T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat..

"Comboverfish" wrote
> Elle wrote:
>> Which way is the 1st/2nd Gear Synchronizing Hub (the part
>> with the inserts, a.k.a. "keys" or "struts") supposed to
>> be
>> oriented? That is, which side faces the front?
>>
>> This hub is a sub-part of part #80 at
>> www.drivetrain.com/transillgm_t10.html . It (or a
>> similarly
>> shaped one) is shown in the photo (beneath the words "...
>> and also thicker and wider gapped teeth very noticeable
>> in
>> the picture") at
>> http://www.tbtrans.com/muncie_4_speed.htm#diagram . One
>> can
>> see the lip on one side of the hub. That's what we're
>> unsure
>> about: Is the lip side of the hub closer to the aft end
>> or
>> forward end of the mainshaft?
>>
>> This is for a circa 1965, 289 in^3, V8 Mustang.
>>
>> I am taking a manual transmissions automotive course.
>> This
>> is the first time the instructor has overseen student
>> breakdown and re-assembly of this particular
>> transmission.
>> He has already sent us down a few wrong paths.
>> Unfortunately
>> my team and I did not make decent drawings prior to
>> disassembly (dummies all). Nor do we have a factory
>> service
>> manual. I finally located some drawings on the net
>> and an old Chilton's manual description of this
>> transmission's assembly. We're losing time and need to
>> move
>> onto other aspects of the drivetrain. (Though I can see
>> us
>> easily spending the rest of the course getting this
>> tranny
>> back together. We're also supposed to fix the tranny,
>> since
>> it won't go into reverse.) Help would sure be
>> appreciated. I
>> just want to learn as much as possible, but this is now
>> becoming inefficient.
>
> I don't know from personal experience on this trans, and
> the assembly
> pic is not detailed enough to tell. From the closeup pic
> of the hub in
> your second link the offset is very noticable. All I
> could suggest if
> you don't get a better answer is to assemble it both ways
> on the shaft
> (maybe even without the synchro rings to speed this up)
> along with the
> other gears and hubs. The hub offset will only work one
> way and it
> should be obvious when you have it on the wrong way. A
> huge gap or an
> impossible fit should be evident. I'd be surprised if
> there weren't
> racing oriented overhaul books on this trans that would
> have the
> detailed assembly info you need.

After hours of googling yesterday and today I finally came
up with this site (linked at the sub-page that seems most
relevant):
http://www.corvettemagazine.com/2005/july/transmission/transmission-26.asp

I have easily confirmed from several sites and drawings that
the taper of the {1st gear-2nd gear} synchronizing sleeve
points to the rear (that is, small end to the rear). Using
that fact, from the photo above and the five or so photos
after it it seems that the offset (that is, the boss on the
hub) points forward. Can you offer your opinion from the
photos?

The other day for three hours, with the instructor offering
unhelpful input, I tried installing it both ways, putting
the second gear on the mainshaft with the first gear and
seeing how well they aligned with the countershaft's
corresponding gears. I still wasn't certain I had it right.
Boss pointing forward was my also best guess then, though.

Reading the following is troubling: "You should also note
which direction the [first and second gear] clutch assembly
faces. It can be assembled in either direction, but it will
only work in one direction."

Many thanks. We have so much more to take apart, study, and
re-assemble in this class, and the instructor is so lame and
wastes so much time telling stories, to boot, that it is
kind of discouraging. I am learning a lot, just not, as I
said, very efficiently.

I'll try some more books at the library. I'm trying to do
this without buying a manual, for which, you're right, there
seem to be many available online, for one.
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Elle" wrote in message

> "Comboverfish" wrote
> > Elle wrote:
> >> Which way is the 1st/2nd Gear Synchronizing Hub (the part
> >> with the inserts, a.k.a. "keys" or "struts") supposed to
> >> be
> >> oriented? That is, which side faces the front?
> >>

*******snip**************

> >> I am taking a manual transmissions automotive course.
> >> This
> >> is the first time the instructor has overseen student
> >> breakdown and re-assembly of this particular
> >> transmission.
> >> He has already sent us down a few wrong paths.
> >> Unfortunately


************snip***************

> The other day for three hours, with the instructor offering
> unhelpful input, I tried installing it both ways, putting

***********snip*************

>
> Many thanks. We have so much more to take apart, study, and
> re-assemble in this class, and the instructor is so lame and
> wastes so much time telling stories, to boot, that it is
> kind of discouraging. I am learning a lot, just not, as I
> said, very efficiently.

Sounds like your instructor is either very new at the job or it is past time
for him to retire.

>
> I'll try some more books at the library. I'm trying to do
> this without buying a manual, for which, you're right, there
> seem to be many available online, for one.

I can't imagine having my students work on a transmission without the proper
repair manual, unless it was one they brought in on their own, against my
better judgment. In that case they are expexted to learn from their
mistakes.

>
>

Sorry to hear your instructor is attempting to teach a unit that he is not
familiar with. I hope he at least has some areas in which he is proficient.
I know that no one can know it all, but he should at least do what he has
to, in order to prepare himself to teach the lesson properly. Sounds like
you are doing a fine job of researching the information and perhaps that may
be a valuable lesson in itself, so try not to be discouraged. Good research
skills are very valuable in the automotive repair trade. I often let my
students try to figure things out and research for themselves for that very
reason, but I always make sure I know the correct procedure before I try to
teach it.

--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

In article ,
"Kevin" wrote:

> I can't imagine having my students work on a transmission without the proper
> repair manual, unless it was one they brought in on their own, against my
> better judgment. In that case they are expexted to learn from their
> mistakes.

The factory service manual doesn't show the hub orientation
either, it -does- mention to mark them to avoid the problem.

It's been 2 years since I've done a Muncie, so I can't remember
which way, but I can tell him that yes, the hubs will slide on
the shaft either way, but once you stack the rest of the gears on
the main shaft, it should be obvious if it's right or not.
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Kevin" wrote
> "Elle" wrote
> Sounds like your instructor is either very new at the job
> or it is past time
> for him to retire.

He is indeed new to the school and at the same time is kinda
old.

> I can't imagine having my students work on a transmission
> without the proper
> repair manual,

Bless you.

I noted a number of these transmission sites said the same
or else to mark the parts very carefully so one could get it
back together correctly.

> unless it was one they brought in on their own, against my
> better judgment. In that case they are expexted to learn
> from their
> mistakes.
>
>>
>>
>
> Sorry to hear your instructor is attempting to teach a
> unit that he is not
> familiar with. I hope he at least has some areas in which
> he is proficient.

Yes, he does. He can talk theory pretty well and has us
using the shop press pretty effectively for disassembly of
the gears etc. on the shafts.

A few notes for those folks maybe reading here and thinking
about teaching:

In the first few minutes of the first class he said he
didn't care whether we came to class or not. He is very
serious about that, and I noticed that already on most days
so far only half the class shows up.

I would have thought he would have cautioned us about taking
the transmission apart without at least doing careful
drawings of our own. He just egged us on, instead. I get the
feeling he thinks it's good for students to experience
frustration; builds character sort of attitude? That's
baloney, from where I'm sitting. My whole team wanted a
manual and went looking for one, first thing. But the class
is in theory 8 hours long. He chattered for an hour about
nothing the first day, sent us on an hour break, then told
us to take off and take apart the transmission. I didn't
even know the difference between a transmission and a
transaxle the first day. A little overview would have
helped.

I finally came up with some T10 drawings for my team.
Ultimately I turned up a Chilton's manual with a section on
it. Now I have the web site.

> I know that no one can know it all, but he should at least
> do what he has
> to, in order to prepare himself to teach the lesson
> properly.

Yes, that's how I feel.

I am also sort of bummed about the parts situation: So far
our lab's supervisor can't get his hands on a gasket kit.
Now we also need some new snap rings. Another instructor
(who is just a bona fide king of educating, theory- and
hands-on) was passing by while I worked the other day and
asked me what our diagnosis for the (malfunctioning)
transmission was. He knew the car and said he thought the
detente balls and shift fork springs likely needed
replacement. I said I saw those in the drawing; hadn't had a
chance to study this; but would get on it. So we probably
need these parts too. I suspect it may be more than a week
before the parts arrive.

If I were running this lab (cheeky gal that I am), I would
have told the students to forego repairs for now; just get
it apart carefully (with drawings, a manual, etc.) and
re-assemble. Let the next class do the diagnosis, hopefully
working with the manuals and drawings we found, as well as
an instructor properly re-acquainted with the T10.

> Sounds like
> you are doing a fine job of researching the information
> and perhaps that may
> be a valuable lesson in itself, so try not to be
> discouraged. Good research
> skills are very valuable in the automotive repair trade.

I agree, from my own work on my Honda Civic over the last
several years. But research and understanding the pros and
cons of the manual is already one of my strengths. I
/trusted/ that the instructor felt it was okay to go at this
transmission willy-nilly. My mistake. I am trying to take
responsibility for my and my team's errors here, but I can't
help but think we were set up for failure.

> I often let my
> students try to figure things out and research for
> themselves for that very
> reason, but I always make sure I know the correct
> procedure before I try to
> teach it.

I agree about the figuring out (in another life, I taught
college engineering with a pretty serious hands on large,
actual mechanical machines etc. lab), but if the students
are going down the wrong path and just making a mess of it,
they need to be set straight, lest too much time be wasted.
And time is precious in these courses, as I'm sure you know.

I appreciate your input very much and I bet if I sat through
your course, I'd wish we had more instructors like you.

I'm trying to get past blaming this instructor, of course. I
suspect these schools just can't get the very best. I remind
myself that just seeing up close, and putting my hands on,
the clutch assembly (synchronizing ring, hub, sleeve, etc.)
seeing how it works and all comes apart, is probably worth
what I paid for the course. In the next three weeks, if I
get to go through similar with the clutch (pressure plate,
friction disc, release bearing, etc.) and the CV joints,
then I really won't be able to complain. I am doing this
because I enjoy working on my car.

Enough talk. Thanks again for your insight.
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

Elle wrote:
> He has already sent us down a few wrong paths. Unfortunately
> my team and I did not make decent drawings prior to
> disassembly (dummies all).

Ever heard of these things called digital cameras?

You could capture the disassembly as a sequence of detailed images
showing all of the parts as they come off and all their orientation.
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

I have never worked on a T10 transmission but I have done a couple of Ford
Toploader 4 speeds.
I all ways buy a "small parts kit" It includes all shift fork detent pins
and springs, snap rings, rollers for the countershaft and reverse gear,
brass blocker rings and gaskets. I will usually buy input shaft and main
bearings.

The labor to tear these down and rebuild is the lion's share of the cost, so
replace all the small stuff while in there. You will have less come backs
and happier customers.

"Elle" wrote in message

> "Kevin" wrote
>> "Elle" wrote
>> Sounds like your instructor is either very new at the job or it is past
>> time
>> for him to retire.
>
> He is indeed new to the school and at the same time is kinda old.
>
>> I can't imagine having my students work on a transmission without the
>> proper
>> repair manual,
>
> Bless you.
>
> I noted a number of these transmission sites said the same or else to mark
> the parts very carefully so one could get it back together correctly.
>
>> unless it was one they brought in on their own, against my
>> better judgment. In that case they are expexted to learn from their
>> mistakes.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sorry to hear your instructor is attempting to teach a unit that he is
>> not
>> familiar with. I hope he at least has some areas in which he is
>> proficient.
>
> Yes, he does. He can talk theory pretty well and has us using the shop
> press pretty effectively for disassembly of the gears etc. on the shafts.
>
> A few notes for those folks maybe reading here and thinking about
> teaching:
>
> In the first few minutes of the first class he said he didn't care whether
> we came to class or not. He is very serious about that, and I noticed that
> already on most days so far only half the class shows up.
>
> I would have thought he would have cautioned us about taking the
> transmission apart without at least doing careful drawings of our own. He
> just egged us on, instead. I get the feeling he thinks it's good for
> students to experience frustration; builds character sort of attitude?
> That's baloney, from where I'm sitting. My whole team wanted a manual and
> went looking for one, first thing. But the class is in theory 8 hours
> long. He chattered for an hour about nothing the first day, sent us on an
> hour break, then told us to take off and take apart the transmission. I
> didn't even know the difference between a transmission and a transaxle the
> first day. A little overview would have helped.
>
> I finally came up with some T10 drawings for my team. Ultimately I turned
> up a Chilton's manual with a section on it. Now I have the web site.
>
>> I know that no one can know it all, but he should at least do what he has
>> to, in order to prepare himself to teach the lesson properly.
>
> Yes, that's how I feel.
>
> I am also sort of bummed about the parts situation: So far our lab's
> supervisor can't get his hands on a gasket kit. Now we also need some new
> snap rings. Another instructor (who is just a bona fide king of educating,
> theory- and hands-on) was passing by while I worked the other day and
> asked me what our diagnosis for the (malfunctioning) transmission was. He
> knew the car and said he thought the detente balls and shift fork springs
> likely needed replacement. I said I saw those in the drawing; hadn't had a
> chance to study this; but would get on it. So we probably need these parts
> too. I suspect it may be more than a week before the parts arrive.
>
> If I were running this lab (cheeky gal that I am), I would have told the
> students to forego repairs for now; just get it apart carefully (with
> drawings, a manual, etc.) and re-assemble. Let the next class do the
> diagnosis, hopefully working with the manuals and drawings we found, as
> well as an instructor properly re-acquainted with the T10.
>
>> Sounds like
>> you are doing a fine job of researching the information and perhaps that
>> may
>> be a valuable lesson in itself, so try not to be discouraged. Good
>> research
>> skills are very valuable in the automotive repair trade.
>
> I agree, from my own work on my Honda Civic over the last several years.
> But research and understanding the pros and cons of the manual is already
> one of my strengths. I /trusted/ that the instructor felt it was okay to
> go at this transmission willy-nilly. My mistake. I am trying to take
> responsibility for my and my team's errors here, but I can't help but
> think we were set up for failure.
>
>> I often let my
>> students try to figure things out and research for themselves for that
>> very
>> reason, but I always make sure I know the correct procedure before I try
>> to
>> teach it.
>
> I agree about the figuring out (in another life, I taught college
> engineering with a pretty serious hands on large, actual mechanical
> machines etc. lab), but if the students are going down the wrong path and
> just making a mess of it, they need to be set straight, lest too much time
> be wasted. And time is precious in these courses, as I'm sure you know.
>
> I appreciate your input very much and I bet if I sat through your course,
> I'd wish we had more instructors like you.
>
> I'm trying to get past blaming this instructor, of course. I suspect these
> schools just can't get the very best. I remind myself that just seeing up
> close, and putting my hands on, the clutch assembly (synchronizing ring,
> hub, sleeve, etc.) seeing how it works and all comes apart, is probably
> worth what I paid for the course. In the next three weeks, if I get to go
> through similar with the clutch (pressure plate, friction disc, release
> bearing, etc.) and the CV joints, then I really won't be able to complain.
> I am doing this because I enjoy working on my car.
>
> Enough talk. Thanks again for your insight.
>
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Tiger Pilot" wrote
>I have never worked on a T10 transmission but I have done a
>couple of Ford Toploader 4 speeds.
> I all ways buy a "small parts kit" It includes all shift
> fork detent pins and springs, snap rings, rollers for the
> countershaft and reverse gear, brass blocker rings and
> gaskets. I will usually buy input shaft and main bearings.

I happened upon the Ford Toploaders in my research and
understand. As you and I'm sure combover know, there's a lot
of overlap in the gear configuration etc. Kind of
interesting, at least to this tranny newbie.

Your suggestion about the parts is exactly what I need to
know, because, as I mentioned, I can see getting parts
holding us up.

Today I stopped by a local tranny shop to ask if they might
have access to just the snap rings, and the guy said no way.
He gave me an 800 number to an out of state shop. The
Internet might be easiest? Dunno but I suspect I'll be
googling for these kits by week's end. Not my job, but I
can't see this getting done otherwise.

> The labor to tear these down and rebuild is the lion's
> share of the cost, so replace all the small stuff while in
> there. You will have less come backs and happier
> customers.

Understood. The instructor might have our heads for not
having the car back together three weeks from now when the
course ends, unless it turns out parts cannot be obtained
easily. In which case a fair amount of the "blame" goes to
him for ordering us to clean up the (really filthy all
around) tranny until he could eat off it. We duly scraped
off the old gaskets. She isn't going to hold tranny fluid
without them, of course. I hate to leave a job undone, so
maybe, if I'm feeling crazy enough, I'll try to talk him
into letting me continue to work on it after the course is
over and the parts arrive.

Blah blah. Class starts again tomorrow. Hopefully someone
has some direction or our instructor thought this over over
the weekend and realizes our situation.
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Elle" wrote in message

Dunno but I suspect I'll be
> googling for these kits by week's end. Not my job, but I can't see this
> getting done otherwise.

You are correct, it is not really in your job description. But the person
who goes beyond "their job" is the one who adds the most value to their
employer. Those are the ones who get promoted and make top dollar. They
also have more job satisfaction because they "get the job done" Unless
carping about how nobody else is doing their job gives you pleasure.
Somehow I don't think that is your case.

Good luck getting the tranny back together.

Here are a couple of links to help your search

http://www.drivetrain.com/borgwarner_T10.html
http://tbtrans.com/t10_transmission.htm
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Tiger Pilot" wrote
> "Elle" wrote Dunno
> but I suspect I'll be
>> googling for these kits by week's end. Not my job, but I
>> can't see this getting done otherwise.
>
> You are correct, it is not really in your job description.
> But the person who goes beyond "their job" is the one who
> adds the most value to their employer. Those are the ones
> who get promoted and make top dollar. They also have more
> job satisfaction because they "get the job done" Unless
> carping about how nobody else is doing their job gives you
> pleasure.

Indeed.

> Somehow I don't think that is your case.

I am getting better at not complaining but just getting it
done.

> Good luck getting the tranny back together.
>
> Here are a couple of links to help your search
>
> http://www.drivetrain.com/borgwarner_T10.html
> http://tbtrans.com/t10_transmission.htm

Ha, GMTA: I spoke to the nice folks at Tbtrans earlier today
about a gasket kit and a small parts kit. I visitted the
drivetrain.com site several times last week. Great
resources.

Update:
First I spoke with the instructor about getting these parts.
He was polite and seemed also to have given this some
thought. I said I thought we'd have to use the 'net, and he
agreed. He said to get the darned things overnighted,
whipping out his personal credit card, and he'd get
reimbursement (at least, being a newbie instructor to the
school, he thought he could). So he's into this; bravo for
him. Further investigation resulted in our finding out this
really could not be done, because the school contracts with
certain vendors (for seemingly exorbitant prices, at least
compared to TBtrans.com). Blah blah bureaucracy.

The better Our lab technicians found a box of
miscellaneous snap rings which yielded the ones we needed.
The instructor has us using Permatex 'form-a-gasket' for the
various mating surfaces that call for new gaskets. We agreed
that, if the tranny leaks, no big deal; it will leave
something for the next class to fix. Detent balls will be
replaced using ball bearings of which the school also has an
ample and varied supply.

My teammates got together a good deal of the mainshaft
today, me offering only a hand or two, but studying it all
and still learning something. (Plus maybe my chipping in on
finding solutions for the parts situation and drawings is a
meaningful contribution. So I don't feel too bad with
minimal hands on participation... )

My teammates do not care to "use the book's instructions,"
even for general guidance, as much as I, though they used
the drawings plenty. I am pretty sure they got the 3/4
clutch sleeve and hub on backwards. We discussed it politely
and agreed to do it their way (like there was going to be
arguing; not ) and then see what happened. They felt
that the mechanical, hands on indications on the shafts etc.
were opposite to what my two drawings, one internet site,
and statements in the Chilton's manual said (namely, the
small end of the taper goes outboard).

As for my original query here on the 1/2 synchronizing hub,
we decided to follow the orientation of the 3/4 hub (which
we had left still assembled to the sleeve, as I noted
earlier): Offset ( = boss) pointing inboard.

Thank you for your input. A little wisdom from the older
hands helps the newbies progress more quickly, one way or
another, AFAIC.
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Elle" wrote
> My teammates do not care to "use the book's instructions,"
> even for general guidance, as much as I, though they used
> the drawings plenty. I am pretty sure they got the 3/4
> clutch sleeve and hub on backwards. We discussed it
> politely and agreed to do it their way (like there was
> going to be arguing; not ) and then see what
> happened. They felt that the mechanical, hands on
> indications on the shafts etc. were opposite to what my
> two drawings, one internet site, and statements in the
> Chilton's manual said (namely, the small end of the taper
> goes outboard).
>
> As for my original query here on the 1/2 synchronizing
> hub, we decided to follow the orientation of the 3/4 hub
> (which we had left still assembled to the sleeve, as I
> noted earlier): Offset ( = boss) pointing inboard.

Update for the archives:
I studied the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches more in the last day or
so and got to thinking that maybe placing the shift fork
assembly upon them, with everything in "neutral," would
yield important information. This was just an undeveloped
gut feel, because I didn't understand exactly how the shift
fork assembly worked with the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches at the
time. So before we got too far today (with the main shaft
still sitting outside the casing), I asked the instructor to
come over and talk us through the shift forks etc. He
immediately puts the shift fork assembly in neutral, locates
the two clutch sleeves also in neutral, talking all along,
and tries to seat the forks on the clutch sleeves' collars.
No fit! He spots the backwards 3/4 clutch sleeve, looks at
me, smiles, and says, 'You wanted that turned around, didn't
you?' I mumbled something about killing two birds with one
stone and smiled back. The group agreed the sleeve etc.
would only work with it oriented with the small ends of the
two sleeves' tapers outboard.

As for the clutch hubs: It now seems likely that this tranny
was dis-assembled at least once since it arrived at the
school. So the way it was put together prior to our getting
our hands on it was not necessarily correct.

This puts us back to about square one with the hub
orientations (boss inboard or outboard?). We'll try it all
out before we bolt the cover on and fully assemble it.
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Elle" wrote in message

> "Elle" wrote
>> My teammates do not care to "use the book's instructions," even for
>> general guidance, as much as I, though they used the drawings plenty. I
>> am pretty sure they got the 3/4 clutch sleeve and hub on backwards. We
>> discussed it politely and agreed to do it their way (like there was going
>> to be arguing; not ) and then see what happened. They felt that the
>> mechanical, hands on indications on the shafts etc. were opposite to what
>> my two drawings, one internet site, and statements in the Chilton's
>> manual said (namely, the small end of the taper goes outboard).
>>
>> As for my original query here on the 1/2 synchronizing hub, we decided to
>> follow the orientation of the 3/4 hub (which we had left still assembled
>> to the sleeve, as I noted earlier): Offset ( = boss) pointing inboard.
>
> Update for the archives:
> I studied the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches more in the last day or so and got to
> thinking that maybe placing the shift fork assembly upon them, with
> everything in "neutral," would yield important information. This was just
> an undeveloped gut feel, because I didn't understand exactly how the shift
> fork assembly worked with the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches at the time. So before
> we got too far today (with the main shaft still sitting outside the
> casing), I asked the instructor to come over and talk us through the shift
> forks etc. He immediately puts the shift fork assembly in neutral, locates
> the two clutch sleeves also in neutral, talking all along, and tries to
> seat the forks on the clutch sleeves' collars. No fit! He spots the
> backwards 3/4 clutch sleeve, looks at me, smiles, and says, 'You wanted
> that turned around, didn't you?' I mumbled something about killing two
> birds with one stone and smiled back. The group agreed the sleeve etc.
> would only work with it oriented with the small ends of the two sleeves'
> tapers outboard.
>
> As for the clutch hubs: It now seems likely that this tranny was
> dis-assembled at least once since it arrived at the school. So the way it
> was put together prior to our getting our hands on it was not necessarily
> correct.
>
> This puts us back to about square one with the hub orientations (boss
> inboard or outboard?). We'll try it all out before we bolt the cover on
> and fully assemble it.
>

After it is all said and done I'm certain you will have learned a few
valuable lessons. Even though you may now be proficient at rebuilding this
particular transmission and will probably never again in all your career
have to do another one, you will have at least imprinted many techniques and
usable skills for future problems. Good for you. At the risk of sounding
prejudice, maybe even good for the instructor too.
Successfully rebuilding the transmission is probably not nearly as important
as all the collateral knowledge and skills acquired in the process.
--
Kevin Mouton
Automotive Technology Instructor
"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

Kevin wrote:
> "Elle" wrote in message
>
>
>>"Elle" wrote
>>
>>>My teammates do not care to "use the book's instructions," even for
>>>general guidance, as much as I, though they used the drawings plenty. I
>>>am pretty sure they got the 3/4 clutch sleeve and hub on backwards. We
>>>discussed it politely and agreed to do it their way (like there was going
>>>to be arguing; not ) and then see what happened. They felt that the
>>>mechanical, hands on indications on the shafts etc. were opposite to what
>>>my two drawings, one internet site, and statements in the Chilton's
>>>manual said (namely, the small end of the taper goes outboard).
>>>
>>>As for my original query here on the 1/2 synchronizing hub, we decided to
>>>follow the orientation of the 3/4 hub (which we had left still assembled
>>>to the sleeve, as I noted earlier): Offset ( = boss) pointing inboard.
>>
>>Update for the archives:
>>I studied the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches more in the last day or so and got to
>>thinking that maybe placing the shift fork assembly upon them, with
>>everything in "neutral," would yield important information. This was just
>>an undeveloped gut feel, because I didn't understand exactly how the shift
>>fork assembly worked with the 1/2 and 3/4 clutches at the time. So before
>>we got too far today (with the main shaft still sitting outside the
>>casing), I asked the instructor to come over and talk us through the shift
>>forks etc. He immediately puts the shift fork assembly in neutral, locates
>>the two clutch sleeves also in neutral, talking all along, and tries to
>>seat the forks on the clutch sleeves' collars. No fit! He spots the
>>backwards 3/4 clutch sleeve, looks at me, smiles, and says, 'You wanted
>>that turned around, didn't you?' I mumbled something about killing two
>>birds with one stone and smiled back. The group agreed the sleeve etc.
>>would only work with it oriented with the small ends of the two sleeves'
>>tapers outboard.
>>
>>As for the clutch hubs: It now seems likely that this tranny was
>>dis-assembled at least once since it arrived at the school. So the way it
>>was put together prior to our getting our hands on it was not necessarily
>>correct.
>>
>>This puts us back to about square one with the hub orientations (boss
>>inboard or outboard?). We'll try it all out before we bolt the cover on
>>and fully assemble it.
>>
>
>
> After it is all said and done I'm certain you will have learned a few
> valuable lessons. Even though you may now be proficient at rebuilding this
> particular transmission and will probably never again in all your career
> have to do another one, you will have at least imprinted many techniques and
> usable skills for future problems. Good for you. At the risk of sounding
> prejudice, maybe even good for the instructor too.
> Successfully rebuilding the transmission is probably not nearly as important
> as all the collateral knowledge and skills acquired in the process.

There is no teacher like experience. Tips learned on this particular unit will
prepare you for others to come. I'm sure your classmates benefitted too. Where's the
pics so that we can all learn something...
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat.. 

"Tom Adkins" wrote
> Kevin wrote:
>> After it is all said and done I'm certain you will have
>> learned a few valuable lessons. Even though you may now
>> be proficient at rebuilding this particular transmission
>> and will probably never again in all your career have to
>> do another one, you will have at least imprinted many
>> techniques and usable skills for future problems.

Believe it or not, from past work on different systems of my
car over the years (among other, larger mechanical systems),
I do understand what you mean.

>> Good for you. At the risk of sounding prejudice, maybe
>> even good for the instructor too.

I agree. AFAIC, new instructors need to be cut some slack
(hopefully they return the favor).

>> Successfully rebuilding the transmission is probably not
>> nearly as important as all the collateral knowledge and
>> skills acquired in the process.
>
> There is no teacher like experience. Tips learned on this
> particular unit will prepare you for others to come. I'm
> sure your classmates benefitted too. Where's the pics so
> that we can all learn something...

Photos are the least I can do. Snapped some today. See

http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness/id19.html
 >> Stay informed about: T10 (Muncie too?) Transmission: Synchronizing Hub Orientat..