Tragic Fatallity

In article <kY2dnZaSTYbrIrDeRVnyvQ DeleteThis @pipex.net>, Tom says...
> I guess most of you know about the tragic fatal accident in the WRC, GB.
>
> I think that I am maybe a bit premature asking this question, and I hope it
> doesn't cause any offence to anyone. However, I do not understand how this
> tragedy could have happened.
>
Quite easy - side impact at high speed. A car sliding sideways into a
tree at anything above low speed will, without fail, end up shaped like
a banana. THis is what happened.

> There have been some very terrible accidents in the past, but the people
> inside the car are un-injured. Therefore, the only conclusion I can come to
> is that a tree branch, or something else came into the car through one of
> the windows.
>
Nope.

> The reason I am curious is that I am interested in how to prevent a tragedy
> like this in the future. A rally car is very strong, but the weak spot is
> the windows.
>
Actually, the weak spot regarding crashes is an impact in the A to C
post area at the side. The front and rear of a car have at least a few
feet of crumplezone - you don't have that at the side.


--
Conor

Michael Park 1966-2005. World Rallying will miss you. God bless.
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

"Tom" <nospam.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kY2dnZaSTYbrIrDeRVnyvQ@pipex.net...

> The reason I am curious is that I am interested in how to prevent a
tragedy
> like this in the future. A rally car is very strong, but the weak spot is
> the windows.

It's too early to be investigating this incident at this sort of level. When
more information about how this tragedy took place is available, then we can
start to offer opinions.

In the meantime, lets offer our condolences to all who are affected directly
by this, his family of course, but also his driver. How must Markko feel to
walk away from something that killed his passenger?
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

> It's too early to be investigating this incident at this sort of level.
> When
> more information about how this tragedy took place is available, then we
> can
> start to offer opinions.
>

I agree. I hear that the investigators are going to do a full accident
investigation. In the meanwhile, I think the top average speed of 130kph is
too much. I would hope that it would be lowered to 120kph for next year. The
cars will also be a bit slower next year due to the banning of active
differentials and anti roll bars, but that may prove to be marginal as in
the same time Ford and Subaru are rolling their new versions of the cars on
the line.

Rally cars are generally not tested at all for front and side impacts. Only
the rollcage structure will be tested and the results sent to FIA for
approval. I truly hope that the investigators find out if there is anything
the car makers can do to increase survivability in extreme
one-point-off-impact crashes. It is possible that Park died from the instant
sideways deceleration, but it is also possible that he got hit, wounded or
mortally compressed because of the car structure deforming. There is
something to be looked at in how the structure of a racing car deforms; as
they are not tested.

The above poins are just my opinions, but I'm wondering if anyone of the
readers have similar thoughts.

--
Mika Takala
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

Banning anti-roll bars seems a strange move.

I agree with your possible reasons for this fatality. I only had a very
brief glimpse of the car, however this was after the rescue team had cut the
roof off, etc.

Who is main body investigating this case? Is it the Police accident
investigation branch, or an independent investigation?



"Mika Takala" <mika.takala DeleteThis @REM0VEsaunalahti.fi__.INVALID> wrote in message
news:HJDXe.26155$Vi7.16826@reader1.news.jippii.net...
> > It's too early to be investigating this incident at this sort of level.
> > When
> > more information about how this tragedy took place is available, then we
> > can
> > start to offer opinions.
> >
>
> I agree. I hear that the investigators are going to do a full accident
> investigation. In the meanwhile, I think the top average speed of 130kph
is
> too much. I would hope that it would be lowered to 120kph for next year.
The
> cars will also be a bit slower next year due to the banning of active
> differentials and anti roll bars, but that may prove to be marginal as in
> the same time Ford and Subaru are rolling their new versions of the cars
on
> the line.
>
> Rally cars are generally not tested at all for front and side impacts.
Only
> the rollcage structure will be tested and the results sent to FIA for
> approval. I truly hope that the investigators find out if there is
anything
> the car makers can do to increase survivability in extreme
> one-point-off-impact crashes. It is possible that Park died from the
instant
> sideways deceleration, but it is also possible that he got hit, wounded or
> mortally compressed because of the car structure deforming. There is
> something to be looked at in how the structure of a racing car deforms; as
> they are not tested.
>
> The above poins are just my opinions, but I'm wondering if anyone of the
> readers have similar thoughts.
>
> --
> Mika Takala
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

"Tom" <nospam.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:q_edncbBzonayq3eRVnysg@pipex.net...
> Banning anti-roll bars seems a strange move.

The keyword was "active". Currently teams have active anti-roll bars; I
think they are active in a way that they are electronically or hydraulically
controlled but don't count as active suspensions as they don't have direct
influence into car suspension activities. The active parts will be banned
starting from next year, a passive anti-roll bar will be allowed.

> I agree with your possible reasons for this fatality. I only had a very
> brief glimpse of the car, however this was after the rescue team had cut
> the
> roof off, etc.

After seeing some high resolution video footage from Rovanperä's car, I
think the codriver side of the 307 was just too severely deformed for any
survival space for the codriver.

> Who is main body investigating this case? Is it the Police accident
> investigation branch, or an independent investigation?

I don't know. I suspect that FIA is going to do its own investigation,
though.


--
Mika Takala
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

"Mika Takala" <mika.takala.RemoveThis@REM0VEsaunalahti.fi__.INVALID> wrote in message
news:jP_Xe.26775$EW6.9935@reader1.news.jippii.net...
>
> "Tom" <nospam.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:q_edncbBzonayq3eRVnysg@pipex.net...
>> Banning anti-roll bars seems a strange move.
>
> The keyword was "active". Currently teams have active anti-roll bars; I
> think they are active in a way that they are electronically or
> hydraulically controlled but don't count as active suspensions as they
> don't have direct influence into car suspension activities. The active
> parts will be banned starting from next year, a passive anti-roll bar will
> be allowed.
>
>> I agree with your possible reasons for this fatality. I only had a very
>> brief glimpse of the car, however this was after the rescue team had cut
>> the
>> roof off, etc.
>
> After seeing some high resolution video footage from Rovanperä's car, I
> think the codriver side of the 307 was just too severely deformed for any
> survival space for the codriver.
>
>> Who is main body investigating this case? Is it the Police accident
>> investigation branch, or an independent investigation?
>
> I don't know. I suspect that FIA is going to do its own investigation,
> though.
>

Would have suspected it would be a normal Police Investigation (As with any
fatal accident) + what ever is anyone else wants to do
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:46:37 +0300, "Mika Takala"
<mika.takala.TakeThisOut@REM0VEsaunalahti.fi__.INVALID> wrote:

>I agree. I hear that the investigators are going to do a full accident
>investigation. In the meanwhile, I think the top average speed of 130kph is
>too much. I would hope that it would be lowered to 120kph for next year. The
>cars will also be a bit slower next year due to the banning of active
>differentials and anti roll bars, but that may prove to be marginal as in
>the same time Ford and Subaru are rolling their new versions of the cars on
>the line.

I don't think the average speed is the problem; in some places the top
speed needs to go down maybe. I think many of the accidents in the
past, and in the future, will have nothing to do with the average
speed, neither the top speed.

On some stages the top speed might need to be reduces. There are
stages with speed way above 200 kmh -- and we can see national races
around in different countries where somewhat closer to amatures goes
way above 200 in the woods or gravel roads besides a plunge.

But a question now is if the cars have too much power. I don't think
setting some more limitations with reducing the power will make it
less interesting -- it can also be good for the costs and the
competition. The specs says 300 bhp, but I guess most are over 350 now
and down to the weight-limit.

How can the cars be made safer from side-impacts? I guess one option
is to remove the doors and make the drivers climb in the window and
build a stronger structure on the side. Still, there is the
possibility also for something going through the window. Some
aspalt-racers have the "though the window"-solutions, but they don't
have trees by the track. If a injury happens, it can be harder to get
people out of the cars, especialy since there ain't people all along
the stages.

I really don't know -- I'm not sure there is too much that can be done
really -- maybe it just have to be a part of it all, as with most
motorspors, there is the risk. If everything is done to make it safe,
some of the thrill in the sport goes away.

>
>Rally cars are generally not tested at all for front and side impacts. Only
>the rollcage structure will be tested and the results sent to FIA for
>approval. I truly hope that the investigators find out if there is anything
>the car makers can do to increase survivability in extreme
>one-point-off-impact crashes. It is possible that Park died from the instant
>sideways deceleration, but it is also possible that he got hit, wounded or
>mortally compressed because of the car structure deforming. There is
>something to be looked at in how the structure of a racing car deforms; as
>they are not tested.

I'm not sure what happen, but when looking at the car, the force of it
all might be the reason -- and not the deformation of the car.



--
Clas Mehus
- "Den som har flest prylar när han dör vinner..."
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

Clas Mehus wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:46:37 +0300, "Mika Takala"
> <mika.takala.DeleteThis@REM0VEsaunalahti.fi__.INVALID> wrote:
>
>
>>I agree. I hear that the investigators are going to do a full accident
>>investigation. In the meanwhile, I think the top average speed of 130kph is
>>too much. I would hope that it would be lowered to 120kph for next year. The
>>cars will also be a bit slower next year due to the banning of active
>>differentials and anti roll bars, but that may prove to be marginal as in
>>the same time Ford and Subaru are rolling their new versions of the cars on
>>the line.

no its 132 kmh and in most of the rally they go that fast only at
Neste Rally Finland they get that fast


>
> I don't think the average speed is the problem; in some places the top
> speed needs to go down maybe. I think many of the accidents in the
> past, and in the future, will have nothing to do with the average
> speed, neither the top speed.
>
> On some stages the top speed might need to be reduces. There are
> stages with speed way above 200 kmh -- and we can see national races
> around in different countries where somewhat closer to amatures goes
> way above 200 in the woods or gravel roads besides a plunge.
>




> But a question now is if the cars have too much power. I don't think
> setting some more limitations with reducing the power will make it
> less interesting -- it can also be good for the costs and the
> competition. The specs says 300 bhp, but I guess most are over 350 now
> and down to the weight-limit.

thats not true 300bhp is the max that is alowed




> How can the cars be made safer from side-impacts? I guess one option
> is to remove the doors and make the drivers climb in the window and
> build a stronger structure on the side. Still, there is the
> possibility also for something going through the window. Some
> aspalt-racers have the "though the window"-solutions, but they don't
> have trees by the track. If a injury happens, it can be harder to get
> people out of the cars, especialy since there ain't people all along
> the stages.
>
> I really don't know -- I'm not sure there is too much that can be done
> really -- maybe it just have to be a part of it all, as with most
> motorspors, there is the risk. If everything is done to make it safe,
> some of the thrill in the sport goes away.
>
>
>>Rally cars are generally not tested at all for front and side impacts. Only
>>the rollcage structure will be tested and the results sent to FIA for
>>approval. I truly hope that the investigators find out if there is anything
>>the car makers can do to increase survivability in extreme
>>one-point-off-impact crashes. It is possible that Park died from the instant
>>sideways deceleration, but it is also possible that he got hit, wounded or
>>mortally compressed because of the car structure deforming. There is
>>something to be looked at in how the structure of a racing car deforms; as
>>they are not tested.
>
>
> I'm not sure what happen, but when looking at the car, the force of it
> all might be the reason -- and not the deformation of the car.
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:40:05 +0800, philrobbo <philrobbo RemoveThis @ami.com.au>
wrote:

>>>I agree. I hear that the investigators are going to do a full accident
>>>investigation. In the meanwhile, I think the top average speed of 130kph is
>>>too much. I would hope that it would be lowered to 120kph for next year. The
>>>cars will also be a bit slower next year due to the banning of active
>>>differentials and anti roll bars, but that may prove to be marginal as in
>>>the same time Ford and Subaru are rolling their new versions of the cars on
>>>the line.
>
>no its 132 kmh and in most of the rally they go that fast only at
> Neste Rally Finland they get that fast

If replying to this, reply to the one that wrote it, not quote the
quote of a another, so that it seems like he wrote it.

>> But a question now is if the cars have too much power. I don't think
>> setting some more limitations with reducing the power will make it
>> less interesting -- it can also be good for the costs and the
>> competition. The specs says 300 bhp, but I guess most are over 350 now
>> and down to the weight-limit.
>
>thats not true 300bhp is the max that is alowed

No, it's not. 300 is stated as the official, but the cars now have
over 350. There are now testing done on the pwer -- just that the
engine on other areas are within the physical regulations. The main
restriction on these engines are the air intake (these engines get
5-600bhp with just a little work done, e.g. in use for rallycross).

With a real 300bhp-regulation on the 2L engine, the
performance-difference between the cars would have been smaller. E.g.
looking back to WRC in Germany, Solberg stated that Loeb had quite
more horsepower in the Xsara than the Impreza -- and when he got the
new car earlier this summer, Solberg was disepointed that they hadn't
been able to increase the horsepower and torque. How much power these
cars really have can only be stated through what some of the drivers
had said, and it seems like all WRC-cars now have over 350bhp -- in
some years, I guess they find a way to get 400 even with the little
intake/"small" turbo's.




--
Clas Mehus
- "Den som har flest prylar när han dör vinner..."
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

speed and car safety are all well and good , but at the end of the day its
up to the driver and co-driver to decide how fast and how they want to take
the corner , it could have just been a case of marko and 'beef' thinking
thay could take the corner a couple of km faster than everyone else.

Clas Mehus <clas.mehus.TakeThisOut@idg.no> wrote in message
news:il62j1pmbc7pahj1kgfs4pk0hastqc3b11@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:40:05 +0800, philrobbo <philrobbo.TakeThisOut@ami.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >>>I agree. I hear that the investigators are going to do a full accident
> >>>investigation. In the meanwhile, I think the top average speed of
130kph is
> >>>too much. I would hope that it would be lowered to 120kph for next
year. The
> >>>cars will also be a bit slower next year due to the banning of active
> >>>differentials and anti roll bars, but that may prove to be marginal as
in
> >>>the same time Ford and Subaru are rolling their new versions of the
cars on
> >>>the line.
> >
> >no its 132 kmh and in most of the rally they go that fast only at
> > Neste Rally Finland they get that fast
>
> If replying to this, reply to the one that wrote it, not quote the
> quote of a another, so that it seems like he wrote it.
>
> >> But a question now is if the cars have too much power. I don't think
> >> setting some more limitations with reducing the power will make it
> >> less interesting -- it can also be good for the costs and the
> >> competition. The specs says 300 bhp, but I guess most are over 350 now
> >> and down to the weight-limit.
> >
> >thats not true 300bhp is the max that is alowed
>
> No, it's not. 300 is stated as the official, but the cars now have
> over 350. There are now testing done on the pwer -- just that the
> engine on other areas are within the physical regulations. The main
> restriction on these engines are the air intake (these engines get
> 5-600bhp with just a little work done, e.g. in use for rallycross).
>
> With a real 300bhp-regulation on the 2L engine, the
> performance-difference between the cars would have been smaller. E.g.
> looking back to WRC in Germany, Solberg stated that Loeb had quite
> more horsepower in the Xsara than the Impreza -- and when he got the
> new car earlier this summer, Solberg was disepointed that they hadn't
> been able to increase the horsepower and torque. How much power these
> cars really have can only be stated through what some of the drivers
> had said, and it seems like all WRC-cars now have over 350bhp -- in
> some years, I guess they find a way to get 400 even with the little
> intake/"small" turbo's.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Clas Mehus
> - "Den som har flest prylar när han dör vinner..."
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

Yup. I find it astonishing that there has only been one 'in-car' fatality
in WRC in the last 12 years, considering the speed and terrain they drive
through.

It is also 20 years since the a driver was killed in WRC.



"wayne goldring" <wayne.goldring.TakeThisOut@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:71iZe.2641$NO2.2525@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
> speed and car safety are all well and good , but at the end of the day its
> up to the driver and co-driver to decide how fast and how they want to
take
> the corner , it could have just been a case of marko and 'beef' thinking
> thay could take the corner a couple of km faster than everyone else.
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity 

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:19:45 +0100, "Tom" <nospam.TakeThisOut@nospam.com> wrote:

>Yup. I find it astonishing that there has only been one 'in-car' fatality
>in WRC in the last 12 years, considering the speed and terrain they drive
>through.
>
>It is also 20 years since the a driver was killed in WRC.
>
>
>
>"wayne goldring" <wayne.goldring.TakeThisOut@virgin.net> wrote in message
>news:71iZe.2641$NO2.2525@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
>> speed and car safety are all well and good , but at the end of the day its
>> up to the driver and co-driver to decide how fast and how they want to
>take
>> the corner , it could have just been a case of marko and 'beef' thinking
>> thay could take the corner a couple of km faster than everyone else.

I recall Carlos Sainz' co-driver was badly injured a few years ago. I
assume he did not die, but how is he today?
 >> Stay informed about: Tragic Fatallity