Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes

wtrplnet wrote:
> "mlv" <mike.safetycatchvincent.DeleteThis@jet.uk> wrote in message
> news:efrg2t$bt9$1@north.jnrs.ja.net...
>> I'm in the UK. I recently bought myself a UK spec 2004/54 Jaguar X-Type
> 3.0
>> Sport Premium Estate (5-speed manual) that has done 18,000 miles. I
> remain
>> to be convinced that this was a smart move.
>>
>> I have concerns with the brakes.
>>
>> The brake pedal is soft and spongy and has too much travel.
>>
>> With the car stationary and the engine running - if the brake is firmly
>> applied, the pedal feels soft and has (IMO) excessive movement. If the
> pedal
>> is then quickly pumped, the pedal rises and becomes firm. However, if the
>> pressure on the pedal is maintained, the firmness soon decays (as if fluid
>> was slowly leaking past a seal) and the pedal sinks towards the floor.
>>
>> The brake fluid is at <2% moisture content. There are no apparent brake
>> fluid leaks or loss of fluid from the reservoir.
>>
>> I thought it could be a problem with the brake servo. However, I have
> been
>> told by a Jaguar Main Dealer that this is characteristic of the brakes on
> an
>> X-Type.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience of this?
>>
>> If this modus operandi is in fact correct, then it is a most unusual and
>> disconcerting design feature.
>> --
>> Mike
>> -Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
>> reply-
>>
>>
>
> I've driven many late model Jags and didn't note anything unusual with the
> brakes. I surely would have noticed 'soft pedal' or the pedal sinking
> towards the floor. I'd ask the Jag dealer to demonstrate on an equal car
> that this is characteristic of the model.
>
> What you describe sounds like a leaky master cylinder. Or just possibly
> soft brake lines somewhere along the line. Will the pedal go all the way to
> the floor if you continue pressure on the pedal? If so there is surely a
> problem that needs correcting. As you know hydraulic fluid is not
> 'compressable' and maintaining pressure on the pedal should meet with
> resistance all the time.
>
> I hope the "Main" dealer isn't your only resource for work/advice on the
> car.
>
> Alan
>
>
Ditto
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

wtrplnet wrote:
>
>> I wrote:
>>
>> I'm in the UK. I recently bought myself a UK spec 2004/54
>> Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Sport Premium Estate (5-speed manual)
>> that has done 18,000 miles.
>>
>> I have concerns with the brakes.
>> <snip>
>
> I've driven many late model Jags and didn't note anything unusual
> with the brakes. I surely would have noticed 'soft pedal' or the pedal
> sinking towards the floor. I'd ask the Jag dealer to demonstrate on
> an equal car that this is characteristic of the model.
>
> What you describe sounds like a leaky master cylinder. Or just possibly
> soft brake lines somewhere along the line. Will the pedal go all the way
> to
> the floor if you continue pressure on the pedal? If so there is surely a
> problem that needs correcting. As you know hydraulic fluid is not
> 'compressible and maintaining pressure on the pedal should meet with
> resistance all the time.
>
> I hope the "Main" dealer isn't your only resource for work/advice on the
> car.
>
> Alan

The brake pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor, but it gets much too
close for my liking.

The vehicle is booked into the Jaguar Main Dealer Thursday of this week for
investigation. I will be given a loan vehicle, which I hope will be another
X-Type so that I can make my own comparison.

Either way, I have asked for a report in writing. My vehicle is still under
Jaguar Warranty.

The dealer did say that they had another X-Type in with the same 'sinking
pedal' problem. They said that they replaced the whole master
cylinder/brake servo assembly and it made no difference.
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

"mlv" <mike.safetycatchvincent.TakeThisOut@jet.uk> wrote in message
news:eft3vn$oe6$1@north.jnrs.ja.net...
> wtrplnet wrote:
> >
> >> I wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm in the UK. I recently bought myself a UK spec 2004/54
> >> Jaguar X-Type 3.0 Sport Premium Estate (5-speed manual)
> >> that has done 18,000 miles.
> >>
> >> I have concerns with the brakes.
> >> <snip>
> >
> > I've driven many late model Jags and didn't note anything unusual
> > with the brakes. I surely would have noticed 'soft pedal' or the pedal
> > sinking towards the floor. I'd ask the Jag dealer to demonstrate on
> > an equal car that this is characteristic of the model.
> >
> > What you describe sounds like a leaky master cylinder. Or just possibly
> > soft brake lines somewhere along the line. Will the pedal go all the
way
> > to
> > the floor if you continue pressure on the pedal? If so there is surely
a
> > problem that needs correcting. As you know hydraulic fluid is not
> > 'compressible and maintaining pressure on the pedal should meet with
> > resistance all the time.
> >
> > I hope the "Main" dealer isn't your only resource for work/advice on the
> > car.
> >
> > Alan
>
> The brake pedal doesn't go all the way to the floor, but it gets much too
> close for my liking.
>
> The vehicle is booked into the Jaguar Main Dealer Thursday of this week
for
> investigation. I will be given a loan vehicle, which I hope will be
another
> X-Type so that I can make my own comparison.
>
> Either way, I have asked for a report in writing. My vehicle is still
under
> Jaguar Warranty.
>
> The dealer did say that they had another X-Type in with the same 'sinking
> pedal' problem. They said that they replaced the whole master
> cylinder/brake servo assembly and it made no difference.
> --
> Mike
> -Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
> reply-
>
>

Sounds as if you are in the 'over the barrel' thing with the dealer. You
have a warranty, they say it's normal. Curious that they performed the
repairs on another X-Type if they knew from the start that this was "normal"
for that model of car.

In my experience dealers discourage warranty work even though they will be
reimbursed by the warranty issuer. They often don't get the same rate for
this kind of work they would if they were billing you directly. And
warranty issuers aren't fond of dealers that cave in to customer demands too
easily. It all adds up to them ganging up against you to make this as
difficult for you as possible. Failing satisfaction from the dealer, you
can ask to speak to an area representative from Jag.

I've found enthusiast clubs are some of the best resources for finding out
exactly what's "right" in cases like this. If you have a Jaguar club in
your area I'd sure contact them. Not only will they know what's proper
performance for your car, they will know all the local service resources.

If it were me and after the Thursday appointment I was still unhappy with
the results I would contact an independant garage, one that specializes in
Jaguar. You may have to pay for the inspection, but they can document any
problems they find and you can go back to the dealer armed with this.

I'd guess that in the end if you make a big enough fuss you'll get your way.
Before doing that I'd make sure the dealer isn't right when they say it's
typical for your model car.

Good luck!
Alan
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

David wrote:
>
> I have a standard, no sport package, 2003 U.S. X-Type 2.5. My car was
> not new. It had about 2200 miles on it. I believe it was either a
> leased car or a loaner from the service department when I bought it.

My X-Type is an ex-Jaguar management car.

> It now has around 35,500 miles on it. I would describe the brake
> pedal as soft with quite a bit of travel as well. The pedal stops
> nowhere near the floor. It has always been this way. The dealer tells
> me it is normal as well.

Well, that matches my experience almost exactly. The only difference for me
is that the pedal gets too near the floor for my liking.

> It is quite a bit different than other cars I have had. My previous
> car was a 1994 Volvo 850. Its brake pedal was always very solid with
> not much travel. All of that said my car has always stopped very
> well. I have engaged the anti-lock system several times as well. The
> ABS in the Volvo made a fair amount of noise with minimal pedal
> pulsing. The ABS in the X-Type makes a tremendous amount of noise and
> a great deal of pedal pulsing. I assume the two cars have different
> hardware for the ABS systems since they are ten years apart. I just
> keep the pedal down and it stops nice and straight.

I haven't managed to invoke the ABS yet. All my previous cars have had a
brake pedal that comes up solid. Soft has always indicated a brake system
problem in the past.

> So now I just assume the pedal will travel and stomp it down. Hope
> this helps. I would be curious to hear what your dealer says about it
> on Thursday.

I'll report back.
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

wtrplnet wrote:
>
> Sounds as if you are in the 'over the barrel' thing with the dealer.

I have got Jaguar Customer Service involved and their response has been very
positive so far. The dealer also gives a very good service, so they have
the benefit of the doubt for now.

> You have a warranty, they say it's normal. Curious that they performed
> the repairs on another X-Type if they knew from the start that this was
> "normal" for that model of car.

Maybe they decided it was 'normal' only after they found they couldn't cure
it?

> I've found enthusiast clubs are some of the best resources for finding out
> exactly what's "right" in cases like this. If you have a Jaguar club in
> your area I'd sure contact them. Not only will they know what's proper
> performance for your car, they will know all the local service resources.

Good idea, I'll do that.

> If it were me and after the Thursday appointment I was still unhappy with
> the results I would contact an independent garage, one that specializes in
> Jaguar. You may have to pay for the inspection, but they can document any
> problems they find and you can go back to the dealer armed with this.

An independent inspection would be my next move.

> I'd guess that in the end if you make a big enough fuss you'll get your
> way.
> Before doing that I'd make sure the dealer isn't right when they say it's
> typical for your model car.

Kicking up a fuss is my forte

However, if they convince me that soft is correct (in writing), then I'll
live with it, although I still won't like it.
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

>
> However, if they convince me that soft is correct (in writing), then I'll
> live with it, although I still won't like it.
> --
> Mike

Of course then you can still have the brakes you like, constrained only by
your budget. I'd have to guess, and this is only a guess, that the standard
brakes are up to the job as designed. In other words, purchasing an entire
after-market brake system is probably overkill for normal driving. But you
might be able to tweak the 'feel' of the system without bankrupting
yourself.

The first trick we always used was replacing any rubber hoses with stainless
steel braided units. That's probably the cheapest way to get results you
may actually feel at the pedal. And in all this discussion we haven't
talked about the most obvious thing, probably because you must have looked
into this first. Are you certain the system has been completely purged of
air? When I was racing I always did this task myself. Getting it right is
a very tedious process. It isn't something I'd just take someone's word as
being properly done, though I'd say the dealer would be sure about this
before possibly replacing hardware at warranty.

And what car are you used to before the Jag? Perhaps the brakes are simply
'over-boosted' compared to what you're used to. This seems to me to be
something across-the-brand for certain makes. For example, every Porsche
I've ever driven has had a rock-solid pedal feel. Every BMW I've driven has
had, to me, overly sensitive brakes. Every Cadillac spongy brakes, and so
on. Having said that, I never noticed anything unusual in the many Jags
I've driven.

Guess we'll know more after your visit to the dealer, good luck!
Alan
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

My last one (a 2.0D) did it as well. Very disconcerting, and I got the same
answer from the dealership - I solved it by swapping it for a 2.2D (mistake)
that still does it a bit, but not nearly as much (now at 20k miles).

David


"mlv" <mike.safetycatchvincent.RemoveThis@jet.uk> wrote in message
news:efrg2t$bt9$1@north.jnrs.ja.net...
> I'm in the UK. I recently bought myself a UK spec 2004/54 Jaguar X-Type
3.0
> Sport Premium Estate (5-speed manual) that has done 18,000 miles. I
remain
> to be convinced that this was a smart move.
>
> I have concerns with the brakes.
>
> The brake pedal is soft and spongy and has too much travel.
>
> With the car stationary and the engine running - if the brake is firmly
> applied, the pedal feels soft and has (IMO) excessive movement. If the
pedal
> is then quickly pumped, the pedal rises and becomes firm. However, if the
> pressure on the pedal is maintained, the firmness soon decays (as if fluid
> was slowly leaking past a seal) and the pedal sinks towards the floor.
>
> The brake fluid is at <2% moisture content. There are no apparent brake
> fluid leaks or loss of fluid from the reservoir.
>
> I thought it could be a problem with the brake servo. However, I have
been
> told by a Jaguar Main Dealer that this is characteristic of the brakes on
an
> X-Type.
>
> Does anyone have experience of this?
>
> If this modus operandi is in fact correct, then it is a most unusual and
> disconcerting design feature.
> --
> Mike
> -Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
> reply-
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

> I wrote:
>
>> David wrote:
>>
>> I would be curious to hear what your dealer says
>> about it on Thursday.
>
> I'll report back.

No news on my X-Type yet, but the Jaguar Dealership has lent me a mint
2005/55 S-Type 3.0 Automatic (Diesel). It was delivered to my house, fully
valeted and with a full tank of fuel.

The S-Type is really smooth and a real pleasure to drive. The performance
is excellent and the brakes are superbly efficient, with a nice firm feel.
And it's returning 34.2 mpg without me really trying.

I've told them there's no rush to return my X-type
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

wtrplnet wrote:
>
> Of course then you can still have the brakes you like, constrained only by
> your budget. I'd have to guess, and this is only a guess, that the
> standard
> brakes are up to the job as designed. In other words, purchasing an
> entire
> after-market brake system is probably overkill for normal driving. But
> you
> might be able to tweak the 'feel' of the system without bankrupting
> yourself.
>
> <snip>

Thanks for the useful info.

Yes, the brake system has been purged of air.

The stainless steel braided brake hoses seem a good place to start.
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

"mlv" <mike.safetycatchvincent RemoveThis @jet.uk> wrote in message
news:eg5kqo$98h$1@north.jnrs.ja.net...
> wtrplnet wrote:
>>
>> Of course then you can still have the brakes you like, constrained
>> only by
>> your budget. I'd have to guess, and this is only a guess, that the
>> standard
>> brakes are up to the job as designed. In other words, purchasing
>> an entire
>> after-market brake system is probably overkill for normal driving.
>> But you
>> might be able to tweak the 'feel' of the system without bankrupting
>> yourself.
>>
>> <snip>
>
> Thanks for the useful info.
>
> Yes, the brake system has been purged of air.
>
> The stainless steel braided brake hoses seem a good place to start.
> --
> Mike
> -Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off
> your reply-

I always said that before we invaded Iraq, we should have invaded the
UK and arrested Tony Blair for letting everyone over there drive on
the wrong side of the highway. Think of the lives that could be saved
and the benefit of freeing the population from this ruthless dictator.

 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

>> David wrote:
> I wrote:
>>
>> I would be curious to hear what your dealer says
>> about it on Thursday.
>
> I'll report back.

I collected my X-Type Saturday morning.

Rather predictably the brakes are "normal" for this vehicle.

The soft, 'spongy' feel seems to be a consequence of the poor conversion
from the 'favoured' LHD design, to RHD. The servo and brake master cylinder
remain on the left-hand side, whilst the brake pedal moves to the right-hand
side. Presumably whatever mechanism transfers the pedal movement across the
bulkhead has too much torsional movement, hence the unpleasant 'spongy'
feel.

But it gets worse, much worse. One of my other major gripes is the rough,
'agricultural' gear change. It transpires that the 3.0 X-Type has a CABLE
gear change. The Austin Maxi lives! Cables - no wonder the gear change is
so poor.

If I had known it had a cable gear change, I would never have purchased it.

Maybe Jaguar like cables. Maybe the connection between the brake pedal and
brake master cylinder is another cable. That would explain a lot...
--
Mike
-Please remove 'safetycatch' from e-mail address before firing off your
reply-
 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes 

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 >> Stay informed about: Jaguar X-Type Spongy Brakes