, I'm done with it.
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

Travis King wrote:
> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do
> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it
> would cost to fix all of this? (1988 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with 125k miles -
> throttle body injected) The ones below with asterisks (*) are not serious.
>
> 1. Stalls especially when you goose the gas pedal from a stop from time
> to time, especially in reverse and especially when the steering wheel is
> turned sharp. It will do it going straight however. Sometimes turns
> over bad on the restart after it stalls. It didn't actually used to
> have a problem starting back up until the past few months.
> 2. Has issues starting below 0 (F) and the battery appears to be good.
> (Turns over very slow - if the motor does start, it sometimes sputters
> and dies after a second or two on the bitter cold days) Oil used is
> 5W30 and was changed less than two months ago. It also backfires
> sometimes when you're trying to get it to start on those bitter cold
> days like today for example. You could actually see the smoke coming
> off of the engine when it backfires back by the air filter some place.
> 3. Putt-putts like a lawn mower does.
> 4. Misses really bad especially if you begin to drive the vehicle and
> don't let it warm up for at least five minutes on days where the
> temperatures are below 50 (F). It really misses when you come to a stop
> when it's still cold.
> 5. Misses and sometimes dies when you give the car gas when you first
> start it up cold even if you just lightly press the gas pedal.
> 6. From time to time, it turns over poorly if you start it up hot.
> *7. Cruise control does not work.
> 8. Valve cover gasket leaking. (PCV valve possibly causing this as it
> has been addressed several times before)
> 9. Dad says he can hear the engine making a knocking noise.
> 10. Possible engine rocker noise heard on occasion when started cold on
> colder days.
> 11. Timing may be off - not sure.
> 12. On occasion, a "rotten egg" smell is noticed when driving the car.
> Seems to do this more on colder days and seems to be infrequent. It
> only does this once a month at the most and it appears to be random when
> it does this and when it doesn't.
> 13. Tapping noise heard from the engine. (I've noticed it slightly and
> Dad has also noticed it.)
> 14. Sometimes acts like you're not letting the car turn over long
> enough. (This is where I think the timing may be off.)
> *15. The A/C does not work and will cost more than it's worth to fix
> from what we've been told.
> *16. A speaker cuts out at low volumes - when you crank the volume up,
> the speaker kicks back in.
>
> In a previous post done by me earlier today, I discovered the antifreeze
> leak was just caused my a hose that was not tight. I tightened it up.
> We have tightened up that hose before, so for some reason, it keeps
> getting loose and has be tightened from time to time I guess.
>
> I just checked my oil level today and it's fine and the oil's condition
> also looks fine.
Bought the silicon, PCV valve, and the new plug wires. We're going to
let the silicon set up for several hours and then we're going to see
what happens... Dad does not like the design of the oil return on the
engine because he said that the oil just sits there at the top and
doesn't go back down like it's supposed to. He also said that the PCV
valve did not look bad, but we replaced it anyway. He also said we need
to run fuel injector cleaner through it.
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

Travis King wrote:
> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do
> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it
> would cost to fix all of this? (1988 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with 125k miles -
> throttle body injected) The ones below with asterisks (*) are not serious.
>
> 1. Stalls especially when you goose the gas pedal from a stop from time
> to time, especially in reverse and especially when the steering wheel is
> turned sharp. It will do it going straight however. Sometimes turns
> over bad on the restart after it stalls. It didn't actually used to
> have a problem starting back up until the past few months.
> 2. Has issues starting below 0 (F) and the battery appears to be good.
> (Turns over very slow - if the motor does start, it sometimes sputters
> and dies after a second or two on the bitter cold days) Oil used is
> 5W30 and was changed less than two months ago. It also backfires
> sometimes when you're trying to get it to start on those bitter cold
> days like today for example. You could actually see the smoke coming
> off of the engine when it backfires back by the air filter some place.
> 3. Putt-putts like a lawn mower does.
> 4. Misses really bad especially if you begin to drive the vehicle and
> don't let it warm up for at least five minutes on days where the
> temperatures are below 50 (F). It really misses when you come to a stop
> when it's still cold.
> 5. Misses and sometimes dies when you give the car gas when you first
> start it up cold even if you just lightly press the gas pedal.
> 6. From time to time, it turns over poorly if you start it up hot.
> *7. Cruise control does not work.
> 8. Valve cover gasket leaking. (PCV valve possibly causing this as it
> has been addressed several times before)
> 9. Dad says he can hear the engine making a knocking noise.
> 10. Possible engine rocker noise heard on occasion when started cold on
> colder days.
> 11. Timing may be off - not sure.
> 12. On occasion, a "rotten egg" smell is noticed when driving the car.
> Seems to do this more on colder days and seems to be infrequent. It
> only does this once a month at the most and it appears to be random when
> it does this and when it doesn't.
> 13. Tapping noise heard from the engine. (I've noticed it slightly and
> Dad has also noticed it.)
> 14. Sometimes acts like you're not letting the car turn over long
> enough. (This is where I think the timing may be off.)
> *15. The A/C does not work and will cost more than it's worth to fix
> from what we've been told.
> *16. A speaker cuts out at low volumes - when you crank the volume up,
> the speaker kicks back in.
>
> In a previous post done by me earlier today, I discovered the antifreeze
> leak was just caused my a hose that was not tight. I tightened it up.
> We have tightened up that hose before, so for some reason, it keeps
> getting loose and has be tightened from time to time I guess.
>
> I just checked my oil level today and it's fine and the oil's condition
> also looks fine.
It fired right up this morning and didn't miss. I also restarted the
motor several times and it turned over fine. It still acted like I
wasn't letting it turn over long enough though when I started it cold.
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

Travis King wrote:>>
>> Well, my SES came back on today, so it's not a fluke. Time to check
>> the codes...
> Well, the codes were 13, 44, and 45. 13 & 44 were from when I replaced
> my O2 sensor the last time and both indicate it's running too low of
> voltage. (We never cleared the codes.) The new code is 45, which is
> the O2 sensor voltage is too high. Specifically, the new code says that
> O2 sensor voltage was above specification. Century and Cutlass Ciera
> was over 0.75 volts for 50 seconds in a closed loop. Lumina was over
> 0.7 volts for 30 seconds and throttle angle was between 3% and 45%. (I
> assume mine fits into the Century & Cutlass Ciera.) This is ridiculous.
> It was only 14 months ago I replaced the O2 sensor and now it needs it
> again? This will be the 4th O2 sensor this car will have had. (Assuming
> it didn't have any done before we took it over nine years ago.) It
> seems a lot of problems on this car that we fix come back within a year
> or two. It's like on its 4th or 5th muffler, and I've had to tighten a
> hose that has leaked antifreeze twice, as well as do the valve cover
> gasket now three times in three years. What's up with this? I got this
> information from here...
> http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/86-87_25R_tbi.shtml
the car's almost 20 years old and that engine is the worst design joke
ever in a Pontiac and you still seemed surprised you have constant
problems. Amazing!

Not to mention failing to clear codes or ever verify anything, just
replacing parts at random based on codes.
GW
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

Geoff Welsh wrote:
> Travis King wrote:>>
>>> Well, my SES came back on today, so it's not a fluke. Time to check
>>> the codes...
>> Well, the codes were 13, 44, and 45. 13 & 44 were from when I
>> replaced my O2 sensor the last time and both indicate it's running too
>> low of voltage. (We never cleared the codes.) The new code is 45,
>> which is the O2 sensor voltage is too high. Specifically, the new
>> code says that O2 sensor voltage was above specification. Century and
>> Cutlass Ciera was over 0.75 volts for 50 seconds in a closed loop.
>> Lumina was over 0.7 volts for 30 seconds and throttle angle was
>> between 3% and 45%. (I assume mine fits into the Century & Cutlass
>> Ciera.) This is ridiculous. It was only 14 months ago I replaced the
>> O2 sensor and now it needs it again? This will be the 4th O2 sensor
>> this car will have had. (Assuming it didn't have any done before we
>> took it over nine years ago.) It seems a lot of problems on this car
>> that we fix come back within a year or two. It's like on its 4th or
>> 5th muffler, and I've had to tighten a hose that has leaked antifreeze
>> twice, as well as do the valve cover gasket now three times in three
>> years. What's up with this? I got this information from here...
>> http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/86-87_25R_tbi.shtml
> the car's almost 20 years old and that engine is the worst design joke
> ever in a Pontiac and you still seemed surprised you have constant
> problems. Amazing!
>
> Not to mention failing to clear codes or ever verify anything, just
> replacing parts at random based on codes.
> GW
FYI - I was not surprised when this car still had problems after doing
our work. In fact, I expected it to not fix anything or at the most,
slightly help it but not fix anything major. I had a feeling it would
likely be a waste of money. It was my dad that seemed certain that
plugs and wires would fix it, and he wasn't going to get off of my case
until I did something about it. I never had much hope knowing this car.
I am also not surprised that I'm having repetitive problems on this
car since that's what it's always done. Also, I did not have the SES
until after we replaced the plugs, wires, PCV valve, and worked on the
valve cover. It's typical of this car since I've had it to have
something else go wrong with it once we fix something else. Dad said he
does not like the design of this engine's oil return system. He
mentioned something about how if he wanted to spend the time, he could
put some kind of groove into it to keep the oil inside. I didn't
understand what he was talking about, but whatever... He said he did
not see any oil sludge and said that he knows it's a design flaw. (I
don't know how he knows if he really does...) I have not told him that
my car is still running bad because if I do, he'll just want me to
senselessly spend more money on getting higher-end spark plug wires,
which I'd bet also won't help. It might be the EGR, it could be
something with the injectors. I don't know, and I don't really want to
play "guess" either to find out. Time to either take it to a shop or
get rid of it. (I'm starting to go towards getting rid of it.) I've
heard that if the timing gears go out in this car, it will cause MAJOR
damage. It's still starting like I'm not letting it turn over long
enough. Perhaps that's a sign of the timing going out? Anyhow, I think
I'm starting to see the light on what decision I should make whether I
should spend the money on it or get something else. My intentions are
to get something else by this summer. (definitely want to wait until at
the earliest April when we shouldn't have much more Winter weather.)
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing? 

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

> Too high voltage means running too lean, IIRC, too low means rich. (or
> other way around, can't remember and don't have book in front of me -
> almost certain too high is lean)
> It does NOT necessarily mean your sensor is bad (and usually does
> not)
>

High is rich. It's intuitive that way, like higher higher fuel trim
numbers.

It's important to be able to monitor the data from the sensor real-time
to watch the switching, and watch the fuel trim (or in the ancient
case, the "Block Learn Multiplier" and "Integrator" values) react.

GW
 >> Stay informed about: Worth Fixing?