Wibble

Catman <catman RemoveThis @rustcuore-sportivo.co.uk> wrote:

> SteveH wrote:
> > Someone pass the Kleenex:
> >
> > http://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/17265/DucatiCorse_01_800-L.jpg
> >
> > http://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/17265/DucatiCorse_02_800-L.jpg
> >
> > <grabs calculator and wonders if his 400 quid a month car allowance will
> > buy one>
> >
> > 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a
> > storming performer, and I desperately want one.
> >
>
> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?

You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL
BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
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SteveH wrote:

>>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a
>>> storming performer, and I desperately want one.
>>>
>> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
>
> You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?

It is all relative though and 170bhp diesels have been powering Leons,
Golfs and Audis for some time and now and aren't the most sporting
versions of those cars.

Punchy yes, storming? no

Cheers
Tony
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Tony R <tony.rickardno.TakeThisOut@spam.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> SteveH wrote:
>
> >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a
> >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one.
> >>>
> >> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
> >
> > You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?
>
> It is all relative though and 170bhp diesels have been powering Leons,
> Golfs and Audis for some time and now and aren't the most sporting
> versions of those cars.
>
> Punchy yes, storming? no

Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just
because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress.

Figures suggest a sub 8 second 0-60 time, which puts it in hot hatch
territory.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL
BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
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SteveH wrote:
> Tony R <tony.rickardno RemoveThis @spam.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> SteveH wrote:
>>
>>>>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a
>>>>> storming performer, and I desperately want one.
>>>>>
>>>> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
>>> You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?
>> It is all relative though and 170bhp diesels have been powering Leons,
>> Golfs and Audis for some time and now and aren't the most sporting
>> versions of those cars.
>>
>> Punchy yes, storming? no
>
> Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just
> because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress.
>
> Figures suggest a sub 8 second 0-60 time, which puts it in hot hatch
> territory.

I guess we are into semantics over what defines "storming" but it is a
second off my 200bhp A3 2.0T which isn't the sporting S3 version.

I have been disappointed that Alfa never developed a true GTI, Cupra, S3
competitor with the 147 to slot between the 2.0TS/1.9JTD and the 3.2 GTA
(which rivals the R32 and A3 3.2 etc.)

My wife's 2.0TS could only ever be described as luke warm, not just in
terms of paper figures but in terms of perception compared with old
boxer engined small alfas, whereas the GTV 2.0TS felt much perkier.

The 150bhp 1.9JTD 147 I drove as a courtesy car had even less sensation
of urgency although the speedo indicated a good rate of progress.

Alfas always used to feel quicker than the paper performance figures but
I believe VAG have trumped them here. The Golf GTI even has an induction
amplifier - an otherwise pointless tube from the manifold to the
passenger compartment to heighten the aural sensation under heavy throttle.

No matter how good the modern diesels are they lack the sensation of a
"hot" variant as riding the flat torque band between 2-4k revs may make
for rapid progress but just in the same effortless way as a large
engined luxury car would, which just doesn't equate to petrol head
satisfaction!

Alfas development of diesels with minimal development of petrols has
further disappointed me. I am being old fashioned I guess but small
petrols was Alfas domain and they are seriously lagging behind. The Q2
is only available with diesel too currently as the petrols take second
stage.

Anyway enough of my ramblings it does look quite nice if not quite hot
enough...

Cheers
Tony
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SteveH wrote:
> Catman <catman.TakeThisOut@rustcuore-sportivo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> SteveH wrote:
>>> Someone pass the Kleenex:
>>>
>>> http://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/17265/DucatiCorse_01_800-L.jpg
>>>
>>> http://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/17265/DucatiCorse_02_800-L.jpg
>>>
>>> <grabs calculator and wonders if his 400 quid a month car allowance will
>>> buy one>
>>>
>>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a
>>> storming performer, and I desperately want one.
>>>
>> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
>
> You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?

Indeed not, but power is power


--
Catman MIB#14 SKoGA#6 TEAR#4 BOTAFOF#38 Apostle#21 COSOC#3
Tyger, Tyger Burning Bright (Remove rust to reply)
116 Giulietta 3.0l Sprint 1.7 156 TS 145 2.0 Cloverleaf 156 V6 2.5 S2
Triumph Sprint ST 1050: It's blue, see.
www.cuore-sportivo.co.uk
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Catman <catman RemoveThis @rustcuore-sportivo.co.uk> wrote:

> >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a
> >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one.
> >>>
> >> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
> >
> > You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?
>
> Indeed not, but power is power

Torque is what you feel when driving, though.

I can appreciate both kinds of engine these days - a couple of years
ago, I'd have not even looked at a diesel - but, for everyday use, I'd
prefer a diesel.
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL
BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
 >> Stay informed about: Wibble 

Tony R wrote:

> Alfas development of diesels with minimal development of petrols has
> further disappointed me. I am being old fashioned I guess but small
> petrols was Alfas domain and they are seriously lagging behind. The Q2
> is only available with diesel too currently as the petrols take second
> stage.

Seems like Alfa are listening to me

http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_149.shtml

Cheers
Tony
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Tony R <tony.rickardno.DeleteThis@spam.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> Tony R wrote:
>
> > Alfas development of diesels with minimal development of petrols has
> > further disappointed me. I am being old fashioned I guess but small
> > petrols was Alfas domain and they are seriously lagging behind. The Q2
> > is only available with diesel too currently as the petrols take second
> > stage.
>
> Seems like Alfa are listening to me
>
> http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_149.shtml

Good to see they've decided to ditch the over weight and under powered
GM based engines and return to the new Fiat lumps - which are rather
impressively specced.

--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL
BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
 >> Stay informed about: Wibble 

SteveH wrote:
> Catman <catman.DeleteThis@rustcuore-sportivo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll
>>>>> be a storming performer, and I desperately want one.
>>>>>
>>>> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
>>>
>>> You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?
>>
>> Indeed not, but power is power
>
> Torque is what you feel when driving, though.
>
> I can appreciate both kinds of engine these days - a couple of years
> ago, I'd have not even looked at a diesel - but, for everyday use, I'd
> prefer a diesel.

The local garage price of 115p/litre kind of puts me off the economy
advantages these days!
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On Sat, 1 Dec 2007 15:37:53 +0000, steve.TakeThisOut@italiancar.co.uk (SteveH)
wrote:

>Catman <catman.TakeThisOut@rustcuore-sportivo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be a
>> >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one.
>> >>>
>> >> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
>> >
>> > You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?
>>
>> Indeed not, but power is power
>
>Torque is what you feel when driving, though.
>
>I can appreciate both kinds of engine these days - a couple of years
>ago, I'd have not even looked at a diesel - but, for everyday use, I'd
>prefer a diesel.

Agreed (since 2001). The torque of a 3l+ petrol with the economy of a
1.4l petrol. It makes for a very useable street fighter! However the
new batch of quite small but high output turbo petrols look
interesting too.

--
Z
Scotland
Alfa Romeo 156 2.4JTD Veloce Leather
'Oil' be seeing you..
(Email without 'Alfa' in subject will be auto-deleted..sorry!)
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"SteveH" <steve.TakeThisOut@italiancar.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1i8g191.12ogm5pv1wdekN%steve@italiancar.co.uk...
> Tony R <tony.rickardno.TakeThisOut@spam.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> SteveH wrote:
>>
>> >>> 170bhp version of the 1.9JTD engine and the fancy Q2 LSD. That'll be
>> >>> a
>> >>> storming performer, and I desperately want one.
>> >>>
>> >> Hmm, 170bhp? Storming?
>> >
>> > You've not drivenn a modern performance diesel, have you?
>>
>> It is all relative though and 170bhp diesels have been powering Leons,
>> Golfs and Audis for some time and now and aren't the most sporting
>> versions of those cars.
>>
>> Punchy yes, storming? no
>
> Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just
> because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress.

Hardly! The extra weight would make it more comparable to a 150bhp petrol. A
200bhp petrol would kick its arse!

Each to his own!!
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GT <ContactGT_remove_.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just
> > because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress.
>
> Hardly! The extra weight would make it more comparable to a 150bhp petrol. A
> 200bhp petrol would kick its arse!
>
> Each to his own!!

There is very little weight penalty in a diesel - remember, Alfa are
using cast iron blocks for their petrols these days, so they're pretty
heavy lumps compared with the old all-alloy twin-cam.

But, don't focus on the figures on paper, where the diesel really works
is that it'll be a lot more forgiving over which gear you're in. My
140bhp diesel can use a single gear and pull from 30mph to nearly 90mph
with ease. Try that in a 2.0T petrol....
--
SteveH 'You're not a real petrolhead unless you've owned an Alfa Romeo'
www.italiancar.co.uk - Honda VFR800 - Hongdou GY200 - Alfa 75 TSpark
Alfa 156 TSpark - B6 Passat 2.0TDI SE - COSOC KOTL
BOTAFOT #87 - BOTAFOF #18 - MRO # - UKRMSBC #7 - Apostle #2 - YTC #
 >> Stay informed about: Wibble 

"SteveH" <steve.TakeThisOut@italiancar.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1i8jqq6.1xgt6py1yeaylqN%steve@italiancar.co.uk...
> GT <ContactGT_remove_.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Day to day, it'll be at least as quick as a 200bhp petrol version, just
>> > because you won't have to rev the guts out of it to make progress.
>>
>> Hardly! The extra weight would make it more comparable to a 150bhp
>> petrol. A
>> 200bhp petrol would kick its arse!
>>
>> Each to his own!!
>
> There is very little weight penalty in a diesel - remember, Alfa are
> using cast iron blocks for their petrols these days, so they're pretty
> heavy lumps compared with the old all-alloy twin-cam.
>
> But, don't focus on the figures on paper, where the diesel really works
> is that it'll be a lot more forgiving over which gear you're in. My
> 140bhp diesel can use a single gear and pull from 30mph to nearly 90mph
> with ease. Try that in a 2.0T petrol....

I find quite the opposite to be true - you have to be in the right gear in a
diesel or you just get nothing but turbo lag and a jumpy/shuddery ride. A
petrol is truely forgiving over which gear you are in with a significantly
larger rev range per gear.

With regard to the pulling from 30 to 90 point: My 165bhp 2.0 JTS petrol,
will pull from 30mph to 95+ in 3rd. From 30mpg to something over 120 in 4th
and from 30mph to around 137mph in 5th. No problem, no shudder, no tractor
noises and no smoke! So pulling from 30 to 90 sounds quite poor!

I find that once you get a diesel to a useable rev range and accelerate for
a few seconds you have run out of revs and have to change gear again - far
from a relaxing effortless drive! On the other hand, with my petrol engine,
above about 25-30mph and you can stick it in top gear and leave it there. It
will happily pull in any gear with revs over about 1200 all the way to
6000+, but diesels I have driven required me to be in the right gear and way
over 1500 revs and they run out of revs around 3000-4000, just as the power
starts to arrive!

Again - I think diesel vs petrol is personal preference, but we are in
danger of descending into 'my car is better than yours' territory!
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