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Next: E-shift behavior with '02 IS300
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External
Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 8
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:08 am
Post subject: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup
Archived from groups: alt>autos>lexus (more info?)
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Greetings
I have a 4 month old IS300 that makes excessive engine valve noise for
2-3 seconds at startup. Has anyone else experienced this? I am trying
to get Lexus to fix the car and they refuse -- claim that this is
normal. I have asked, if this is normal, for a copy of the noise
specification for startup valve noise. I am compiling statistics on
this issue. I would love to hear from you whether your IS does or does
not make valve noise. I live in CA and am collecting stats to go "Lemon
Law" on the car.
Thanks.
Martin |
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External
Since: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:31 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I have this same engine in my GS and if it is cold, it has a very brief
momentary clatter on startup, but it is so short, it is almost unaudible.
You sound like you have a legitimate gripe. My guess is that you've got a
valve sticking - I've been told this engine has solid lifters so there is no
hydrualic lifter to "pump up." Does the engine tend to labor slightly and
feel like it is misfiring until the noise goes away? This would be
consistent with a sticking valve. It hangs up momentarily and "slaps" the
cam rather than smoothly following the cam lobe.
Reaming the valve guides is not a big repair and unless you're just looking
for an excuse to lemon, I would think you could find a dealer willing to
take care of this for you. Have you tired another dealer? I'd leave the
car overnight and have a mechanic and a service advisor with you the next
morning during startup. Maybe bring a tape recorder. Get them to commit in
writing that what you're experiencing is "normal". This is probably not
something that is formally spec'd.
A shade-tree repair is to do a triple does of fuel system cleaner and use
some kind of oil additive for a few hundred miles. The one mostly widely
used is "Marvel Mystery Oil". It really does work in some cases. But if
the car is brand new, then valve deposits are not likely the problem.
If you are going lemon, keep careful track of everything and make sure you
are following the lemon law to the letter. Many people think they can just
lemon a car when it generally is a pain, but the law is very specific about
what has to occur before it kicks in. Once you meet the letter of the law,
dealers (and Lexus) will generally bend over backwards to avoid the buyback,
including getting you into another car with no money out of pocket.
- Mark |
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External
Since: Aug 21, 2003
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:11 am
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I have a 2002 IS300 with just under 20,000 miles and have noticed no undue
startup valve noise (although now I will undoubtedly be listening more
closely  ). Incidentally, I also live in CA (Huntington Beach).
"Martin Donnelly" <madonnel.RemoveThis@cisco.com> wrote in message
news:1075745192.74052@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Greetings
>
> I have a 4 month old IS300 that makes excessive engine valve noise for
> 2-3 seconds at startup. Has anyone else experienced this? I am trying
> to get Lexus to fix the car and they refuse -- claim that this is
> normal. I have asked, if this is normal, for a copy of the noise
> specification for startup valve noise. I am compiling statistics on
> this issue. I would love to hear from you whether your IS does or does
> not make valve noise. I live in CA and am collecting stats to go "Lemon
> Law" on the car.
>
> Thanks.
> Martin
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 26
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:26 am
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I have an IS300 with about 18K on it and I've never noticed unusual noise
upon start up. Many cars do this however so it's not that uncommon. I would
ask the dealer to cold start a couple of IS300 they have on the lot, or a
GS300 (same engine) and let you listen and see if they sound
different/quieter than yours. Perhaps the oil filter has a bad antidrain
back valve in it that allows the oil filter to partially empty out when
parked. Upon starting, it takes a few extra seconds to re-fill the filter
before the oil goes to the valves. Might try changing that filter just to
see. Can't be a hydraulic cam chain tensioner as someone else mentioned
because the IS300 has a rubber timing belt.
What weight oil are you using? Anything heavier than about 10w-30 may take
too long to pump up. Does this noise happen upon every start? What about
after a fresh oil change? If it's happening after a couple thousand miles,
maybe the oil is being sheared down too thin? Change it more often or use a
synthetic instead?
Have you ever over-revved it? Could have damaged the valve train if so.
Lastly, at least get the dealer to perform a valve lash inspection.
Clearances too loose can make for a noisy valve train.
--
-WJB
"Martin Donnelly" <madonnel.DeleteThis@cisco.com> wrote in message
news:1075745192.74052@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Greetings
>
> I have a 4 month old IS300 that makes excessive engine valve noise for
> 2-3 seconds at startup. Has anyone else experienced this? I am trying
> to get Lexus to fix the car and they refuse -- claim that this is
> normal. I have asked, if this is normal, for a copy of the noise
> specification for startup valve noise. I am compiling statistics on
> this issue. I would love to hear from you whether your IS does or does
> not make valve noise. I live in CA and am collecting stats to go "Lemon
> Law" on the car.
>
> Thanks.
> Martin
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 8
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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The car does not seem to labor at all during startup. It just makes
valve noise for 2-3 seconds (I have recorded the sound on a computer).
I have taken the car to 2 different dealers and both have said the same
thing. I have listened to a total of 6 IS and GS models that do not
make any noise. I listened to an IS that had not ran for "a couple of
weeks" that did make noise -- not surprise to me, but the dealer thought
it was representative. I changed the oil at 1245 miles on
recommendation of Putnam Lexus -- I had to pay for the oil change and it
made no difference. I have been following the CA Lemon Law guidelines
and need one more trip to the dealer before I can start. I did send a
package to Lexus US Corporate offices in Torrance. I sent it registered
mail to get the return receipt for the Lemon Law. I have had 3
non-Lexus mechanics listen to the engine -- I have had to pay them.
They all think that the engine is too noisy at startup. The Lexus
service manager told me "Our mechanics are all professionals!" I
reminded him that novices built the ark, but professionals built the
Titanic. I will not let this drop, since I drive my cars until they are
old and I think that I will have to put my money into this one after
warranty. We have a 94 LS400 that has been flawless. I will probably
be replacing it in a year or so -- not with a Lexus unless this one gets
fixed. I think that this issue can be directly correlated to the loss
of 4 cars from people here at work so far. I gave Lexus good remarks on
the initial Lexus survey. I hammered them on a third party survey about
initial quality for new car owners.
Martin
Jeff Bertrand wrote:
> I have an IS300 with about 18K on it and I've never noticed unusual noise
> upon start up. Many cars do this however so it's not that uncommon. I would
> ask the dealer to cold start a couple of IS300 they have on the lot, or a
> GS300 (same engine) and let you listen and see if they sound
> different/quieter than yours. Perhaps the oil filter has a bad antidrain
> back valve in it that allows the oil filter to partially empty out when
> parked. Upon starting, it takes a few extra seconds to re-fill the filter
> before the oil goes to the valves. Might try changing that filter just to
> see. Can't be a hydraulic cam chain tensioner as someone else mentioned
> because the IS300 has a rubber timing belt.
>
> What weight oil are you using? Anything heavier than about 10w-30 may take
> too long to pump up. Does this noise happen upon every start? What about
> after a fresh oil change? If it's happening after a couple thousand miles,
> maybe the oil is being sheared down too thin? Change it more often or use a
> synthetic instead?
>
> Have you ever over-revved it? Could have damaged the valve train if so.
>
> Lastly, at least get the dealer to perform a valve lash inspection.
> Clearances too loose can make for a noisy valve train.
><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> the initial Lexus survey. I hammered them on a third party survey about
> initial quality for new car owners.
Oooooooooooooh, you're just so mean. I guess even Toyota (lexus) makes
duds once in a while. With your mileage, you should wait and see for a
short while. Sometimes the engine needs to wear itself in. Don't be
surprised the Lexus dealer is dragging their feet about tearing apart your
engine, it can create more problems than it solves. Check the oil level,
see if it's in the top portion of the XXXX on the dipstick.
"Martin Donnelly" <madonnel.DeleteThis@cisco.com> wrote in message
news:1075839332.504615@sj-nntpcache-5...
> The car does not seem to labor at all during startup. It just makes
> valve noise for 2-3 seconds (I have recorded the sound on a computer).
> I have taken the car to 2 different dealers and both have said the same
> thing. I have listened to a total of 6 IS and GS models that do not
> make any noise. I listened to an IS that had not ran for "a couple of
> weeks" that did make noise -- not surprise to me, but the dealer thought
> it was representative. I changed the oil at 1245 miles on
> recommendation of Putnam Lexus -- I had to pay for the oil change and it
> made no difference. I have been following the CA Lemon Law guidelines
> and need one more trip to the dealer before I can start. I did send a
> package to Lexus US Corporate offices in Torrance. I sent it registered
> mail to get the return receipt for the Lemon Law. I have had 3
> non-Lexus mechanics listen to the engine -- I have had to pay them.
> They all think that the engine is too noisy at startup. The Lexus
> service manager told me "Our mechanics are all professionals!" I
> reminded him that novices built the ark, but professionals built the
> Titanic. I will not let this drop, since I drive my cars until they are
> old and I think that I will have to put my money into this one after
> warranty. We have a 94 LS400 that has been flawless. I will probably
> be replacing it in a year or so -- not with a Lexus unless this one gets
> fixed. I think that this issue can be directly correlated to the loss
> of 4 cars from people here at work so far. I gave Lexus good remarks on<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Well, it sounds like you have a complaint, but honestly, I think you're
overplaying your hand if you think you can lemon law your car because it
clatters a bit for two-seconds on cold startup. This is one of the
borderline things like somewhat elevated oil consumption - there is just
variability from car to car. I have owned cars and motorcycles that have
exhibited this behavior to some degree for hundreds of thousands of miles
with no ill effect. Virtually all E36 M3s do it, including the one I used
to own. That doesn't mean it is rigorously correct that it does this, but
it is a gray area and if you push this thing to the lawyer stage, you
probably have just a good a chance of losing as winning.
I'd look for another way out, particularly a dealer who will work with you
to solve the problem. Or get it documented on a work order and see what the
trend line is for 20K miles. If it's not serious, it will likely diminish -
if its serious it will likely get worse.
Good luck,
- Mark >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:44 am
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Forget the valves. Has it occurred to you that any
rattle/clank/chatter that goes away within a couple of seconds of
establishing oil pressure is NOT valves? May I add that if you
insist on racing the engine at the moment the engine starts IS GOING
TO make *any* engine rattle during the moments the oil filter is
filling up. So do what you have to, to prevent a 2,000 rpm flare up
on cold start. Get a high quality oil filter known for having a
quality anti drain-back valve, use nothing thinner than 10w-30 oil,
and don't rev the engine the second you let go of the ignition key.
ANY fuel injected engine in the past 20 years requires NO throttle
for a normal cold start.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM
In news:1075839332.504615@sj-nntpcache-5,
Martin Donnelly <madonnel DeleteThis @cisco.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> The car does not seem to labor at all during startup. It just
> makes valve noise for 2-3 seconds (I have recorded the sound on a
> computer). I have taken the car to 2 different dealers and both
> have said the same thing. I have listened to a total of 6 IS and
> GS models that do not make any noise. I listened to an IS that
> had not ran for "a couple of weeks" that did make noise -- not
> surprise to me, but the dealer thought it was representative. I
> changed the oil at 1245 miles on recommendation of Putnam Lexus --
> I had to pay for the oil change and it made no difference. I have
> been following the CA Lemon Law guidelines and need one more trip
> to the dealer before I can start. I did send a package to Lexus
> US Corporate offices in Torrance. I sent it registered mail to
> get the return receipt for the Lemon Law. I have had 3 non-Lexus
> mechanics listen to the engine -- I have had to pay them. They all
> think that the engine is too noisy at startup. The Lexus service
> manager told me "Our mechanics are all professionals!" I reminded
> him that novices built the ark, but professionals built the
> Titanic. I will not let this drop, since I drive my cars until
> they are old and I think that I will have to put my money into
> this one after warranty. We have a 94 LS400 that has been
> flawless. I will probably be replacing it in a year or so -- not
> with a Lexus unless this one gets fixed. I think that this issue
> can be directly correlated to the loss of 4 cars from people here
> at work so far. I gave Lexus good remarks on the initial Lexus
> survey. I hammered them on a third party survey about initial
> quality for new car owners.
>
> Martin
>
> Jeff Bertrand wrote:
>
> > I have an IS300 with about 18K on it and I've never noticed
> > unusual noise upon start up. Many cars do this however so it's
> > not that uncommon. I would ask the dealer to cold start a couple
> > of IS300 they have on the lot, or a GS300 (same engine) and let
> > you listen and see if they sound different/quieter than yours.
> > Perhaps the oil filter has a bad antidrain back valve in it that
> > allows the oil filter to partially empty out when parked. Upon
> > starting, it takes a few extra seconds to re-fill the filter
> > before the oil goes to the valves. Might try changing that
> > filter just to see. Can't be a hydraulic cam chain tensioner as
> > someone else mentioned because the IS300 has a rubber timing
> > belt.
> >
> > What weight oil are you using? Anything heavier than about
> > 10w-30 may take too long to pump up. Does this noise happen
> > upon every start? What about after a fresh oil change? If it's
> > happening after a couple thousand miles, maybe the oil is being
> > sheared down too thin? Change it more often or use a synthetic
> > instead?
> >
> > Have you ever over-revved it? Could have damaged the valve
> > train if so.
> >
> > Lastly, at least get the dealer to perform a valve lash
> > inspection. Clearances too loose can make for a noisy valve
> > train.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2004 1:44 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I too have had the problem on a 98 GS300. I have tried the whole gambit, lemon
law etc. to no avail. Lexus will not repair the noise problem. While it is not
a common problem it is not uncommon. Our GS now has over 55,000 miles and oil
analysis is good after 5000 mile change, Mobil 1, 0-40 Europe. I have been
informed by a couple Lexus mechanics that the noise is caused by the tube
headers and if you pester the dealer enough they may change them but it may take
2 - 3 sets before you find a quite set for your car, luck of the draw. I have
had a good talk with one of their engineers and he said it has to due with the
thermal expansion, contraction of the tube headers, that is why it happens
interment. Best of luck.
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:08:17 -0800, Martin Donnelly <madonnel.DeleteThis@cisco.com> wrote:
>Greetings
>
>I have a 4 month old IS300 that makes excessive engine valve noise for
>2-3 seconds at startup. Has anyone else experienced this? I am trying
>to get Lexus to fix the car and they refuse -- claim that this is
>normal. I have asked, if this is normal, for a copy of the noise
>specification for startup valve noise. I am compiling statistics on
>this issue. I would love to hear from you whether your IS does or does
>not make valve noise. I live in CA and am collecting stats to go "Lemon
>Law" on the car.
>
>Thanks.
>Martin
*****************
Thank You kgsAT.DeleteThis@msbx.net
To reply to this email please remove the AT
after the kgs in the reply to address as shown above.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:05 am
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In news:i7t920tsl9kgbqdvc5ardk2clqs0vus60g@4ax.com,
KG <kgsAT DeleteThis @msbx.net> being of bellicose mind posted:
> I have been
> informed by a couple Lexus mechanics that the noise is caused by
> the tube headers and if you pester the dealer enough they may
> change them but it may take 2 - 3 sets before you find a quite set
> for your car, luck of the draw.
What a load of steer manure. Tubing headers do not produce any noise
that suddenly silences itself a second or two after oil pressure
establishes.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:08:17 -0800, Martin Donnelly
> <madonnel DeleteThis @cisco.com> wrote:
>
> > Greetings
> >
> > I have a 4 month old IS300 that makes excessive engine valve
> > noise for 2-3 seconds at startup. Has anyone else experienced
> > this? I am trying to get Lexus to fix the car and they refuse
> > -- claim that this is normal. I have asked, if this is normal,
> > for a copy of the noise specification for startup valve noise.
> > I am compiling statistics on this issue. I would love to hear
> > from you whether your IS does or does not make valve noise. I
> > live in CA and am collecting stats to go "Lemon Law" on the car.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Martin
>
> *****************
> Thank You kgsAT DeleteThis @msbx.net
>
> To reply to this email please remove the AT
> after the kgs in the reply to address as shown above.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:05 am
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Since: Jan 24, 2004
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 8:02 am
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 01:05:48 GMT, "markjen" <mark.jennings4 DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>What is a "tube header"?
>
>- Mark
>
The exhaust pipes from the engine head. They are often cast but with the Lexus
GS 300 they are a heavy tubular material, they are sometimes call tube headers.
*****************
Thank You kgsAT DeleteThis @msbx.net
To reply to this email please remove the AT
after the kgs in the reply to address as shown above.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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Since: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 41
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:13 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> The exhaust pipes from the engine head. They are often cast but with the
Lexus
> GS 300 they are a heavy tubular material, they are sometimes call tube
headers.
Then I have to agree with the other poster - unlikely source of something
that sounds like startup valve clatter.
- Mark<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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External
Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 8
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:47 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hello Philip
I do not race the engine at startup. I do not even touch the throttle.
The oil was changed at 1000 miles by Lexus with a Lexus oil filter in
an attempt to quiet the noise. The problem is that oil pump allows the
oil that is up in the engine to drain back into the oil pan. A mechanic
who has fixed this problem after market told me that he has seen engines
with this problem and there are 2 possible causes -- the oil pump is
defective, or the oil pump is improperly installed. He said that either
one is a simple repair. He owns a Supra and is very familiar with
Toyota engines.
Martin
Philip® wrote:
> Forget the valves. Has it occurred to you that any
> rattle/clank/chatter that goes away within a couple of seconds of
> establishing oil pressure is NOT valves? May I add that if you
> insist on racing the engine at the moment the engine starts IS GOING
> TO make *any* engine rattle during the moments the oil filter is
> filling up. So do what you have to, to prevent a 2,000 rpm flare up
> on cold start. Get a high quality oil filter known for having a
> quality anti drain-back valve, use nothing thinner than 10w-30 oil,
> and don't rev the engine the second you let go of the ignition key.
> ANY fuel injected engine in the past 20 years requires NO throttle
> for a normal cold start.
> --
>
> - Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM
>
>
> In news:1075839332.504615@sj-nntpcache-5,
> Martin Donnelly <madonnel.TakeThisOut@cisco.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
>
>>The car does not seem to labor at all during startup. It just
>>makes valve noise for 2-3 seconds (I have recorded the sound on a
>>computer). I have taken the car to 2 different dealers and both
>>have said the same thing. I have listened to a total of 6 IS and
>>GS models that do not make any noise. I listened to an IS that
>>had not ran for "a couple of weeks" that did make noise -- not
>>surprise to me, but the dealer thought it was representative. I
>>changed the oil at 1245 miles on recommendation of Putnam Lexus --
>>I had to pay for the oil change and it made no difference. I have
>>been following the CA Lemon Law guidelines and need one more trip
>>to the dealer before I can start. I did send a package to Lexus
>> US Corporate offices in Torrance. I sent it registered mail to
>>get the return receipt for the Lemon Law. I have had 3 non-Lexus
>>mechanics listen to the engine -- I have had to pay them. They all
>>think that the engine is too noisy at startup. The Lexus service
>>manager told me "Our mechanics are all professionals!" I reminded
>>him that novices built the ark, but professionals built the
>>Titanic. I will not let this drop, since I drive my cars until
>>they are old and I think that I will have to put my money into
>>this one after warranty. We have a 94 LS400 that has been
>>flawless. I will probably be replacing it in a year or so -- not
>>with a Lexus unless this one gets fixed. I think that this issue
>>can be directly correlated to the loss of 4 cars from people here
>>at work so far. I gave Lexus good remarks on the initial Lexus
>>survey. I hammered them on a third party survey about initial
>>quality for new car owners.
>>
>>Martin
>>
>>Jeff Bertrand wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I have an IS300 with about 18K on it and I've never noticed
>>>unusual noise upon start up. Many cars do this however so it's
>>>not that uncommon. I would ask the dealer to cold start a couple
>>>of IS300 they have on the lot, or a GS300 (same engine) and let
>>>you listen and see if they sound different/quieter than yours.
>>>Perhaps the oil filter has a bad antidrain back valve in it that
>>>allows the oil filter to partially empty out when parked. Upon
>>>starting, it takes a few extra seconds to re-fill the filter
>>>before the oil goes to the valves. Might try changing that
>>>filter just to see. Can't be a hydraulic cam chain tensioner as
>>>someone else mentioned because the IS300 has a rubber timing
>>>belt.
>>>
>>>What weight oil are you using? Anything heavier than about
>>>10w-30 may take too long to pump up. Does this noise happen
>>>upon every start? What about after a fresh oil change? If it's
>>>happening after a couple thousand miles, maybe the oil is being
>>>sheared down too thin? Change it more often or use a synthetic
>>>instead?
>>>
>>>Have you ever over-revved it? Could have damaged the valve
>>>train if so.
>>>
>>>Lastly, at least get the dealer to perform a valve lash
>>>inspection. Clearances too loose can make for a noisy valve
>>>train.
>
>
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><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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Since: Dec 31, 2003
Posts: 74
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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The oil pump has NO provision to control oil draining back through it
to the oil pan. You're "mechanic" is telling you something that just
isn't so. He needs the work apparently. Examine your oil pump (any
pump for that matter) in a shop manual and you will find their is no
one-way check valve in the inlet nor the outlet of the oil pump.
There is an oil pressure relief valve whose purpose is to limit
maximum oil pump pressure by venting excess oil back to the oil pan.
When you have plenty of oil pressure above idle, there is no problem
with the oil pump.
Now ... in the oil filter, you WILL find a rubber disc flapper that
performs this function (drain back prevention). Both the "anti-drain
back valve" and the "filter bypass valve" are both located inside the
filter. Engines that mount the filter horizontally or with the
threaded end down are most vulnerable to losing their contents back
to the oil pan overnight .... obviously. Toyota has in recent years
begun using oil filter adaptors that reposition the filter to the
optimal position to prevent overnight drainage. This would be with
the threaded end UP.
IN any case, non hydraulic valves do not make noise only in the first
few seconds upon cold startup. In the case of really leaky hydraulic
lifters, the tapping would also return after a prolonged run down the
interstate in hot weather.
--
- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM
In news:1077565539.62673@sj-nntpcache-5,
Martin Donnelly <madonnel RemoveThis @cisco.com> being of bellicose mind posted:
> Hello Philip
>
> I do not race the engine at startup. I do not even touch the
> throttle. The oil was changed at 1000 miles by Lexus with a
> Lexus oil filter in an attempt to quiet the noise. The problem is
> that oil pump allows the oil that is up in the engine to drain
> back into the oil pan. A mechanic who has fixed this problem
> after market told me that he has seen engines with this problem
> and there are 2 possible causes -- the oil pump is defective, or
> the oil pump is improperly installed. He said that either one is
> a simple repair. He owns a Supra and is very familiar with Toyota
> engines.
> Martin
>
> Philip® wrote:
> > Forget the valves. Has it occurred to you that any
> > rattle/clank/chatter that goes away within a couple of seconds of
> > establishing oil pressure is NOT valves? May I add that if you
> > insist on racing the engine at the moment the engine starts IS
> > GOING TO make *any* engine rattle during the moments the oil
> > filter is filling up. So do what you have to, to prevent a
> > 2,000 rpm flare up on cold start. Get a high quality oil filter
> > known for having a quality anti drain-back valve, use nothing
> > thinner than 10w-30 oil, and don't rev the engine the second you
> > let go of the ignition key. ANY fuel injected engine in the past
> > 20 years requires NO throttle for a normal cold start.
> > --
> >
> > - Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM
> >
> >
> > In news:1075839332.504615@sj-nntpcache-5,
> > Martin Donnelly <madonnel RemoveThis @cisco.com> being of bellicose mind
> > posted:
> >
> > > The car does not seem to labor at all during startup. It just
> > > makes valve noise for 2-3 seconds (I have recorded the sound
> > > on a computer). I have taken the car to 2 different dealers
> > > and both have said the same thing. I have listened to a total
> > > of 6 IS and GS models that do not make any noise. I listened
> > > to an IS that had not ran for "a couple of weeks" that did
> > > make noise -- not surprise to me, but the dealer thought it
> > > was representative. I changed the oil at 1245 miles on
> > > recommendation of Putnam Lexus -- I had to pay for the oil
> > > change and it made no difference. I have been following the
> > > CA Lemon Law guidelines and need one more trip to the dealer
> > > before I can start. I did send a package to Lexus US
> > > Corporate offices in Torrance. I sent it registered mail to
> > > get the return receipt for the Lemon Law. I have had 3
> > > non-Lexus mechanics listen to the engine -- I have had to pay
> > > them. They all think that the engine is too noisy at startup.
> > > The Lexus service manager told me "Our mechanics are all
> > > professionals!" I reminded him that novices built the ark,
> > > but professionals built the Titanic. I will not let this
> > > drop, since I drive my cars until they are old and I think
> > > that I will have to put my money into this one after warranty.
> > > We have a 94 LS400 that has been flawless. I will probably be
> > > replacing it in a year or so -- not with a Lexus unless this
> > > one gets fixed. I think that this issue can be directly
> > > correlated to the loss of 4 cars from people here at work so
> > > far. I gave Lexus good remarks on the initial Lexus survey.
> > > I hammered them on a third party survey about initial quality
> > > for new car owners.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > Jeff Bertrand wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have an IS300 with about 18K on it and I've never noticed
> > > > unusual noise upon start up. Many cars do this however so
> > > > it's not that uncommon. I would ask the dealer to cold start
> > > > a couple of IS300 they have on the lot, or a GS300 (same
> > > > engine) and let you listen and see if they sound
> > > > different/quieter than yours. Perhaps the oil filter has a
> > > > bad antidrain back valve in it that allows the oil filter to
> > > > partially empty out when parked. Upon starting, it takes a
> > > > few extra seconds to re-fill the filter before the oil goes
> > > > to the valves. Might try changing that filter just to see.
> > > > Can't be a hydraulic cam chain tensioner as someone else
> > > > mentioned because the IS300 has a rubber timing belt.
> > > >
> > > > What weight oil are you using? Anything heavier than about
> > > > 10w-30 may take too long to pump up. Does this noise happen
> > > > upon every start? What about after a fresh oil change? If
> > > > it's happening after a couple thousand miles, maybe the oil
> > > > is being sheared down too thin? Change it more often or use
> > > > a synthetic instead?
> > > >
> > > > Have you ever over-revved it? Could have damaged the valve
> > > > train if so.
> > > >
> > > > Lastly, at least get the dealer to perform a valve lash
> > > > inspection. Clearances too loose can make for a noisy valve
> > > > train.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: IS300 Excessive Valve Noise at Startup |
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