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External
Since: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 82
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:09 pm
Post subject: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting  Get Alert
Archived from groups: uk>rec>cars>maintenance, others (more info?)
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Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in today)
idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's going to
stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had it's
MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine wise it's been
okay. Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area (front left side)
pretty much the entire time we've had it (6 years) - but not enough to
cause us to have to top up much between oil changes, some tapping from
the cam shaft (again, pretty much the whole time). No issues though
with the running of the engine, starts immediately first time every
time. Coolant has been okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the coolant
has always looked a bit rusty between changes, and is probably due for a
change.
Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per year.
Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a year or so
ago when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) - but haven't
checked this time.
One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently (last
couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its own. I
reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when, after half a
tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading only a couple of miles.
Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we pulled
away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears, it seemed to
reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then though, we've done
about 15 miles without it resetting, even though we've had to stop the
engine for a bit, and when re-started it was lumpy again. Might be a
red-herring - but might be helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical
problem (coil pack?) causing the trip counter to reset - which may also
affect the ignition - but I've got no real idea of *why* it might cause
it! Just a wild hypothesis.
There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
David |
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External
Since: Feb 19, 2008
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 222
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Jul 17, 2005
Posts: 151
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David Hearn" <dave.RemoveThis@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in today)
> idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's going to stall
> (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>
> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had it's MOT
> done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine wise it's been okay.
> Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area (front left side) pretty much
> the entire time we've had it (6 years) - but not enough to cause us to
> have to top up much between oil changes, some tapping from the cam shaft
> (again, pretty much the whole time). No issues though with the running of
> the engine, starts immediately first time every time. Coolant has been
> okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the coolant has always looked a bit
> rusty between changes, and is probably due for a change.
>
> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per year. Oil
> change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a year or so ago
> when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) - but haven't checked
> this time.
>
> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently (last
> couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its own. I reset
> it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when, after half a tank of
> fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading only a couple of miles.
>
> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we pulled
> away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears, it seemed to
> reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then though, we've done
> about 15 miles without it resetting, even though we've had to stop the
> engine for a bit, and when re-started it was lumpy again. Might be a
> red-herring - but might be helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical
> problem (coil pack?) causing the trip counter to reset - which may also
> affect the ignition - but I've got no real idea of *why* it might cause
> it! Just a wild hypothesis.
>
> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>
This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having the
injector cleaned / replaced.
Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness / stiffness.
Tim. >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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External
Since: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 28
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:25 am
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 20, 8:21 am, David Hearn <d... DeleteThis @NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote:
> Alex Buell wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:09:00 +0000, I waved a wand and this message
> > magically appears in front of David Hearn:
>
> >> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>
> >> Any suggestions?
>
> > Might be a worn camshaft?
>
> I think it might be a bit worn as I've adjusted the valve clearances
> before to try and solve the tapping I've heard from that area at certain
> RPMs - but made no difference.
>
> The stuttering/lumpyness actually seems to go after a few miles driving
> - but immediately returns when you stop and restart the engine, even it
> was fine before (eg. stopped and restarted at some lights).
>
> Is it worth purchasing an OBD reader of some sort to see if anything is
> wrong, or would it only show a fault code if the engine light is on?
>
> D
They sell them at this place: www.ecutools.com but I don't think your
98 model is covered. You can get fault codes without the engine light
coming on.
You might want to try this: http://www.peugeotdiesel.com/ECU_Faults.html
My recommendation is to disconnect and clean the battery terminals.
Plus leaving the battery off for 5 mins plus will also reset the ECU.
Then start up and take the vehicle for a good run. Might be solved as
simply as that. >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 82
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:15 am
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 82
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:20 am
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim.. wrote:
> "David Hearn" <dave.RemoveThis@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in today)
>> idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's going to stall
>> (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>
>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had it's MOT
>> done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine wise it's been okay.
>> Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area (front left side) pretty much
>> the entire time we've had it (6 years) - but not enough to cause us to
>> have to top up much between oil changes, some tapping from the cam shaft
>> (again, pretty much the whole time). No issues though with the running of
>> the engine, starts immediately first time every time. Coolant has been
>> okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the coolant has always looked a bit
>> rusty between changes, and is probably due for a change.
>>
>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per year. Oil
>> change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a year or so ago
>> when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) - but haven't checked
>> this time.
>>
>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently (last
>> couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its own. I reset
>> it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when, after half a tank of
>> fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading only a couple of miles.
>>
>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we pulled
>> away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears, it seemed to
>> reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then though, we've done
>> about 15 miles without it resetting, even though we've had to stop the
>> engine for a bit, and when re-started it was lumpy again. Might be a
>> red-herring - but might be helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical
>> problem (coil pack?) causing the trip counter to reset - which may also
>> affect the ignition - but I've got no real idea of *why* it might cause
>> it! Just a wild hypothesis.
>>
>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>
>
> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having the
> injector cleaned / replaced.
I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms appear
immediately after starting the engine, even when warm. After driving a
couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in the idling. I tried it
at some lights yesterday after driving for a bit, immediately after
restarting it was lumpy again.
I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again). No idea
of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the speedo motor died a
while back and I swapped motors to get a working speedo - cheaper than
£400 for a new instrument cluster from Peugeot).
>
> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness / stiffness.
>
> Tim.
Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it? 
D >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 82
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Alex Buell wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:09:00 +0000, I waved a wand and this message
> magically appears in front of David Hearn:
>
>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>
> Might be a worn camshaft?
I think it might be a bit worn as I've adjusted the valve clearances
before to try and solve the tapping I've heard from that area at certain
RPMs - but made no difference.
The stuttering/lumpyness actually seems to go after a few miles driving
- but immediately returns when you stop and restart the engine, even it
was fine before (eg. stopped and restarted at some lights).
Is it worth purchasing an OBD reader of some sort to see if anything is
wrong, or would it only show a fault code if the engine light is on?
D >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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External
Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 20
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Hearn wrote:
> Tim.. wrote:
>> "David Hearn" <dave.RemoveThis@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in
>>> today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's
>>> going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>
>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had
>>> it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine wise
>>> it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area (front
>>> left side) pretty much the entire time we've had it (6 years) - but
>>> not enough to cause us to have to top up much between oil changes,
>>> some tapping from the cam shaft (again, pretty much the whole time).
>>> No issues though with the running of the engine, starts immediately
>>> first time every time. Coolant has been okay-ish. No noticable mayo
>>> - but the coolant has always looked a bit rusty between changes, and
>>> is probably due for a change.
>>>
>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per year.
>>> Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a year or
>>> so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) - but haven't
>>> checked this time.
>>>
>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its
>>> own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when, after
>>> half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading only a
>>> couple of miles.
>>>
>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we
>>> pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears, it
>>> seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then though,
>>> we've done about 15 miles without it resetting, even though we've had
>>> to stop the engine for a bit, and when re-started it was lumpy
>>> again. Might be a red-herring - but might be helpful. I'm wondering
>>> if it's an electrical problem (coil pack?) causing the trip counter
>>> to reset - which may also affect the ignition - but I've got no real
>>> idea of *why* it might cause it! Just a wild hypothesis.
>>>
>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>
>>
>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having the
>> injector cleaned / replaced.
>
> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms appear
> immediately after starting the engine, even when warm. After driving a
> couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in the idling. I tried it
> at some lights yesterday after driving for a bit, immediately after
> restarting it was lumpy again.
>
> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again). No idea
> of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the speedo motor died a
> while back and I swapped motors to get a working speedo - cheaper than
> £400 for a new instrument cluster from Peugeot).
>
>>
>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness / stiffness.
>>
>> Tim.
>
> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it?
>
> D
Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking. I
read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing up at
88k miles)
Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can be
cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from Pug.
Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two coils
can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a valve
between fully closed and fully open.
hth
Bob >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 82
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bob Minchin wrote:
> David Hearn wrote:
>> Tim.. wrote:
>>> "David Hearn" <dave.DeleteThis@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in
>>>> today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's
>>>> going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>>
>>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had
>>>> it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine wise
>>>> it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area (front
>>>> left side) pretty much the entire time we've had it (6 years) - but
>>>> not enough to cause us to have to top up much between oil changes,
>>>> some tapping from the cam shaft (again, pretty much the whole
>>>> time). No issues though with the running of the engine, starts
>>>> immediately first time every time. Coolant has been okay-ish. No
>>>> noticable mayo - but the coolant has always looked a bit rusty
>>>> between changes, and is probably due for a change.
>>>>
>>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per year.
>>>> Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a year or
>>>> so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) - but
>>>> haven't checked this time.
>>>>
>>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its
>>>> own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when,
>>>> after half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading only
>>>> a couple of miles.
>>>>
>>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we
>>>> pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears, it
>>>> seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then
>>>> though, we've done about 15 miles without it resetting, even though
>>>> we've had to stop the engine for a bit, and when re-started it was
>>>> lumpy again. Might be a red-herring - but might be helpful. I'm
>>>> wondering if it's an electrical problem (coil pack?) causing the
>>>> trip counter to reset - which may also affect the ignition - but
>>>> I've got no real idea of *why* it might cause it! Just a wild
>>>> hypothesis.
>>>>
>>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having the
>>> injector cleaned / replaced.
>>
>> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms appear
>> immediately after starting the engine, even when warm. After driving
>> a couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in the idling. I
>> tried it at some lights yesterday after driving for a bit, immediately
>> after restarting it was lumpy again.
>>
>> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
>> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
>> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again). No
>> idea of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the speedo motor
>> died a while back and I swapped motors to get a working speedo -
>> cheaper than £400 for a new instrument cluster from Peugeot).
>>
>>>
>>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness / stiffness.
>>>
>>> Tim.
>>
>> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it?
>>
>> D
> Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking. I
> read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing up at
> 88k miles)
> Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
> effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can be
> cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
> New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from Pug.
> Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
> windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two coils
> can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a valve
> between fully closed and fully open.
>
> hth
>
> Bob
Well, I think I've found the stepper motor! After searching on eBay I
came up with a similar picture, but not identical. See
<http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Peugeot-Idle-valve-stepper-motor-A1678-A1459-B32-00_W0QQitemZ330211820370QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
and/or <http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/74/f16c_1.JPG>. I think the
part number is 1920 6W "Regulator MOT" in the parts CD.
The difference is that the black part of the shaft on my one is about
twice the length.
The silver tip will rotate/move back and forth a tiny, tiny amount (more
like play than intentional rotation as it's so tiny). The black bit on
the shaft is a spring loaded collar over the inner shaft which connects
to the silver tip. This black collar rotates fine, although with a
little friction - more akin to the friction due to the end of the spring
than anything else.
Other that that, nothing appears to move. Cannot rotate the tip, and
cannot work out how the collar could drive anything.
My only conclusion is that this actually moves in and out, rather than
rotates. Hence the lack of rotation of the tip, and a spring loaded
collar around the shaft. Unfortunatately, this probably means its worm
driven, and thus cannot be moved manually (I certainly couldn't!) - so
difficult to be able to check whether it's working right.
What would happen if I just wired it back into the car, but didn't mount
it? Should I then expect it to move? What about the fact that there's
a big hole where it used to be? I don't want to spend quite a bit of
money on it if this one is perfectly fine if this one could be tested
somehow.
Thanks
David >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 20
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Hearn wrote:
> Bob Minchin wrote:
>> David Hearn wrote:
>>> Tim.. wrote:
>>>> "David Hearn" <dave.DeleteThis@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in
>>>>> today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's
>>>>> going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had
>>>>> it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine wise
>>>>> it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area (front
>>>>> left side) pretty much the entire time we've had it (6 years) - but
>>>>> not enough to cause us to have to top up much between oil changes,
>>>>> some tapping from the cam shaft (again, pretty much the whole
>>>>> time). No issues though with the running of the engine, starts
>>>>> immediately first time every time. Coolant has been okay-ish. No
>>>>> noticable mayo - but the coolant has always looked a bit rusty
>>>>> between changes, and is probably due for a change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per
>>>>> year. Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a
>>>>> year or so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) -
>>>>> but haven't checked this time.
>>>>>
>>>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its
>>>>> own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when,
>>>>> after half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading only
>>>>> a couple of miles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we
>>>>> pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears, it
>>>>> seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then
>>>>> though, we've done about 15 miles without it resetting, even though
>>>>> we've had to stop the engine for a bit, and when re-started it was
>>>>> lumpy again. Might be a red-herring - but might be helpful. I'm
>>>>> wondering if it's an electrical problem (coil pack?) causing the
>>>>> trip counter to reset - which may also affect the ignition - but
>>>>> I've got no real idea of *why* it might cause it! Just a wild
>>>>> hypothesis.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having
>>>> the injector cleaned / replaced.
>>>
>>> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms appear
>>> immediately after starting the engine, even when warm. After driving
>>> a couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in the idling. I
>>> tried it at some lights yesterday after driving for a bit,
>>> immediately after restarting it was lumpy again.
>>>
>>> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
>>> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
>>> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again). No
>>> idea of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the speedo
>>> motor died a while back and I swapped motors to get a working speedo
>>> - cheaper than £400 for a new instrument cluster from Peugeot).
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness / stiffness.
>>>>
>>>> Tim.
>>>
>>> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it?
>>>
>>> D
>> Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking. I
>> read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing up at
>> 88k miles)
>> Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
>> effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can be
>> cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
>> New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from Pug.
>> Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
>> windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two
>> coils can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a
>> valve between fully closed and fully open.
>>
>> hth
>>
>> Bob
>
> Well, I think I've found the stepper motor! After searching on eBay I
> came up with a similar picture, but not identical. See
> <http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Peugeot-Idle-valve-stepper-motor-A1678-A1459-B32-00_W0QQitemZ330211820370QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
> and/or <http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/74/f16c_1.JPG>. I think the
> part number is 1920 6W "Regulator MOT" in the parts CD.
>
> The difference is that the black part of the shaft on my one is about
> twice the length.
>
> The silver tip will rotate/move back and forth a tiny, tiny amount (more
> like play than intentional rotation as it's so tiny). The black bit on
> the shaft is a spring loaded collar over the inner shaft which connects
> to the silver tip. This black collar rotates fine, although with a
> little friction - more akin to the friction due to the end of the spring
> than anything else.
>
> Other that that, nothing appears to move. Cannot rotate the tip, and
> cannot work out how the collar could drive anything.
>
> My only conclusion is that this actually moves in and out, rather than
> rotates. Hence the lack of rotation of the tip, and a spring loaded
> collar around the shaft. Unfortunatately, this probably means its worm
> driven, and thus cannot be moved manually (I certainly couldn't!) - so
> difficult to be able to check whether it's working right.
>
> What would happen if I just wired it back into the car, but didn't mount
> it? Should I then expect it to move? What about the fact that there's
> a big hole where it used to be? I don't want to spend quite a bit of
> money on it if this one is perfectly fine if this one could be tested
> somehow.
>
> Thanks
>
> David
Your ICV is completely different from mine which is shown here and it
works differently.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/9fingersphotos/IdleControlValve.jpg.
Find something about the same size as the actuator and use that to
control the engine speed manually. If the stepper is working properly,
then you should see it smoothly move from one extreme to the other
depending of whether the idle speed that your are controlling manually
is above or below the set speed.
Make sure the engine is not cold when you do thus and that the aircon is
off and that the throttle is fully closed. I.e. you must be simulating
tickover conditions.
Bob >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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Since: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 82
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bob Minchin wrote:
> David Hearn wrote:
>> Bob Minchin wrote:
>>> David Hearn wrote:
>>>> Tim.. wrote:
>>>>> "David Hearn" <dave RemoveThis @NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in
>>>>>> today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's
>>>>>> going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had
>>>>>> it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine wise
>>>>>> it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area
>>>>>> (front left side) pretty much the entire time we've had it (6
>>>>>> years) - but not enough to cause us to have to top up much between
>>>>>> oil changes, some tapping from the cam shaft (again, pretty much
>>>>>> the whole time). No issues though with the running of the engine,
>>>>>> starts immediately first time every time. Coolant has been
>>>>>> okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the coolant has always looked a
>>>>>> bit rusty between changes, and is probably due for a change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per
>>>>>> year. Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a
>>>>>> year or so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) -
>>>>>> but haven't checked this time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>>>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its
>>>>>> own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when,
>>>>>> after half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading
>>>>>> only a couple of miles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we
>>>>>> pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears,
>>>>>> it seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then
>>>>>> though, we've done about 15 miles without it resetting, even
>>>>>> though we've had to stop the engine for a bit, and when re-started
>>>>>> it was lumpy again. Might be a red-herring - but might be
>>>>>> helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical problem (coil pack?)
>>>>>> causing the trip counter to reset - which may also affect the
>>>>>> ignition - but I've got no real idea of *why* it might cause it!
>>>>>> Just a wild hypothesis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having
>>>>> the injector cleaned / replaced.
>>>>
>>>> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms
>>>> appear immediately after starting the engine, even when warm. After
>>>> driving a couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in the
>>>> idling. I tried it at some lights yesterday after driving for a
>>>> bit, immediately after restarting it was lumpy again.
>>>>
>>>> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
>>>> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
>>>> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again). No
>>>> idea of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the speedo
>>>> motor died a while back and I swapped motors to get a working speedo
>>>> - cheaper than £400 for a new instrument cluster from Peugeot).
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness / stiffness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim.
>>>>
>>>> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it?
>>>>
>>>> D
>>> Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking. I
>>> read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing up
>>> at 88k miles)
>>> Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
>>> effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can be
>>> cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
>>> New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from Pug.
>>> Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
>>> windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two
>>> coils can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a
>>> valve between fully closed and fully open.
>>>
>>> hth
>>>
>>> Bob
>>
>> Well, I think I've found the stepper motor! After searching on eBay I
>> came up with a similar picture, but not identical. See
>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Peugeot-Idle-valve-stepper-motor-A1678-A1459-B32-00_W0QQitemZ330211820370QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
>> and/or <http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/74/f16c_1.JPG>. I think the
>> part number is 1920 6W "Regulator MOT" in the parts CD.
>>
>> The difference is that the black part of the shaft on my one is about
>> twice the length.
>>
>> The silver tip will rotate/move back and forth a tiny, tiny amount
>> (more like play than intentional rotation as it's so tiny). The black
>> bit on the shaft is a spring loaded collar over the inner shaft which
>> connects to the silver tip. This black collar rotates fine, although
>> with a little friction - more akin to the friction due to the end of
>> the spring than anything else.
>>
>> Other that that, nothing appears to move. Cannot rotate the tip, and
>> cannot work out how the collar could drive anything.
>>
>> My only conclusion is that this actually moves in and out, rather than
>> rotates. Hence the lack of rotation of the tip, and a spring loaded
>> collar around the shaft. Unfortunatately, this probably means its
>> worm driven, and thus cannot be moved manually (I certainly couldn't!)
>> - so difficult to be able to check whether it's working right.
>>
>> What would happen if I just wired it back into the car, but didn't
>> mount it? Should I then expect it to move? What about the fact that
>> there's a big hole where it used to be? I don't want to spend quite a
>> bit of money on it if this one is perfectly fine if this one could be
>> tested somehow.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> David
>
> Your ICV is completely different from mine which is shown here and it
> works differently.
> http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/9fingersphotos/IdleControlValve.jpg.
>
>
> Find something about the same size as the actuator and use that to
> control the engine speed manually. If the stepper is working properly,
> then you should see it smoothly move from one extreme to the other
> depending of whether the idle speed that your are controlling manually
> is above or below the set speed.
> Make sure the engine is not cold when you do thus and that the aircon is
> off and that the throttle is fully closed. I.e. you must be simulating
> tickover conditions.
> Bob
Thanks for the advice - incidentally, any idea whether it's worth
getting one from eBay? This one has the exact part number of the one
I've removed:
<http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230225592876>. At
£25 (or maybe a lower offer) + delivery it's probably under 1/2 the
price they seem to be at Euro Car Parts (not found exact one there, but
looking at prices of stepper motors for same engine fitted to other
cars), and apparently Peugeot would be about £110.
So - would you trust getting a part like this from eBay? Or is it
better to pay the £60+ from a factors, or £100+ from the dealer?
Thanks
D >> Stay informed about: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting |
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External
Since: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 222
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 20
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Pug 306 - Lumpy idling when started + trip counter resetting Get Alert [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Hearn wrote:
> Bob Minchin wrote:
>> David Hearn wrote:
>>> Bob Minchin wrote:
>>>> David Hearn wrote:
>>>>> Tim.. wrote:
>>>>>> "David Hearn" <dave DeleteThis @NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:6209p2F20rovqU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>>> Our Peugeot 306 1.4l petrol, 1998 version has just started (as in
>>>>>>> today) idling quite lumpy once started - such that you feel it's
>>>>>>> going to stall (or at least, can imagine that it might).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's just passed 120,000, so is getting longer in the tooth. Had
>>>>>>> it's MOT done last October and passed emmisions fine. Engine
>>>>>>> wise it's been okay. Slight oil leakage from the head gasket area
>>>>>>> (front left side) pretty much the entire time we've had it (6
>>>>>>> years) - but not enough to cause us to have to top up much
>>>>>>> between oil changes, some tapping from the cam shaft (again,
>>>>>>> pretty much the whole time). No issues though with the running
>>>>>>> of the engine, starts immediately first time every time. Coolant
>>>>>>> has been okay-ish. No noticable mayo - but the coolant has
>>>>>>> always looked a bit rusty between changes, and is probably due
>>>>>>> for a change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plugs were changed last year, and we do about 10,000 miles per
>>>>>>> year. Oil change done about 6k miles ago. Earth strap replaced a
>>>>>>> year or so ago when it failed (causing weird electrical issues) -
>>>>>>> but haven't checked this time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One other thing, which I wonder may be related, is that recently
>>>>>>> (last couple of weeks) the trip counter has been resetting on its
>>>>>>> own. I reset it each time I fill the tank and so noticed when,
>>>>>>> after half a tank of fuel has been used, it's suddenly reading
>>>>>>> only a couple of miles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just now, when the car was very lumpy, it seemed that whenever we
>>>>>>> pulled away from a junction, particuarly when changing up gears,
>>>>>>> it seemed to reset - we saw this happen a few times. Since then
>>>>>>> though, we've done about 15 miles without it resetting, even
>>>>>>> though we've had to stop the engine for a bit, and when
>>>>>>> re-started it was lumpy again. Might be a red-herring - but
>>>>>>> might be helpful. I'm wondering if it's an electrical problem
>>>>>>> (coil pack?) causing the trip counter to reset - which may also
>>>>>>> affect the ignition - but I've got no real idea of *why* it might
>>>>>>> cause it! Just a wild hypothesis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no engine lights or anything else showing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a single pointer n'est pas? If so, its waaaay past having
>>>>>> the injector cleaned / replaced.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've no idea whether it's single or multi point. The symptoms
>>>>> appear immediately after starting the engine, even when warm.
>>>>> After driving a couple of miles I don't notice any stuttering in
>>>>> the idling. I tried it at some lights yesterday after driving for
>>>>> a bit, immediately after restarting it was lumpy again.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also noticed yesterday that it has started idling quite fast on
>>>>> occasions - not all the time and went for a bit after stopping and
>>>>> restarting the engine (but got the stuttering/lumpyness again). No
>>>>> idea of the actual RPM as my rev counter has no dial (the speedo
>>>>> motor died a while back and I swapped motors to get a working
>>>>> speedo - cheaper than £400 for a new instrument cluster from Peugeot).
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Otherwise check the stepper motor and linkage for dryness /
>>>>>> stiffness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where's the stepper motor, and how would I check it?
>>>>>
>>>>> D
>>>> Highly likely to be the Idle control valve/stepper motor sticking. I
>>>> read of these only having 50k miles life. (my 405 ICV is playing up
>>>> at 88k miles)
>>>> Look for an electrically controlled valve with hoses in and out
>>>> effectively bypassing the throttle butterfly. Sometimes these can
>>>> be cleaned with carb cleaner and last a little longer.
>>>> New ones (for my 405) are about £50 from GSF and double that from Pug.
>>>> Not all ICVs are true stepper motors. Mine is a DC motor with two
>>>> windings (three terminals) which by varying the current in the two
>>>> coils can turn the armature though 90 degrees, enough to operate a
>>>> valve between fully closed and fully open.
>>>>
>>>> hth
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Well, I think I've found the stepper motor! After searching on eBay
>>> I came up with a similar picture, but not identical. See
>>> <http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Peugeot-Idle-valve-stepper-motor-A1678-A1459-B32-00_W0QQitemZ330211820370QQihZ014QQcategoryZ10406QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem>
>>> and/or <http://i7.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a3/74/f16c_1.JPG>. I think
>>> the part number is 1920 6W "Regulator MOT" in the parts CD.
>>>
>>> The difference is that the black part of the shaft on my one is about
>>> twice the length.
>>>
>>> The silver tip will rotate/move back and forth a tiny, tiny amount
>>> (more like play than intentional rotation as it's so tiny). The
>>> black bit on the shaft is a spring loaded collar over the inner shaft
>>> which connects to the silver tip. This black collar rotates fine,
>>> although with a little friction - more akin to the friction due to
>>> the end of the spring than anything else.
>>>
>>> Other that that, nothing appears to move. Cannot rotate the tip, and
>>> cannot work out how the collar could drive anything.
>>>
>>> My only conclusion is that this actually moves in and out, rather
>>> than rotates. Hence the lack of rotation of the tip, and a spring
>>> loaded collar around the shaft. Unfortunatately, this probably means
>>> its worm driven, and thus cannot be moved manually (I certainly
>>> couldn't!) - so difficult to be able to check whether it's working
>>> right.
>>>
>>> What would happen if I just wired it back into the car, but didn't
>>> mount it? Should I then expect it to move? What about the fact that
>>> there's a big hole where it used to be? I don't want to spend quite
>>> a bit of money on it if this one is perfectly fine if this one could
>>> be tested somehow.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> Your ICV is completely different from mine which is shown here and it
>> works differently.
>> http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/9fingersphotos/IdleControlValve.jpg.
>>
>>
>> Find something about the same size as the actuator and use that to
>> control the engine speed manually. If the stepper is working properly,
>> then you should see it smoothly move from one extreme to the other
>> depending of whether the idle speed that your are controlling manually
>> is above or below the set speed.
>> Make sure the engine is not cold when you do thus and that the aircon
>> is off and that the throttle is fully closed. I.e. you must be
>> simulating tickover conditions.
>> Bob
>
> Thanks for the advice - incidentally, any idea whether it's worth
> getting one from eBay? This one has the exact part number of the one
> I've removed:
> <http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230225592876>. At
> £25 (or maybe a lower offer) + delivery it's probably under 1/2 the
> price they seem to be at Euro Car Parts (not found exact one there, but
> looking at prices of stepper motors for same engine fitted to other
> cars), and apparently Peugeot would be about £110.
>
> So - would you trust getting a part like this from eBay? Or is it
> better to pay the £60+ from a factors, or £100+ from the dealer?
>
> Thanks
>
> D
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