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PatAL7L

External


Since: Dec 17, 2007
Posts: 7



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:09 pm
Post subject: Mystery car
Archived from groups: rec>autos>makers>vw>watercooled (more info?)

We've been working for a couple of months off and on on a 1987 Jetta
GL 1.8 8-valve gas that refuses to run. I inherited in from a guy who
told me he drove it for a while and then developed a head gasket leak,
so he took the head off and had it surfaced, reinstalled it, and was
never able to get the car started again.

I thought it was going to be a simple problem, because the guy had
really screwed up the engine timing. The cam gear has a dot on both
sides, and he had lined up the outside dot with the front of the valve
cover, and then had changed all the plug wires around to try to
correct for being 180 degrees out. So, the first order of business was
to line everything up right and reinstall the timing belt. The two
marks on the harmonic balancer and the intermediate sprocket that
drives the distributor are now correctly lined up with one another,
and the valves are set to TDC on number 1 with the inside alignment
dot (the one on the tooth, not the one on the valley) lined up with
the top corner of the valve cover. The distributor is now pointing to
the engine block, and the plugs are correctly lined up 1-3-4-2.

Along the way, we discovered that the fuel pump relay was shot and the
fuel filter was clogged, so we jumpered around the relay, and replaced
the fuel filter. We're now getting a good conical spray of gasoline
from all four injectors.

It still wouldn't start, so we tested compression and discovered that
the #1 cylinder was down to 50 pounds, and #4 was sitting at 75
pounds. We took the pistons out, found all the top rings stuck and all
the rings on #1 an #4 stuck. We cleaned everything up, re-ringed
them, cleaned up the badly carboned-up cylinders, and reinstalled the
pistons with new con rod bearings. While the top was off the engine, I
replaced the badly shot o-rings and shrouds on the injectors and put
in new plugs, properly gapped.

At 11 p.m. last Friday night, after a long evening of putting
everything back together, we attempted to start the car. We filled it
with oil and coolant, hooked up the battery, got in, and twisted the
key. Exactly the same result as we had before. It cranks perfectly,
starts backfiring as soon as there's enough gas to do so, and
absolutely refuses to run.

With all the work we've done on the engine, I'm convinced that's not
the problem any more, but that it's gotta be something hanging off the
engine. So, what? Hall sender? Computer? I don't know what to try
next, although pushing it off a cliff is beginning to look pretty
good.

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tacurong

External


Since: Sep 10, 2006
Posts: 11



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Mystery car [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

You are close with the timing . you must use the dot on the inside of the
gear on the cam shaft. had a buddy with a 94 golf with the same
issue with the timing after 5 minutes of taking the cam belt off and re
set the timing it ran good ....good luck


"PatAL7L" wrote in message

> We've been working for a couple of months off and on on a 1987 Jetta
> GL 1.8 8-valve gas that refuses to run. I inherited in from a guy who
> told me he drove it for a while and then developed a head gasket leak,
> so he took the head off and had it surfaced, reinstalled it, and was
> never able to get the car started again.
>
> I thought it was going to be a simple problem, because the guy had
> really screwed up the engine timing. The cam gear has a dot on both
> sides, and he had lined up the outside dot with the front of the valve
> cover, and then had changed all the plug wires around to try to
> correct for being 180 degrees out. So, the first order of business was
> to line everything up right and reinstall the timing belt. The two
> marks on the harmonic balancer and the intermediate sprocket that
> drives the distributor are now correctly lined up with one another,
> and the valves are set to TDC on number 1 with the inside alignment
> dot (the one on the tooth, not the one on the valley) lined up with
> the top corner of the valve cover. The distributor is now pointing to
> the engine block, and the plugs are correctly lined up 1-3-4-2.
>
> Along the way, we discovered that the fuel pump relay was shot and the
> fuel filter was clogged, so we jumpered around the relay, and replaced
> the fuel filter. We're now getting a good conical spray of gasoline
> from all four injectors.
>
> It still wouldn't start, so we tested compression and discovered that
> the #1 cylinder was down to 50 pounds, and #4 was sitting at 75
> pounds. We took the pistons out, found all the top rings stuck and all
> the rings on #1 an #4 stuck. We cleaned everything up, re-ringed
> them, cleaned up the badly carboned-up cylinders, and reinstalled the
> pistons with new con rod bearings. While the top was off the engine, I
> replaced the badly shot o-rings and shrouds on the injectors and put
> in new plugs, properly gapped.
>
> At 11 p.m. last Friday night, after a long evening of putting
> everything back together, we attempted to start the car. We filled it
> with oil and coolant, hooked up the battery, got in, and twisted the
> key. Exactly the same result as we had before. It cranks perfectly,
> starts backfiring as soon as there's enough gas to do so, and
> absolutely refuses to run.
>
> With all the work we've done on the engine, I'm convinced that's not
> the problem any more, but that it's gotta be something hanging off the
> engine. So, what? Hall sender? Computer? I don't know what to try
> next, although pushing it off a cliff is beginning to look pretty
> good.

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SFC

External


Since: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 59



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Mystery car [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Seems a bad ignition. Check if the hall sensor is pulsing +12v - 0v
+12v..while cranking.
You can also use a timing light to see if you've a spark on each cyl. Did
you set the plugs wires in the right order? #1 is on the distrb. side.

SFC

"tacurong" schreef in bericht

> You are close with the timing . you must use the dot on the inside of the
> gear on the cam shaft. had a buddy with a 94 golf with the same
> issue with the timing after 5 minutes of taking the cam belt off and re
> set the timing it ran good ....good luck
>
>
> "PatAL7L" wrote in message
>
>> We've been working for a couple of months off and on on a 1987 Jetta
>> GL 1.8 8-valve gas that refuses to run. I inherited in from a guy who
>> told me he drove it for a while and then developed a head gasket leak,
>> so he took the head off and had it surfaced, reinstalled it, and was
>> never able to get the car started again.
>>
>> I thought it was going to be a simple problem, because the guy had
>> really screwed up the engine timing. The cam gear has a dot on both
>> sides, and he had lined up the outside dot with the front of the valve
>> cover, and then had changed all the plug wires around to try to
>> correct for being 180 degrees out. So, the first order of business was
>> to line everything up right and reinstall the timing belt. The two
>> marks on the harmonic balancer and the intermediate sprocket that
>> drives the distributor are now correctly lined up with one another,
>> and the valves are set to TDC on number 1 with the inside alignment
>> dot (the one on the tooth, not the one on the valley) lined up with
>> the top corner of the valve cover. The distributor is now pointing to
>> the engine block, and the plugs are correctly lined up 1-3-4-2.
>>
>> Along the way, we discovered that the fuel pump relay was shot and the
>> fuel filter was clogged, so we jumpered around the relay, and replaced
>> the fuel filter. We're now getting a good conical spray of gasoline
>> from all four injectors.
>>
>> It still wouldn't start, so we tested compression and discovered that
>> the #1 cylinder was down to 50 pounds, and #4 was sitting at 75
>> pounds. We took the pistons out, found all the top rings stuck and all
>> the rings on #1 an #4 stuck. We cleaned everything up, re-ringed
>> them, cleaned up the badly carboned-up cylinders, and reinstalled the
>> pistons with new con rod bearings. While the top was off the engine, I
>> replaced the badly shot o-rings and shrouds on the injectors and put
>> in new plugs, properly gapped.
>>
>> At 11 p.m. last Friday night, after a long evening of putting
>> everything back together, we attempted to start the car. We filled it
>> with oil and coolant, hooked up the battery, got in, and twisted the
>> key. Exactly the same result as we had before. It cranks perfectly,
>> starts backfiring as soon as there's enough gas to do so, and
>> absolutely refuses to run.
>>
>> With all the work we've done on the engine, I'm convinced that's not
>> the problem any more, but that it's gotta be something hanging off the
>> engine. So, what? Hall sender? Computer? I don't know what to try
>> next, although pushing it off a cliff is beginning to look pretty
>> good.
>
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Dioclese

External


Since: Nov 01, 2007
Posts: 56



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Mystery car [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"PatAL7L" wrote in message

> We've been working for a couple of months off and on on a 1987 Jetta
> GL 1.8 8-valve gas that refuses to run. I inherited in from a guy who
> told me he drove it for a while and then developed a head gasket leak,
> so he took the head off and had it surfaced, reinstalled it, and was
> never able to get the car started again.
>
> I thought it was going to be a simple problem, because the guy had
> really screwed up the engine timing. The cam gear has a dot on both
> sides, and he had lined up the outside dot with the front of the valve
> cover, and then had changed all the plug wires around to try to
> correct for being 180 degrees out. So, the first order of business was
> to line everything up right and reinstall the timing belt. The two
> marks on the harmonic balancer and the intermediate sprocket that
> drives the distributor are now correctly lined up with one another,
> and the valves are set to TDC on number 1 with the inside alignment
> dot (the one on the tooth, not the one on the valley) lined up with
> the top corner of the valve cover. The distributor is now pointing to
> the engine block, and the plugs are correctly lined up 1-3-4-2.
>
> Along the way, we discovered that the fuel pump relay was shot and the
> fuel filter was clogged, so we jumpered around the relay, and replaced
> the fuel filter. We're now getting a good conical spray of gasoline
> from all four injectors.
>
> It still wouldn't start, so we tested compression and discovered that
> the #1 cylinder was down to 50 pounds, and #4 was sitting at 75
> pounds. We took the pistons out, found all the top rings stuck and all
> the rings on #1 an #4 stuck. We cleaned everything up, re-ringed
> them, cleaned up the badly carboned-up cylinders, and reinstalled the
> pistons with new con rod bearings. While the top was off the engine, I
> replaced the badly shot o-rings and shrouds on the injectors and put
> in new plugs, properly gapped.
>
> At 11 p.m. last Friday night, after a long evening of putting
> everything back together, we attempted to start the car. We filled it
> with oil and coolant, hooked up the battery, got in, and twisted the
> key. Exactly the same result as we had before. It cranks perfectly,
> starts backfiring as soon as there's enough gas to do so, and
> absolutely refuses to run.
>
> With all the work we've done on the engine, I'm convinced that's not
> the problem any more, but that it's gotta be something hanging off the
> engine. So, what? Hall sender? Computer? I don't know what to try
> next, although pushing it off a cliff is beginning to look pretty
> good.

The early "boxes" for controlling fuel delivery couldn't actually be termed
as a computer. They were simple bridge networks. Hall sendng unit either
works or doesn't, no inbetween.

Ignition timing, or mechanical timing can both produce backfiring.

Any vehicle that has stood unused for quite some time stands a problem of
rust intrusion from the tank. A closed fuel system in particular, meaning
the gas is returned to the tank if not all used.
--
Dave

Parkinson's disease, not easy to define.
Much less cure.
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racertod

External


Since: Dec 27, 2007
Posts: 8



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Mystery car [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

I noticed this statement:
>The two marks on the harmonic balancer and the intermediate sprocket that
> drives the distributor are now correctly lined up with one another,
> and the valves are set to TDC on number 1 with the inside alignment
> dot (the one on the tooth, not the one on the valley) lined up with
> the top corner of the valve cover. The distributor is now pointing to
> the engine block, and the plugs are correctly lined up 1-3-4-2.

The distributor body has a mark on it that shows where the
terminal for plug #1 will be when the cap is installed. The rotor
should be pointing to that mark. If it is, the ignition timing will
be right around TDC, which is close enough for the engine to fire.
It isn't critical for the mark on the intermediate to be lined
up with the mark on the crank pulley/harmonic balancer. It can be bit
either way. What determines if the timing is close is the relative
position of the rotor and the mark on the distributor body.
You could, in fact, have the intermediate shaft in any
position - as long at the rotor lines up with the mark on the
distributor body your timing will be near TDC.

Todd
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dave AKA vwdoc1

External


Since: Jan 19, 2008
Posts: 153



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Mystery car [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

and check #1 piston to see if it is at TDC by removing the spark plug.
Using a straw move the crank one way and then the other to make sure that
the straw is at its highest point.

wrote in message

>I noticed this statement:
>>The two marks on the harmonic balancer and the intermediate sprocket that
>> drives the distributor are now correctly lined up with one another,
>> and the valves are set to TDC on number 1 with the inside alignment
>> dot (the one on the tooth, not the one on the valley) lined up with
>> the top corner of the valve cover. The distributor is now pointing to
>> the engine block, and the plugs are correctly lined up 1-3-4-2.
>
> The distributor body has a mark on it that shows where the
> terminal for plug #1 will be when the cap is installed. The rotor
> should be pointing to that mark. If it is, the ignition timing will
> be right around TDC, which is close enough for the engine to fire.
> It isn't critical for the mark on the intermediate to be lined
> up with the mark on the crank pulley/harmonic balancer. It can be bit
> either way. What determines if the timing is close is the relative
> position of the rotor and the mark on the distributor body.
> You could, in fact, have the intermediate shaft in any
> position - as long at the rotor lines up with the mark on the
> distributor body your timing will be near TDC.
>
> Todd
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NiK

External


Since: May 13, 2008
Posts: 1



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Mystery car [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Don't forget the cam gear itself may not be timed to the cam properly.
Ensure the cam lobes on #1 coincide with your crank timing. If it backfires,
you have ignition. Sounds like valve timing is out.
"PatAL7L" wrote in message

> We've been working for a couple of months off and on on a 1987 Jetta
> GL 1.8 8-valve gas that refuses to run. I inherited in from a guy who
> told me he drove it for a while and then developed a head gasket leak,
> so he took the head off and had it surfaced, reinstalled it, and was
> never able to get the car started again.
>
> I thought it was going to be a simple problem, because the guy had
> really screwed up the engine timing. The cam gear has a dot on both
> sides, and he had lined up the outside dot with the front of the valve
> cover, and then had changed all the plug wires around to try to
> correct for being 180 degrees out. So, the first order of business was
> to line everything up right and reinstall the timing belt. The two
> marks on the harmonic balancer and the intermediate sprocket that
> drives the distributor are now correctly lined up with one another,
> and the valves are set to TDC on number 1 with the inside alignment
> dot (the one on the tooth, not the one on the valley) lined up with
> the top corner of the valve cover. The distributor is now pointing to
> the engine block, and the plugs are correctly lined up 1-3-4-2.
>
> Along the way, we discovered that the fuel pump relay was shot and the
> fuel filter was clogged, so we jumpered around the relay, and replaced
> the fuel filter. We're now getting a good conical spray of gasoline
> from all four injectors.
>
> It still wouldn't start, so we tested compression and discovered that
> the #1 cylinder was down to 50 pounds, and #4 was sitting at 75
> pounds. We took the pistons out, found all the top rings stuck and all
> the rings on #1 an #4 stuck. We cleaned everything up, re-ringed
> them, cleaned up the badly carboned-up cylinders, and reinstalled the
> pistons with new con rod bearings. While the top was off the engine, I
> replaced the badly shot o-rings and shrouds on the injectors and put
> in new plugs, properly gapped.
>
> At 11 p.m. last Friday night, after a long evening of putting
> everything back together, we attempted to start the car. We filled it
> with oil and coolant, hooked up the battery, got in, and twisted the
> key. Exactly the same result as we had before. It cranks perfectly,
> starts backfiring as soon as there's enough gas to do so, and
> absolutely refuses to run.
>
> With all the work we've done on the engine, I'm convinced that's not
> the problem any more, but that it's gotta be something hanging off the
> engine. So, what? Hall sender? Computer? I don't know what to try
> next, although pushing it off a cliff is beginning to look pretty
> good.
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