Synthetic for old Celica?

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 23:12:08 -0600, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:

>How long do you want to lengthen the oil change interval?


Ha-ha. Whatever ppl say + manufacturer's recommend then take the
longest of all suggestions. That was my plan anyways.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

bobb wrote:
> I want to use synthetic for my 200,000 miles Celica 3SFE engine.
>
> My ONLY reason for doing this is the LENGHTEN my time between oil
> changes, am one busy man.
>
> Don't care about anything else... WOULD I HAVE LEAK PROB? and if so I
> switch back to dino and everything would be fine right? No leak so
> far - knock-on-wood.
>
> Or should I well leave it alone?
>
> Toyota experts?

You should be fine with synthetic. The leaking problems went away as the
oil makers changed their formulas.

jeff
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Jeff" wrote in message

> You should be fine with synthetic. The leaking problems went away as the
> oil makers changed their formulas.
>
> jeff

IMO, it is possible that synthetic oil could allow more oil to slip past the
rings if you previously used conventional oil and your car has a lot of
miles on it (with the associated engine wear).You might want to use at least
a 10W-40 synthetic to lesson the chances of this happening.

But there is also now a Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-40 oil that you may want to
consider since it contains a special seal conditioner to help recondition
seals and prevent leaks. The slighter higher than normal weight will also
minimize the oil from slipping past the rings.

I think you could go up to 10,000 miles with Mobil 1 if you use a very good
oil filter. But I would do my first change at 3000 miles after initially
switching to a full synthetic, since it might loosen up some existing sludge
in your engine (unless you are certain it is clean as a whistle).
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"bobb" wrote in message

> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 23:12:08 -0600, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>
>>How long do you want to lengthen the oil change interval?
>
>
> Ha-ha. Whatever ppl say + manufacturer's recommend then take the
> longest of all suggestions. That was my plan anyways.

There are people who post in this group who know little about cars,
lubricants, and automotive lubrication systems. If you want the engine to
last, follow the automaker's oil change interval recommendations.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message

> There are people who post in this group who know little about cars,
> lubricants, and automotive lubrication systems. If you want the engine to
> last, follow the automaker's oil change interval recommendations.
> --
>
> Ray O

Since you do not work for a company that makes synthetic motor oils, and as
I recall you don't use a full synthetic in your own cars (and generally
think it is a waste of money), I don't think you are in a position to
comment on the knowledge of others on the subject of oil change intervals
for synthetic oils.

It is certainly not correct that an oil change interval would be the same
for a conventional and full synthetic oil. The only possible exception
"might" be the oil filter, but if one uses a high quality filter (I
typically use a Mobil 1 filter) and don't go crazy, one can go a bit beyond
the manufacturer's recommendations for oil change interval (which are
generally designed for conventional oils). Obviously, one would not
recommend this while the car is still under warranty for purely contractual
reasons.

I am convinced (after much study of this subject) that anyone who drives
more than 3000 miles on conventional oil (even if the manufacturer specifies
5000 mile intervals) is subjecting their engine to much more abuse than they
would by using a full synthetic with 10,000 mile oil change intervals (if
they use a high quality filter).
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Mark A" wrote in message

> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>
>> There are people who post in this group who know little about cars,
>> lubricants, and automotive lubrication systems. If you want the engine
>> to last, follow the automaker's oil change interval recommendations.
>> --
>>
>> Ray O
>
> Since you do not work for a company that makes synthetic motor oils, and
> as I recall you don't use a full synthetic in your own cars (and generally
> think it is a waste of money), I don't think you are in a position to
> comment on the knowledge of others on the subject of oil change intervals
> for synthetic oils.
>

No my experience is not with an oil company; it is with the automaker. Do
you have work experience with an oil company or automaker?

I do use synthetic in our three personal vehicles, but not because it saves
money. I use it because I prefer to use quality parts and materials in my
vehicles and follow the automaker's recommended oil change intervals, which
for our vehicles is 5,000 miles.

> It is certainly not correct that an oil change interval would be the same
> for a conventional and full synthetic oil. The only possible exception
> "might" be the oil filter, but if one uses a high quality filter (I
> typically use a Mobil 1 filter) and don't go crazy, one can go a bit
> beyond the manufacturer's recommendations for oil change interval (which
> are generally designed for conventional oils). Obviously, one would not
> recommend this while the car is still under warranty for purely
> contractual reasons.
>
> I am convinced (after much study of this subject) that anyone who drives
> more than 3000 miles on conventional oil (even if the manufacturer
> specifies 5000 mile intervals) is subjecting their engine to much more
> abuse than they would by using a full synthetic with 10,000 mile oil
> change intervals (if they use a high quality filter).

I am a little leery of "studies" by the oil companies, which have something
to gain by showing an advantage from using their product. I would believe a
long-term study of vehicles in a controlled and consumer use environments by
an independent testing agency, automaker, or API but have yet to see one.
The studies I have seen from sources that I consider credible without a
hidden agenda do show performance and wear benefits from using synthetic
oil, and that is why I use synthetic oil. From a cost standpoint, even at
double the oil change interval, the math doesn't seem to work out with
synthetic oil at triple the cost of conventional motor oil. Bottom line, I
use synthetic oil because it is good stuff, not because it saves money.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message

> No my experience is not with an oil company; it is with the automaker. Do
> you have work experience with an oil company or automaker?

No. But I do have experience working for NASA, although that does not make
me a rocket scientist. Likewise, your experience working for an automaker
was not as an automotive engineer.

The automaker you worked for does not recommend synthetic oils (although I
don't think they recommend against it). A person who is knowledgable about
motor oils could reasonably conclude that if the automaker specifies
conventional oil, then their oil change interval is for conventional oil,
and not for synthetic oil (it is not practical for them to differentiate,
becasue it would be almost impossible for the automaker to know for sure
what the customer used). Likewise, if one was using synthetic oil, one could
theorectically go a bit longer between oil changes. Most auto makers in
Europe have much longer oil change intevals than in the US, even for the
exact same cars as sold in the US.

> I do use synthetic in our three personal vehicles, but not because it
> saves money. I use it because I prefer to use quality parts and materials
> in my vehicles and follow the automaker's recommended oil change
> intervals, which for our vehicles is 5,000 miles.

That is strange (to put it mildly) since I don't recall you ever
recommending synthetic oil. Is this a fairly recent turn of events?

> I am a little leery of "studies" by the oil companies, which have
> something to gain by showing an advantage from using their product. I
> would believe a long-term study of vehicles in a controlled and consumer
> use environments by an independent testing agency, automaker, or API but
> have yet to see one. The studies I have seen from sources that I consider
> credible without a hidden agenda do show performance and wear benefits
> from using synthetic oil, and that is why I use synthetic oil. From a
> cost standpoint, even at double the oil change interval, the math doesn't
> seem to work out with synthetic oil at triple the cost of conventional
> motor oil. Bottom line, I use synthetic oil because it is good stuff, not
> because it saves money.

I never said the study was by an oil company. I don't even see how it is in
the best interests of an oil company to advocate prolonging oil changes. The
other thing to remember is that the vehicle in question has 300,000 miles on
it, all with conventional oil (I am presuming from the OP). If someone
really, really wants to extend there oil change interval on a car with
300,000 miles, and they are using a full synthetic, I don't think 10,000
miles is unreasonable. I would not use a 10,000 mile interval on a newer
car, but that is just my opinion.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Mark A" wrote in message

> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>
>> No my experience is not with an oil company; it is with the automaker.
>> Do you have work experience with an oil company or automaker?
>
> No. But I do have experience working for NASA, although that does not make
> me a rocket scientist. Likewise, your experience working for an automaker
> was not as an automotive engineer.

True, which is why I got information from the automotive engineers that
designed the cars and engines.

>
> The automaker you worked for does not recommend synthetic oils (although I
> don't think they recommend against it). A person who is knowledgable about
> motor oils could reasonably conclude that if the automaker specifies
> conventional oil, then their oil change interval is for conventional oil,
> and not for synthetic oil (it is not practical for them to differentiate,
> becasue it would be almost impossible for the automaker to know for sure
> what the customer used). Likewise, if one was using synthetic oil, one
> could theorectically go a bit longer between oil changes. Most auto makers
> in Europe have much longer oil change intevals than in the US, even for
> the exact same cars as sold in the US.
>
>> I do use synthetic in our three personal vehicles, but not because it
>> saves money. I use it because I prefer to use quality parts and
>> materials in my vehicles and follow the automaker's recommended oil
>> change intervals, which for our vehicles is 5,000 miles.
>
> That is strange (to put it mildly) since I don't recall you ever
> recommending synthetic oil. Is this a fairly recent turn of events?

I've been using synthetic oil for about two years. Although I use it for
the reasons I stated, I don't actually recommend it because all those years
of working with engineers has made me think like them. The recommendations
I make in this group are very conservative. If I don't have personal
knowledge or experience about a subject, I either do not make any
recommendation or preface the recommendation with "in my opinion" or "I
think." The customers who came to me for advice or information were
looking for expert advice, and expect that advice or information to be
correct and with a basis of knowledge far above what they get from their
friends, relatives, neighbors, auto service chain, auto magazines, and even
their dealers. In order to meet those expectations, I very quickly learned
to differentiate what I *know* and what I *think* and if I didn't know, to
go to the people in the organization who did know for information.

>> I am a little leery of "studies" by the oil companies, which have
>> something to gain by showing an advantage from using their product. I
>> would believe a long-term study of vehicles in a controlled and consumer
>> use environments by an independent testing agency, automaker, or API but
>> have yet to see one. The studies I have seen from sources that I consider
>> credible without a hidden agenda do show performance and wear benefits
>> from using synthetic oil, and that is why I use synthetic oil. From a
>> cost standpoint, even at double the oil change interval, the math doesn't
>> seem to work out with synthetic oil at triple the cost of conventional
>> motor oil. Bottom line, I use synthetic oil because it is good stuff,
>> not because it saves money.
>
> I never said the study was by an oil company. I don't even see how it is
> in the best interests of an oil company to advocate prolonging oil
> changes. The other thing to remember is that the vehicle in question has
> 300,000 miles on it, all with conventional oil (I am presuming from the
> OP). If someone really, really wants to extend there oil change interval
> on a car with 300,000 miles, and they are using a full synthetic, I don't
> think 10,000 miles is unreasonable. I would not use a 10,000 mile interval
> on a newer car, but that is just my opinion.

I don't doubt that synthetic oil provides ample lubrication well beyond the
5,000 mile mark, but besides providing lubrication, motor oil has to suspend
the by-products of combustion, some of which are not captured by the oil
filter. Those by-products are what make motor oil turn black over time. I
change the oil in my vehicles myself, and the used synthetic oil coming out
is just as black as with conventional oil, and I'm not convinced that it is
a good idea to keep circulating the dirty oil through out the engine and oil
filter. For example, if you were comparing two different dishwashing
detergents in two sinkfuls of water, and detergent A could wash 50 dishes
and detergent B could wash 100 dishes effectively, that would mean that the
water in the sink with detergent B would be twice as dirty, even if you were
filtering out all of the solid particles in the water. In the case of
whatever is turning the oil black, perhaps it doesn't do any harm to have
twice as much of it in the oil, but I personally do not *know* whether that
is true or not so I take the safe route and stick to the factory
recommendations for oil change intervals.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message

> True, which is why I got information from the automotive engineers that
> designed the cars and engines.

I doubt that you talk to them directly, since the engines are designed in
Japan, even if they are made in USA. But anyway, I get my information from
the same people, but not necessarily just from Toyota engineers. Also, I get
the "unofficial" and "off-the-record" opinion, and not the company policy.

> I've been using synthetic oil for about two years. Although I use it for
> the reasons I stated, I don't actually recommend it because all those
> years of working with engineers has made me think like them. The
> recommendations I make in this group are very conservative. If I don't
> have personal knowledge or experience about a subject, I either do not
> make any recommendation or preface the recommendation with "in my opinion"
> or "I think." The customers who came to me for advice or information
> were looking for expert advice, and expect that advice or information to
> be correct and with a basis of knowledge far above what they get from
> their friends, relatives, neighbors, auto service chain, auto magazines,
> and even their dealers. In order to meet those expectations, I very
> quickly learned to differentiate what I *know* and what I *think* and if I
> didn't know, to go to the people in the organization who did know for
> information.

This is not a very convincing reason for you to use synthetic in your own
personal vehicles, but recommending conventional oil for everyone else. The
obvious reason for your behavior is that Toyota does not specify synthetic,
and you are toeing the company line rather than giving good advice.

Toyota does not want to specify synthetic because that will be competitors
an advantage (the Honda sales person will tell you how much more money you
will have to pay for synthetic oil changes).

> I don't doubt that synthetic oil provides ample lubrication well beyond
> the 5,000 mile mark, but besides providing lubrication, motor oil has to
> suspend the by-products of combustion, some of which are not captured by
> the oil filter. Those by-products are what make motor oil turn black over
> time. I change the oil in my vehicles myself, and the used synthetic oil
> coming out is just as black as with conventional oil, and I'm not
> convinced that it is a good idea to keep circulating the dirty oil through
> out the engine and oil filter. For example, if you were comparing two
> different dishwashing detergents in two sinkfuls of water, and detergent A
> could wash 50 dishes and detergent B could wash 100 dishes effectively,
> that would mean that the water in the sink with detergent B would be twice
> as dirty, even if you were filtering out all of the solid particles in the
> water. In the case of whatever is turning the oil black, perhaps it
> doesn't do any harm to have twice as much of it in the oil, but I
> personally do not *know* whether that is true or not so I take the safe
> route and stick to the factory recommendations for oil change intervals.

Such hyperbole may be appropriate for a brand new vehicle, but is rather
ridiculous for a vehicle with 300,000 miles on it.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Mark A" wrote in message

> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>
>> True, which is why I got information from the automotive engineers that
>> designed the cars and engines.
>
> I doubt that you talk to them directly, since the engines are designed in
> Japan, even if they are made in USA. But anyway, I get my information from
> the same people, but not necessarily just from Toyota engineers. Also, I
> get the "unofficial" and "off-the-record" opinion, and not the company
> policy.

Since I no longer work for the company, I no longer talk to them directly.
When I did work for the company, the Japanese engineers often came to our
office when they wanted to visit dealers to check out customer cars because
I was one of the few people in a field office that could speak Japanese.
When Toyota's engineers want to study real world perfomance of the vehicles
they designed, they contact district service managers and ask them to
contact their dealers and ask them to bring their vehicles to the dealership
on the days that they are visiting in return for a free maintenance check
It was a lot easier for them to just call me and explain what they wanted in
their native language than to have their request translated and then arrive
at the dealership and find that someting was lost in translation.

Yes, I'll admit that the information I provide does reflect Toyota's company
policy.

When people are looking for technical advice, I suspect that they often want
the automaker's company policy or opinion, more than unofficial and off the
record opinions.

>
>> I've been using synthetic oil for about two years. Although I use it for
>> the reasons I stated, I don't actually recommend it because all those
>> years of working with engineers has made me think like them. The
>> recommendations I make in this group are very conservative. If I don't
>> have personal knowledge or experience about a subject, I either do not
>> make any recommendation or preface the recommendation with "in my
>> opinion" or "I think." The customers who came to me for advice or
>> information were looking for expert advice, and expect that advice or
>> information to be correct and with a basis of knowledge far above what
>> they get from their friends, relatives, neighbors, auto service chain,
>> auto magazines, and even their dealers. In order to meet those
>> expectations, I very quickly learned to differentiate what I *know* and
>> what I *think* and if I didn't know, to go to the people in the
>> organization who did know for information.
>
> This is not a very convincing reason for you to use synthetic in your own
> personal vehicles, but recommending conventional oil for everyone else.
> The obvious reason for your behavior is that Toyota does not specify
> synthetic, and you are toeing the company line rather than giving good
> advice.
>

I think you are confusing my recommendations, probably because they are not
always clear, and perhaps because you think that the only reason to use
synthetic oil is to extend the oil change intervals. I am not saying that
everyone should use conventional oil. I am saying that if one uses
synthetic oil, one should still stick to the automaker's recommended oil
change intervals.

I think we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree. I guess people
looking for advice can decide for themselves whether your advice, which is
based on your research from various sources, watcing the guy at the quick
change place change your oil from start to finish, and unofficial and off
the record opinion, is good or better advice than mine, which is admittedly
based on Toyota's company line and the engineers who designed the engines
and who don't want Honda to have an advantage over Toyota in oil change
recommendations.

> Toyota does not want to specify synthetic because that will be competitors
> an advantage (the Honda sales person will tell you how much more money you
> will have to pay for synthetic oil changes).
>
>> I don't doubt that synthetic oil provides ample lubrication well beyond
>> the 5,000 mile mark, but besides providing lubrication, motor oil has to
>> don't suspend the by-products of combustion, some of which are not
>> captured by the oil filter. Those by-products are what make motor oil
>> turn black over time. I change the oil in my vehicles myself, and the
>> used synthetic oil coming out is just as black as with conventional oil,
>> and I'm not convinced that it is a good idea to keep circulating the
>> dirty oil through out the engine and oil filter. For example, if you
>> were comparing two different dishwashing detergents in two sinkfuls of
>> water, and detergent A could wash 50 dishes and detergent B could wash
>> 100 dishes effectively, that would mean that the water in the sink with
>> detergent B would be twice as dirty, even if you were filtering out all
>> of the solid particles in the water. In the case of whatever is turning
>> the oil black, perhaps it doesn't do any harm to have twice as much of it
>> in the oil, but I personally do not *know* whether that is true or not so
>> I take the safe route and stick to the factory recommendations for oil
>> change intervals.
>
> Such hyperbole may be appropriate for a brand new vehicle, but is rather
> ridiculous for a vehicle with 300,000 miles on it.

Why is it ridiculous? What is the difference in needing engine protection
between a brand new vehicle and one with 300,000 miles?
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

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 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

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 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica? 

"Scott 'owner of Witless' in Florida" wrote in message

> What the hell are you talking about?
>
> You are making an arse out of yourself.....
>
> Scott in Florida

I am talking about the fact that in all the posts he made about synthetic
vs. conventional oil, he never once disclosed that he uses synthetic oil in
his 3 personal vehicles. This is a fact that once would not have surmised by
the content of his previous posts on this subject.
 >> Stay informed about: Synthetic for old Celica?