Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord

On Mar 5, 4:17 pm, highkm wrote:
> On Mar 4, 11:10 am, "Elle" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Just one bit of evidence to support the contention that
> > secondary O2 sensors may indeed be used for fine tuning of
> > fuel trim:
>
> > "Engines use either one or two oxygen sensors for fuel
> > control. Many later model 'V' engines use one sensor to
> > control each bank independently. This allows for correcting
> > any bank-to-bank air/fuel deviations or imbalances.
> > Additional oxygen sensors can be located downstream of the
> > catalyst. These downstream sensors are used for catalyst
> > system on-board diagnostics and may often be used for
> > 'fine-tuning' fuel trim."
>
> >http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/ericfischer/Ford/ford_doc.pdf
>
> > More dialogue and documentation on this from Stephen H and
> > others in 2005:http://amermlrs.com/cars-367.html
>
> > "Woody" wrote
>
> > > The ECM cannot force the secondary O2 sensor to do
> > > anything. It's output is only used to compare with the
> > > primary sensor to check CAT efficiency which will generate
> > > the P0420 code. The primary O2 sensor is used to control
> > > fuel trim.
>
> Very good discussions. Appreciate the info. I'll check the
> wiring..corrosion. If nothing shows up, I'll replace it. Thx.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well the wiring checked out, so I got a new o2 sensor. I tried to
unscrew the old one. This was wishful thinking. Even though I had a
long 22 wrench this sucker is holding on to the CC with more than
1000lb pressure. I am planning to use a torch on the outside part of
the o2 sensor thread. The theory is that the cat converter thread will
expand, and then with some hammering of the sensor to loosen its grip,
the wrench will be adequate to unscrew it. Has anyone done something
like this with success?
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

On Mar 17, 2:06 pm, E Meyer wrote:
> On 3/17/08 11:51 AM, in article
> eb56293a-90fb-4256-84f7-5596f4a35... DeleteThis @p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com, "highkm"
>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > On Mar 5, 4:17 pm, highkm wrote:
> >> On Mar 4, 11:10 am, "Elle" wrote:
>
> >>> Just one bit of evidence to support the contention that
> >>> secondary O2 sensors may indeed be used for fine tuning of
> >>> fuel trim:
>
> >>> "Engines use either one or two oxygen sensors for fuel
> >>> control. Many later model 'V' engines use one sensor to
> >>> control each bank independently. This allows for correcting
> >>> any bank-to-bank air/fuel deviations or imbalances.
> >>> Additional oxygen sensors can be located downstream of the
> >>> catalyst. These downstream sensors are used for catalyst
> >>> system on-board diagnostics and may often be used for
> >>> 'fine-tuning' fuel trim."
>
> >>>http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/ericfischer/Ford/ford_doc.pdf
>
> >>> More dialogue and documentation on this from Stephen H and
> >>> others in 2005:http://amermlrs.com/cars-367.html
>
> >>> "Woody" wrote
>
> >>>> The ECM cannot force the secondary O2 sensor to do
> >>>> anything. It's output is only used to compare with the
> >>>> primary sensor to check CAT efficiency which will generate
> >>>> the P0420 code. The primary O2 sensor is used to control
> >>>> fuel trim.
>
> >> Very good discussions. Appreciate the info. I'll check the
> >> wiring..corrosion. If nothing shows up, I'll replace it. Thx.- Hide quoted
> >> text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Well the wiring checked out, so I got a new o2 sensor. I tried to
> > unscrew the old one. This was wishful thinking. Even though I had a
> > long 22 wrench this sucker is holding on to the CC with more than
> > 1000lb pressure. I am planning to use a torch on the outside part of
> > the o2 sensor thread. The theory is that the cat converter thread will
> > expand, and then with some hammering of the sensor to loosen its grip,
> > the wrench will be adequate to unscrew it. Has anyone done something
> > like this with success?
>
> I'm curious -- how were you able to apply 1000 lb pressure?
>
> I've never needed anything more than my trusty 4 ft piece of gas pipe on the
> end of the breaker bar to remove these things (also works on Honda crank
> bolts).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I used a pulley that I use to pull a downed Moose when I go hunting.
It has a scale on it. I hooked the end of the wrench, wrapped the rope
around the fixed pipe in the garage and turned on the motor that wraps
the rope. I stopped when the motor registered about 125lb. It is
eactly 1/8 of the pressure at the hook. The wrench is about a foot
(that's the radius R). Torque = R x F.
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

That would be about 125 ft-lbs., then.

I could see an O2 sensor being somewhat tighter than this,
due to heat cycling and exhaust gas chemistry effects.

"highkm" wrote
I used a pulley that I use to pull a downed Moose when I go
hunting.
It has a scale on it. I hooked the end of the wrench,
wrapped the rope
around the fixed pipe in the garage and turned on the motor
that wraps
the rope. I stopped when the motor registered about 125lb.
It is
eactly 1/8 of the pressure at the hook. The wrench is about
a foot
(that's the radius R). Torque = R x F.
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

On Mar 17, 4:36 pm, "Elle" wrote:
> That would be about 125 ft-lbs., then.
>
> I could see an O2 sensor being somewhat tighter than this,
> due to heat cycling and exhaust gas chemistry effects.
>
> "highkm" wrote
> I used a pulley that I use to pull a downed Moose when I go
> hunting.
> It has a scale on it. I hooked the end of the wrench,
> wrapped the rope
> around the fixed pipe in the garage and turned on the motor
> that wraps
> the rope. I stopped when the motor registered about 125lb.
> It is
> eactly 1/8 of the pressure at the hook. The wrench is about
> a foot
> (that's the radius R). Torque = R x F.

More like 125 time 8.
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

Read-o on my part then.

Still, 1000 ft-lbs fails the common sense test.

Either way, try the PB Blaster.

"highkm" wrote
On Mar 17, 4:36 pm, "Elle"
wrote:
> That would be about 125 ft-lbs., then.
>
> I could see an O2 sensor being somewhat tighter than this,
> due to heat cycling and exhaust gas chemistry effects.
>
> "highkm" wrote
> I used a pulley that I use to pull a downed Moose when I
> go
> hunting.
> It has a scale on it. I hooked the end of the wrench,
> wrapped the rope
> around the fixed pipe in the garage and turned on the
> motor
> that wraps
> the rope. I stopped when the motor registered about 125lb.
> It is
> eactly 1/8 of the pressure at the hook. The wrench is
> about
> a foot
> (that's the radius R). Torque = R x F.

More like 125 time 8.
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

On 3/17/08 11:51 AM, in article
eb56293a-90fb-4256-84f7-5596f4a355e2 RemoveThis @p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com, "highkm"
wrote:

> On Mar 5, 4:17 pm, highkm wrote:
>> On Mar 4, 11:10 am, "Elle" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Just one bit of evidence to support the contention that
>>> secondary O2 sensors may indeed be used for fine tuning of
>>> fuel trim:
>>
>>> "Engines use either one or two oxygen sensors for fuel
>>> control. Many later model 'V' engines use one sensor to
>>> control each bank independently. This allows for correcting
>>> any bank-to-bank air/fuel deviations or imbalances.
>>> Additional oxygen sensors can be located downstream of the
>>> catalyst. These downstream sensors are used for catalyst
>>> system on-board diagnostics and may often be used for
>>> 'fine-tuning' fuel trim."
>>
>>> http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/ericfischer/Ford/ford_doc.pdf
>>
>>> More dialogue and documentation on this from Stephen H and
>>> others in 2005:http://amermlrs.com/cars-367.html
>>
>>> "Woody" wrote
>>
>>>> The ECM cannot force the secondary O2 sensor to do
>>>> anything. It's output is only used to compare with the
>>>> primary sensor to check CAT efficiency which will generate
>>>> the P0420 code. The primary O2 sensor is used to control
>>>> fuel trim.
>>
>> Very good discussions. Appreciate the info. I'll check the
>> wiring..corrosion. If nothing shows up, I'll replace it. Thx.- Hide quoted
>> text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Well the wiring checked out, so I got a new o2 sensor. I tried to
> unscrew the old one. This was wishful thinking. Even though I had a
> long 22 wrench this sucker is holding on to the CC with more than
> 1000lb pressure. I am planning to use a torch on the outside part of
> the o2 sensor thread. The theory is that the cat converter thread will
> expand, and then with some hammering of the sensor to loosen its grip,
> the wrench will be adequate to unscrew it. Has anyone done something
> like this with success?


I'm curious -- how were you able to apply 1000 lb pressure?

I've never needed anything more than my trusty 4 ft piece of gas pipe on the
end of the breaker bar to remove these things (also works on Honda crank
bolts).
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

"Elle" wrote in


> Read-o on my part then.
>
> Still, 1000 ft-lbs fails the common sense test.
>
> Either way, try the PB Blaster.
>
> "highkm" wrote
> On Mar 17, 4:36 pm, "Elle"
> wrote:
>> That would be about 125 ft-lbs., then.
>>
>> I could see an O2 sensor being somewhat tighter than this,
>> due to heat cycling and exhaust gas chemistry effects.
>>
>> "highkm" wrote
>> I used a pulley that I use to pull a downed Moose when I
>> go
>> hunting.
>> It has a scale on it. I hooked the end of the wrench,
>> wrapped the rope
>> around the fixed pipe in the garage and turned on the
>> motor
>> that wraps
>> the rope. I stopped when the motor registered about 125lb.
>> It is
>> eactly 1/8 of the pressure at the hook. The wrench is
>> about
>> a foot
>> (that's the radius R). Torque = R x F.
>
> More like 125 time 8.
>
>

his pulley -system- must have an 8x multiplication.
IE;not just a single pulley that would have no multiplication.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

highkm wrote in


> On Mar 5, 4:17 pm, highkm wrote:
>> On Mar 4, 11:10 am, "Elle" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Just one bit of evidence to support the contention that
>> > secondary O2 sensors may indeed be used for fine tuning of
>> > fuel trim:
>>
>> > "Engines use either one or two oxygen sensors for fuel
>> > control. Many later model 'V' engines use one sensor to
>> > control each bank independently. This allows for correcting
>> > any bank-to-bank air/fuel deviations or imbalances.
>> > Additional oxygen sensors can be located downstream of the
>> > catalyst. These downstream sensors are used for catalyst
>> > system on-board diagnostics and may often be used for
>> > 'fine-tuning' fuel trim."
>>
>> >http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/ericfischer/Ford/ford_doc.pdf
>>
>> > More dialogue and documentation on this from Stephen H and
>> > others in 2005:http://amermlrs.com/cars-367.html
>>
>> > "Woody" wrote
>>
>> > > The ECM cannot force the secondary O2 sensor to do
>> > > anything. It's output is only used to compare with the
>> > > primary sensor to check CAT efficiency which will generate
>> > > the P0420 code. The primary O2 sensor is used to control
>> > > fuel trim.
>>
>> Very good discussions. Appreciate the info. I'll check the
>> wiring..corrosion. If nothing shows up, I'll replace it. Thx.- Hide
>> quoted
> text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Well the wiring checked out, so I got a new o2 sensor. I tried to
> unscrew the old one. This was wishful thinking. Even though I had a
> long 22 wrench this sucker is holding on to the CC with more than
> 1000lb pressure. I am planning to use a torch on the outside part of
> the o2 sensor thread. The theory is that the cat converter thread will
> expand, and then with some hammering of the sensor to loosen its grip,
> the wrench will be adequate to unscrew it. Has anyone done something
> like this with success?



Here's a trick that's worked for me in the past (requires the sensor to
be in a suitably accessible location):
1) Raise car so you have room to access the sensor
2) Apply socket, ratchet and cheater bar to the sensor (snip wire so you
can use regular socket, not O2 sensor socket)
3) Place jack under cheater bar end and use jack to load up the assembly
good and hard, with socket turning in the LOOSEN direction
4) Whack exhaust pipe with at least a 2lb hammer -- hard -- immediately
adjacent to sensor.
5) Sensor should crack loose with a bang (keep out of the way of things
that may suddenly move in unexpected ways!)
6) If not, repeat from #4 as necessary.

Another trick that can work is to TIGHTEN the senor first, THEN try to
loosen it. If you can get a fastener to budge a bit in the tighten
direction, that increases the chance of getting it to move in the other
one.

And if you end up stiripping the hole, no worries. A spark plug tap will
fix that with ease.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord 

On Mar 17, 7:40 pm, Tegger wrote:
> highkm wrote innews:eb56293a-90fb-4256-84f7-5596f4a355e2@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 4:17 pm, highkm wrote:
> >> On Mar 4, 11:10 am, "Elle" wrote:
>
> >> > Just one bit of evidence to support the contention that
> >> > secondary O2 sensors may indeed be used for fine tuning of
> >> > fuel trim:
>
> >> > "Engines use either one or two oxygen sensors for fuel
> >> > control. Many later model 'V' engines use one sensor to
> >> > control each bank independently. This allows for correcting
> >> > any bank-to-bank air/fuel deviations or imbalances.
> >> > Additional oxygen sensors can be located downstream of the
> >> > catalyst. These downstream sensors are used for catalyst
> >> > system on-board diagnostics and may often be used for
> >> > 'fine-tuning' fuel trim."
>
> >> >http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/ericfischer/Ford/ford_doc.pdf
>
> >> > More dialogue and documentation on this from Stephen H and
> >> > others in 2005:http://amermlrs.com/cars-367.html
>
> >> > "Woody" wrote
>
> >> > > The ECM cannot force the secondary O2 sensor to do
> >> > > anything. It's output is only used to compare with the
> >> > > primary sensor to check CAT efficiency which will generate
> >> > > the P0420 code. The primary O2 sensor is used to control
> >> > > fuel trim.
>
> >> Very good discussions. Appreciate the info. I'll check the
> >> wiring..corrosion. If nothing shows up, I'll replace it. Thx.- Hide
> >> quoted
> >  text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Well the wiring checked out, so I got a new o2 sensor. I tried to
> > unscrew the old one. This was wishful thinking. Even though I had a
> > long 22 wrench this sucker is holding on to the CC with more than
> > 1000lb pressure. I am planning to use a torch on the outside part of
> > the o2 sensor thread. The theory is that the cat converter thread will
> > expand, and then with some hammering of the sensor to loosen its grip,
> > the wrench will be adequate to unscrew it. Has anyone done something
> > like this with success?
>
> Here's a trick that's worked for me in the past (requires the sensor to
> be in a suitably accessible location):
> 1) Raise car so you have room to access the sensor
> 2) Apply socket, ratchet and cheater bar to the sensor (snip wire so you
> can use regular socket, not O2 sensor socket)
> 3) Place jack under cheater bar end and use jack to load up the assembly
> good and hard, with socket turning in the LOOSEN direction
> 4) Whack exhaust pipe with at least a 2lb hammer -- hard -- immediately
> adjacent to sensor.
> 5) Sensor should crack loose with a bang (keep out of the way of things
> that may suddenly move in unexpected ways!)
> 6) If not, repeat from #4 as necessary.
>
> Another trick that can work is to TIGHTEN the senor first, THEN try to
> loosen it. If you can get a fastener to budge a bit in the tighten
> direction, that increases the chance of getting it to move in the other
> one.
>
> And if you end up stiripping the hole, no worries. A spark plug tap will
> fix that with ease.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sounds like a good idea. I'll try it. Thx.
 >> Stay informed about: Oxygen Sensor on 2003 Accord