Starter Weirdness

On Dec 13, 7:35 pm, "nobody >" wrote:
> Florian /FFF/ wrote:
> > I have a 1998 2.5 Legacy GT Wagon with a strange starter issue.
>
> > In cold weather, the starter won't work. I can hear a click and the
> > battery seem to be charged. Turning the key in the ignition again and
> > again eventually turns the engine over. In warmer weather, not a
> > problem. It has also happened twice that the starter did not disengage
> > after turning over the engine. Turning off the ignition completely
> > doesn't help. Does that seem like a starter issue or a wiring issue?
>
> The cold weather no-start syndrome is almost guaranteed to be a weak
> battery.

Forgot to mention: The battery has been replaced. The symptoms
happened with the old battery as well.
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

If you are sure the battery posts and clamps are clean where they connect
together, then, your symptoms also indicate bad brushes in the starter,
which I think it is.
The brushes can be replaced or you can get a new starter.
You indicate more symptoms than just cold weather, that's why I discarded
the battery thing.

--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
"Florian /FFF/" wrote in message

>I have a 1998 2.5 Legacy GT Wagon with a strange starter issue.
>
> In cold weather, the starter won't work. I can hear a click and the
> battery seem to be charged. Turning the key in the ignition again and
> again eventually turns the engine over. In warmer weather, not a
> problem. It has also happened twice that the starter did not disengage
> after turning over the engine. Turning off the ignition completely
> doesn't help. Does that seem like a starter issue or a wiring issue?
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

Bob Noble wrote:
> If you are sure the battery posts and clamps are clean where they
> connect together, then, your symptoms also indicate bad brushes in the
> starter, which I think it is.
> The brushes can be replaced or you can get a new starter.
> You indicate more symptoms than just cold weather, that's why I
> discarded the battery thing.
>
Hi,
Simple and easy to do is turn in the old starter for new replacement
and\no more starter problem.
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

Bob Noble wrote:

> If you are sure the battery posts and clamps are clean where they
> connect together, then, your symptoms also indicate bad brushes in the
> starter, which I think it is.
> The brushes can be replaced or you can get a new starter.
> You indicate more symptoms than just cold weather, that's why I
> discarded the battery thing.
>

I'd say the pronlem could very well be the starter solenoid. It CAN be
rebuilt, but for most folks a new/rebuilt starter is just as easy.


Carl

--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
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I agree Carl,
It's possible, but their symptoms indicate the brushes.
When the brushes get worn or the springs get overheated they don't make good
contact, just like the solenoid.
The brushes usually cause weirder problems than the solenoid.
But alas, when going on some one else's verbal explanation of a problem, it
could be anything and yes, the solenoid sure could be the culprit.

--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message

> Bob Noble wrote:
>
>> If you are sure the battery posts and clamps are clean where they connect
>> together, then, your symptoms also indicate bad brushes in the starter,
>> which I think it is.
>> The brushes can be replaced or you can get a new starter.
>> You indicate more symptoms than just cold weather, that's why I discarded
>> the battery thing.
>>
>
> I'd say the pronlem could very well be the starter solenoid. It CAN be
> rebuilt, but for most folks a new/rebuilt starter is just as easy.
>
>
> Carl
>
> --
> to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

"Bob Noble" Dec 14, 2008 at 10:39 AM wrote:


>I agree Carl,
>It's possible, but their symptoms indicate the brushes.
>When the brushes get worn or the springs get overheated they don't make
good
>contact, just like the solenoid.
>The brushes usually cause weirder problems than the solenoid.
>But alas, when going on some one else's verbal explanation of a problem,
it
>could be anything and yes, the solenoid sure could be the culprit.

>--
>Bob Noble
>http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
>"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message
>
>> Bob Noble wrote:
>>
>>> If you are sure the battery posts and clamps are clean where they
connect
>>> together, then, your symptoms also indicate bad brushes in the
starter,

>>> which I think it is.
>>> The brushes can be replaced or you can get a new starter.
>>> You indicate more symptoms than just cold weather, that's why I
discarded
>>> the battery thing.
>>>
>>
>> I'd say the pronlem could very well be the starter solenoid. It CAN be

>> rebuilt, but for most folks a new/rebuilt starter is just as easy.
>>
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> --
>> to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

If it wasn't temperature dependent, I'd go with an each way bet. As it is,
I'm leaning towards brushes. IME, solenoids usually either just fail or
else do the intermittent "click then start later" thing with increasing
frequency before finally dying. If an starter exchange motor is cheaper
than the labour to do proper diags, I'd go that way. Cheers

--
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.subaru/
More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html
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The not disengaging cannot be pinned on the brushes. I go with the
solenoid that could cause both if it is binding inside. When you say
cold weather, how cold is cold?

Good luck

hippo wrote:

> "Bob Noble" Dec 14, 2008 at 10:39 AM wrote:
>
>
>
>>I agree Carl,
>>It's possible, but their symptoms indicate the brushes.
>>When the brushes get worn or the springs get overheated they don't make
>
> good
>
>>contact, just like the solenoid.
>>The brushes usually cause weirder problems than the solenoid.
>>But alas, when going on some one else's verbal explanation of a problem,
>
> it
>
>>could be anything and yes, the solenoid sure could be the culprit.
>
>
>>--
>>Bob Noble
>>http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
>>"Carl 1 Lucky Texan" wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>Bob Noble wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>If you are sure the battery posts and clamps are clean where they
>
> connect
>
>>>>together, then, your symptoms also indicate bad brushes in the
>
> starter,
>
>
>>>>which I think it is.
>>>>The brushes can be replaced or you can get a new starter.
>>>>You indicate more symptoms than just cold weather, that's why I
>
> discarded
>
>>>>the battery thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I'd say the pronlem could very well be the starter solenoid. It CAN be
>
>
>>>rebuilt, but for most folks a new/rebuilt starter is just as easy.
>>>
>>>
>>>Carl
>>>
>>>--
>>>to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
>
>
> If it wasn't temperature dependent, I'd go with an each way bet. As it is,
> I'm leaning towards brushes. IME, solenoids usually either just fail or
> else do the intermittent "click then start later" thing with increasing
> frequency before finally dying. If an starter exchange motor is cheaper
> than the labour to do proper diags, I'd go that way. Cheers
>
> --
> Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.subaru/
> More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html
>
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

Good point.
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
"AS" wrote in message

> The not disengaging cannot be pinned on the brushes. I go with the
> solenoid that could cause both if it is binding inside. When you say cold
> weather, how cold is cold?
>
> Good luck
>
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

Florian /FFF/ wrote:
> I have a 1998 2.5 Legacy GT Wagon with a strange starter issue.
>
> In cold weather, the starter won't work. I can hear a click and the
> battery seem to be charged. Turning the key in the ignition again and
> again eventually turns the engine over. In warmer weather, not a
> problem. It has also happened twice that the starter did not disengage
> after turning over the engine.

Remove the starter motor and apply grease to the shaft that the starter
gear moves along.
Reinstall starter motor.


Turning off the ignition completely
> doesn't help. Does that seem like a starter issue or a wiring issue?
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

Hi Florian!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:00:29 -0800 (PST), "Florian /FFF/"
wrote:

>I have a 1998 2.5 Legacy GT Wagon with a strange starter issue.
>
>In cold weather, the starter won't work. I can hear a click and the
>battery seem to be charged. Turning the key in the ignition again and
>again eventually turns the engine over. In warmer weather, not a
>problem. It has also happened twice that the starter did not disengage
>after turning over the engine. Turning off the ignition completely
>doesn't help. Does that seem like a starter issue or a wiring issue?

I too would guess that your starter is failing. Specifically the
solenoid; it's not making contact reliably (click when key is turned),
and occasionally not releasing either (starter not disengaging).

This is usually caused by contamination buildup inside the solenoid
from the contacts and starter motor brushes. These symptoms _will_
get worse with cold, and will eventually the starter will fail
altogether. (Perhaps catastrophically, if the starter fails to
disengage, and you hit the highway w/o noticing it . . .)

You can probably disassemble the starter and clean things up, but for
the time and effort spent, you will be better off, IMO, to simply
replace the starter. It's a fairly easy task, and for this reason, I'd
recommend getting one from a salvage yard.

ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101
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"S" wrote in message

> Hi Florian!
>
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:00:29 -0800 (PST), "Florian /FFF/"
> wrote:
>
>>I have a 1998 2.5 Legacy GT Wagon with a strange starter issue.
>>
>>In cold weather, the starter won't work. I can hear a click and the
>>battery seem to be charged. Turning the key in the ignition again and
>>again eventually turns the engine over. In warmer weather, not a
>>problem. It has also happened twice that the starter did not disengage
>>after turning over the engine. Turning off the ignition completely
>>doesn't help. Does that seem like a starter issue or a wiring issue?

Solenoid/age stickiness is very likely, but there are more possible reasons
for it clicking and not starting, as I have found from the 86 Peugeot 505
Diesel: 1) an age related internal degeneration of the battery cables INSIDE
the covering. Try bypassing the cable/putting a jumper on to see if there is
a hidden corrosion issue. 2) [this might be a Peugeot only problem] pehaps
there is a key switch weakness that could be temp related as well. When
warm, enough juice flows, but as it gets cold, the wires etc contract.
Actually, there isn't enough juice in a Pug's case to do more than make the
solenoid click. 505 gas and diesel are infamous for both, and a separate
relay to bypass the weak ignition switch and cable replacements are the
noted fixes for these. I have always wondered about Subarus as the starters
always seems to turn over slowly even with a new battery once the weather
gets cold, and they are a few years old.

But since you said it doesn't disengage at times, go with simple & replace
starter. Really, it sounds like it is binding up both on engage and
disengage.

Jim B
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

jim shooz wrote:
> Florian /FFF/ wrote:
>> I have a 1998 2.5 Legacy GT Wagon with a strange starter issue.
>>
>> In cold weather, the starter won't work. I can hear a click and the
>> battery seem to be charged. Turning the key in the ignition again and
>> again eventually turns the engine over. In warmer weather, not a
>> problem. It has also happened twice that the starter did not disengage
>> after turning over the engine.
>
> Remove the starter motor and apply grease to the shaft that the starter
> gear moves along.
> Reinstall starter motor.
>
>
> Turning off the ignition completely
>> doesn't help. Does that seem like a starter issue or a wiring issue?
I was taught never under any circumstances to grease or lubricate this
shaft (Bendix), as this will cause extra friction on the solinoid,
slowing down the engagement and disingagement of the drive gear.
Clean the bendix in Petrol, dry then reassemble.
The accumulation of dust from the clutch can also cause problems in the
Bendix.
This may or may not clear your problem, but in general I have found to
replace the complete stater to give the best results.
You could end up trying several thing, and still need to replace the
starter.
 >> Stay informed about: Starter Weirdness 

On Jan 11, 8:02 am, pip wrote:
> jim shooz wrote:
> > Florian /FFF/ wrote:
> >> I have a 1998 2.5 Legacy GT Wagon with a strangestarterissue.
>
> >> In cold weather, thestarterwon't work. I can hear a click and the
> >> battery seem to be charged. Turning the key in the ignition again and
> >> again eventually turns the engine over. In warmer weather, not a
> >> problem. It has also happened twice that thestarterdid not disengage
> >> after turning over the engine.
>
> > Remove thestartermotor and apply grease to the shaft that thestarter
> > gear moves along.
> > Reinstallstartermotor.
>
> >  Turning off the ignition completely
> >> doesn't help. Does that seem like astarterissue or a wiring issue?
>
> I was taught never under any circumstances to grease or lubricate this
> shaft (Bendix), as this will cause extra friction on the solinoid,
> slowing down the engagement and disingagement of the drive gear.
> Clean the bendix in Petrol, dry then reassemble.
> The accumulation of dust from the clutch can also cause problems in the
> Bendix.
> This may or may not clear your problem, but in general I have found to
> replace the complete stater to give the best results.
> You could end up trying several thing, and still need to replace thestarter.

For what it's worth, replacing the starter fixed the issue. The
brushes and solenoid are not "user serviceable".

The cost of the repair (parts, labor, 8.375% NYC tax): $321.87
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