GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter

"Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eujoiv.3bo.1@news.evilcabal.org...
>
> "Ed White" <ce.white3.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1175296985.757426.46310@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter
>
> *snip*
>
> Wow, why parade your pain? To beat us to it?

Facts are facts.

Not my pain. Just because I think Toyotas are over hyped, over rated, and
WAY over priced doesn't mean I suffer because Toyota is are doing well. I
don't own stock in any domestic automaker and I am close enough to
retirement that it is not going to matter much to me that all the jobs have
moved off shore. What goes around comes around. I don't think Toyota can
fool all of the people all of the time.

> Besides, we should have expected this, with gas prices steadily rising, no
> matter what brand of truck.

Absolutely. To a certain extent, the domestic manufacturers are victims of
their own success. Trucks and SUVs were so profitable that they neglected
car lines. However, as I have pointed out more than once Toyota has been
following the exact same strategy. The only thing that is saving them is the
ready availability of models designed for other markets that they can ship
to the US. The most fuel efficient Toyota models are all imports. Some
Corollas are assembled in North America, but that is a tired old design.

Ed
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

"C. E. White"...
>
> "Wickeddoll®" ...
>>
....
>>> GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter
>>
>> *snip*
>>
>> Wow, why parade your pain? To beat us to it?
>
> Facts are facts.
>
> Not my pain. Just because I think Toyotas are over hyped, over rated, and
> WAY over priced doesn't mean I suffer because Toyota is are doing well. I
> don't own stock in any domestic automaker and I am close enough to
> retirement that it is not going to matter much to me that all the jobs
> have moved off shore. What goes around comes around. I don't think Toyota
> can fool all of the people all of the time.

Well, I guess I'm a fool, and I doubt I'll ever "wise up" since their cars
have always been great. Clearly it bothers you that the D3 are in
trouble, or you wouldn't tout them so much on the Toyota NG. That's your
right, of course, but I still resent that you think we're foolish to be
happy with our cars. You are not living our lives, and cannot know what
it's like to own our cars. It's insulting, and oh yeah, condescending. I
don't have a problem with your obvious bias against Toyotas, but please stop
talking down to us, as though we are idiots.
>
>> Besides, we should have expected this, with gas prices steadily rising,
>> no matter what brand of truck.
>
> Absolutely. To a certain extent, the domestic manufacturers are victims of
> their own success. Trucks and SUVs were so profitable that they neglected
> car lines. However, as I have pointed out more than once Toyota has been
> following the exact same strategy. The only thing that is saving them is
> the ready availability of models designed for other markets that they can
> ship to the US. The most fuel efficient Toyota models are all imports.
> Some Corollas are assembled in North America, but that is a tired old
> design.
>
> Ed
>
Agree on the Corolla, but I feel the same way about several of Toyota's
models (the ubiquitous Camry -*yawn*)

But looks are only a *small* factor for me, when it comes to cars.

Which may explain why I love my 2000 Echo.



Natalie
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

Ford truck sales may be down on the charts for the month, but Toyotas truck
sales bearly show up on those sales charts LOL


mike


"C. E. White" <cewhite3 RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:cSEPh.22088$oV.16200@attbi_s21...
>
> "Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eujoiv.3bo.1@news.evilcabal.org...
>>
>> "Ed White" <ce.white3 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1175296985.757426.46310@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter
>>
>> *snip*
>>
>> Wow, why parade your pain? To beat us to it?
>
> Facts are facts.
>
> Not my pain. Just because I think Toyotas are over hyped, over rated, and
> WAY over priced doesn't mean I suffer because Toyota is are doing well. I
> don't own stock in any domestic automaker and I am close enough to
> retirement that it is not going to matter much to me that all the jobs
> have moved off shore. What goes around comes around. I don't think Toyota
> can fool all of the people all of the time.
>
>> Besides, we should have expected this, with gas prices steadily rising,
>> no matter what brand of truck.
>
> Absolutely. To a certain extent, the domestic manufacturers are victims of
> their own success. Trucks and SUVs were so profitable that they neglected
> car lines. However, as I have pointed out more than once Toyota has been
> following the exact same strategy. The only thing that is saving them is
> the ready availability of models designed for other markets that they can
> ship to the US. The most fuel efficient Toyota models are all imports.
> Some Corollas are assembled in North America, but that is a tired old
> design.
>
> Ed
>
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

"Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eumojm.i4.1@news.evilcabal.org...

> Well, I guess I'm a fool, and I doubt I'll ever "wise up" since their cars
> have always been great. Clearly it bothers you that the D3 are in
> trouble, or you wouldn't tout them so much on the Toyota NG.

It bothers me that so many American have decided that no domestic vehicles
are worthy of consideration. I know people who won't even consider a
domestic vehicle.There are 30 year old Americans who have never even driven
a domestic vehicle, yet they are willing to tout the superiority of foreign
vehicles. It bothers me when I see my fellow Americans loosing their jobs.
It bothers me when Ford starts building cars in Mexico so they can compete
on price. Maybe you don't know anyone who lost their automotive job, but I
do. It bothers me that Toyota was allowed to build its business in a
protected market while our government made rules that in the long run made
the US domestic industry less competitive.

> That's your right, of course, but I still resent that you think we're
> foolish to be happy with our cars. You are not living our lives, and
> cannot know what it's like to own our cars. It's insulting, and oh yeah,
> condescending. I don't have a problem with your obvious bias against
> Toyotas, but please stop talking down to us, as though we are idiots.

I never called you a fool or an idiot. I don't think I am superior to you
(although I am sure we each know more about some things than the other
does). I do have my opinions and I don't mind sharing them. Naturally I
think they are well founded, but I have made a few mistakes in the past, and
may well make more mistakes in the future. If you find my expressions of my
opinions condescending, maybe you need to figure out why someone who doesn't
agree with your opinions bothers you so much. I certainly don't lose any
sleep when someone says bad things about my Nissan Frontier. I may try to
explain why I don't agree, but I won't accuse them of trying to insult me. I
do dislike it when some people turn things into personal attacks, but I try
not to do that and I don't think I have ever made any personal attacks
against you. When someone makes what I believe is an incorrect statement,
then I will try to correct them. If someone expresses an opinion I don't
agree with, then I don't mind expressing my divergent opinion. This is not
being condescending. Disagreeing with a person is not the same as calling
them an idiot or talking down to them. If you don't agree with someone and
you keep you mouth shut, chances are they will take that as tacit agreement
(even if it isn't). Mike Hunter might justifiably call me condescending, but
I don't think you should.

Here are some of my opinions on Toyota:

1) I believe Toyota has ands is still engaging in deceptive marketing
practices. The current Tundra ads are some of the most deceptive ads I've
ever seen. The inflated horsepower numbers form a couple of years ago is
another example. Yet another is the deceptive loan practices of Toyota's
financing arm.

2) I believe Toyota has "dumped" products on the US market in an attempt to
drive competitors out of business. They can write off development costs
against vehicles sold in the relatively protected Japanese market and then
sell low end vehicles in the US at less than US manufacturers can develop
and manufacture competitive vehicles.

3) I don't believe Toyota vehicles in general are significantly worse than
other major manufacturer's products, but I don't think they are
significantly better either. I can't prove this, but I don't think you can
prove the opposite. A collection of apocryphal stories is not data.

4) I have owned a Toyota. I know people who currently own Toyotas. I
regularly drive my SO's Toyota. I might even buy a Toyota some day. And
ironically I tried to talk my Sister into at least trying a Toyota when she
was car shopping (anything is better than a VW in my mind).

5) I believe the press gives Toyota a relatively free ride on recalls, while
publicizing any recall by a domestic manufacturer as if it was the end of
the world.

6) If you took any article on the Toyota Sludge problems and replaced
"Toyota" with "Chevrolet" many Toyota apologists would immediately believe
the article was accurate and than the sludge was totally GMs fault.

7) Toyota tries to cover-up evidence of problems. For a prime example read
the documents on the NHTSA web site with regards to Tundra/Tacoma ball joint
failures. Toyota restricts access to their service bulletins. Unlike the
domestic manufacturers you can't go to Alldata and get a current list of
Toyota TSBs. Unless you are willing to pay for access, there is no easy way
to see if there is a TSB describing a problem with a Toyota. You can go to
the NHTSA web site and search for TSB that describe "safety" problems, but
unlike domestic manufacturers, Toyota tends to feel that only a very few
TSBs decribe safety problems, so only a relatively few TSBs are listed
there.

Toyotas are over-priced compared to similar vehicles from other
manufacturers (foreign and domestic)

9) Toyota charges to much for replacement parts.

10) Toyota dealers tend to be less responsive than most other brands. I fell
this is a result of Toyota recent marketing gains - too few dealers for the
volume of cars being sold. Within 30 miles of where I set, there are 7 Ford
dealers, 7 Chevrolet dealers and 3 Toyota dealers. When I was trying to buy
a pick-up truck I found the local Toyota dealer to be impossible to deal
with. They sometimes quoted low prices, but then under valued a trade in and
tried to tack on ridiculous extra fees.

>>> Besides, we should have expected this, with gas prices steadily rising,
>>> no matter what brand of truck.
>>
>> Absolutely. To a certain extent, the domestic manufacturers are victims
>> of their own success. Trucks and SUVs were so profitable that they
>> neglected car lines. However, as I have pointed out more than once Toyota
>> has been following the exact same strategy. The only thing that is saving
>> them is the ready availability of models designed for other markets that
>> they can ship to the US. The most fuel efficient Toyota models are all
>> imports. Some Corollas are assembled in North America, but that is a
>> tired old design.
>>
>> Ed
>>
> Agree on the Corolla, but I feel the same way about several of Toyota's
> models (the ubiquitous Camry -*yawn*)
>
> But looks are only a *small* factor for me, when it comes to cars.
>
> Which may explain why I love my 2000 Echo.

If it suits you, then what does it matter what I think. I liked Pintos (I
owned 2). I often defend Pintos, particualrly when people who have never
owned or driven a Pinto start using them as an example of a bad car. I don't
lose a lot of sleep becasue some people contuinue to think Pintos were bad
cars. You shouldn't lose any sleep becasue I don't think Echos are the apex
of automotive developement. If there was only one "right" car, then things
would be very boring.

Ed
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

Great post. And I whole heartedly agree with you. I've worked on both
foreign and domestic, as you are well aware. What you described about toys
deceptive practices is completely true. I've seen it with my own eyes and
was told to do it that way. I have also said the jap scrap was no better and
I still believe that. I also believe that the domestics are just as good or
better, but toy owners refuse to believe that also. I currently own a 500 hp
91 gt fox body stang that I built, and is in off the production line
condition, and has never given me a mechanical problem aside from the fact
that it is finicky, and you would know why. I also have a 96 contour V6
which is my wife's car and has over 100k on the clock with just a water pump
replacement. That due to the stator vanes being plastic, which broke and
burnt out the impeller bearings. My other car is a 01 Sonata, which has been
good, except for the paint peeling off the door handles due to poor
workmanship, no primer on the plastic, and which they refused to deal with
because it was 2 months over the 3 year paint warranty which was a piss poor
excuse for excusing the quality of the paint job. I've owned a Camry which
was also decent, but around 50k's the cam lobs were worn, which was also
unacceptable and toy would not cover it. I was a mech at a toy dealership at
the time. That soured me on toys. All in all, they all make decent vehicles.
"C. E. White" <cewhite.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bTeQh.20497$Jl.5377@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eumojm.i4.1@news.evilcabal.org...
>
> > Well, I guess I'm a fool, and I doubt I'll ever "wise up" since their
cars
> > have always been great. Clearly it bothers you that the D3 are in
> > trouble, or you wouldn't tout them so much on the Toyota NG.
>
> It bothers me that so many American have decided that no domestic vehicles
> are worthy of consideration. I know people who won't even consider a
> domestic vehicle.There are 30 year old Americans who have never even
driven
> a domestic vehicle, yet they are willing to tout the superiority of
foreign
> vehicles. It bothers me when I see my fellow Americans loosing their
jobs.
> It bothers me when Ford starts building cars in Mexico so they can compete
> on price. Maybe you don't know anyone who lost their automotive job, but I
> do. It bothers me that Toyota was allowed to build its business in a
> protected market while our government made rules that in the long run made
> the US domestic industry less competitive.
>
> > That's your right, of course, but I still resent that you think we're
> > foolish to be happy with our cars. You are not living our lives, and
> > cannot know what it's like to own our cars. It's insulting, and oh
yeah,
> > condescending. I don't have a problem with your obvious bias against
> > Toyotas, but please stop talking down to us, as though we are idiots.
>
> I never called you a fool or an idiot. I don't think I am superior to you
> (although I am sure we each know more about some things than the other
> does). I do have my opinions and I don't mind sharing them. Naturally I
> think they are well founded, but I have made a few mistakes in the past,
and
> may well make more mistakes in the future. If you find my expressions of
my
> opinions condescending, maybe you need to figure out why someone who
doesn't
> agree with your opinions bothers you so much. I certainly don't lose any
> sleep when someone says bad things about my Nissan Frontier. I may try to
> explain why I don't agree, but I won't accuse them of trying to insult me.
I
> do dislike it when some people turn things into personal attacks, but I
try
> not to do that and I don't think I have ever made any personal attacks
> against you. When someone makes what I believe is an incorrect statement,
> then I will try to correct them. If someone expresses an opinion I don't
> agree with, then I don't mind expressing my divergent opinion. This is not
> being condescending. Disagreeing with a person is not the same as calling
> them an idiot or talking down to them. If you don't agree with someone and
> you keep you mouth shut, chances are they will take that as tacit
agreement
> (even if it isn't). Mike Hunter might justifiably call me condescending,
but
> I don't think you should.
>
> Here are some of my opinions on Toyota:
>
> 1) I believe Toyota has ands is still engaging in deceptive marketing
> practices. The current Tundra ads are some of the most deceptive ads I've
> ever seen. The inflated horsepower numbers form a couple of years ago is
> another example. Yet another is the deceptive loan practices of Toyota's
> financing arm.
>
> 2) I believe Toyota has "dumped" products on the US market in an attempt
to
> drive competitors out of business. They can write off development costs
> against vehicles sold in the relatively protected Japanese market and then
> sell low end vehicles in the US at less than US manufacturers can develop
> and manufacture competitive vehicles.
>
> 3) I don't believe Toyota vehicles in general are significantly worse than
> other major manufacturer's products, but I don't think they are
> significantly better either. I can't prove this, but I don't think you can
> prove the opposite. A collection of apocryphal stories is not data.
>
> 4) I have owned a Toyota. I know people who currently own Toyotas. I
> regularly drive my SO's Toyota. I might even buy a Toyota some day. And
> ironically I tried to talk my Sister into at least trying a Toyota when
she
> was car shopping (anything is better than a VW in my mind).
>
> 5) I believe the press gives Toyota a relatively free ride on recalls,
while
> publicizing any recall by a domestic manufacturer as if it was the end of
> the world.
>
> 6) If you took any article on the Toyota Sludge problems and replaced
> "Toyota" with "Chevrolet" many Toyota apologists would immediately believe
> the article was accurate and than the sludge was totally GMs fault.
>
> 7) Toyota tries to cover-up evidence of problems. For a prime example read
> the documents on the NHTSA web site with regards to Tundra/Tacoma ball
joint
> failures. Toyota restricts access to their service bulletins. Unlike the
> domestic manufacturers you can't go to Alldata and get a current list of
> Toyota TSBs. Unless you are willing to pay for access, there is no easy
way
> to see if there is a TSB describing a problem with a Toyota. You can go to
> the NHTSA web site and search for TSB that describe "safety" problems, but
> unlike domestic manufacturers, Toyota tends to feel that only a very few
> TSBs decribe safety problems, so only a relatively few TSBs are listed
> there.
>
> Toyotas are over-priced compared to similar vehicles from other
> manufacturers (foreign and domestic)
>
> 9) Toyota charges to much for replacement parts.
>
> 10) Toyota dealers tend to be less responsive than most other brands. I
fell
> this is a result of Toyota recent marketing gains - too few dealers for
the
> volume of cars being sold. Within 30 miles of where I set, there are 7
Ford
> dealers, 7 Chevrolet dealers and 3 Toyota dealers. When I was trying to
buy
> a pick-up truck I found the local Toyota dealer to be impossible to deal
> with. They sometimes quoted low prices, but then under valued a trade in
and
> tried to tack on ridiculous extra fees.
>
> >>> Besides, we should have expected this, with gas prices steadily
rising,
> >>> no matter what brand of truck.
> >>
> >> Absolutely. To a certain extent, the domestic manufacturers are victims
> >> of their own success. Trucks and SUVs were so profitable that they
> >> neglected car lines. However, as I have pointed out more than once
Toyota
> >> has been following the exact same strategy. The only thing that is
saving
> >> them is the ready availability of models designed for other markets
that
> >> they can ship to the US. The most fuel efficient Toyota models are all
> >> imports. Some Corollas are assembled in North America, but that is a
> >> tired old design.
> >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> > Agree on the Corolla, but I feel the same way about several of Toyota's
> > models (the ubiquitous Camry -*yawn*)
> >
> > But looks are only a *small* factor for me, when it comes to cars.
> >
> > Which may explain why I love my 2000 Echo.
>
> If it suits you, then what does it matter what I think. I liked Pintos (I
> owned 2). I often defend Pintos, particualrly when people who have never
> owned or driven a Pinto start using them as an example of a bad car. I
don't
> lose a lot of sleep becasue some people contuinue to think Pintos were bad
> cars. You shouldn't lose any sleep becasue I don't think Echos are the
apex
> of automotive developement. If there was only one "right" car, then things
> would be very boring.
>
> Ed
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

"C. E. White" <cewhite.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:bTeQh.20497$Jl.5377@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eumojm.i4.1@news.evilcabal.org...
>
>> Well, I guess I'm a fool, and I doubt I'll ever "wise up" since their
>> cars have always been great. Clearly it bothers you that the D3 are
>> in trouble, or you wouldn't tout them so much on the Toyota NG.
>
> It bothers me that so many American have decided that no domestic vehicles
> are worthy of consideration. I know people who won't even consider a
> domestic vehicle.There are 30 year old Americans who have never even
> driven a domestic vehicle, yet they are willing to tout the superiority of
> foreign vehicles. It bothers me when I see my fellow Americans loosing
> their jobs. It bothers me when Ford starts building cars in Mexico so they
> can compete on price. Maybe you don't know anyone who lost their
> automotive job, but I do. It bothers me that Toyota was allowed to build
> its business in a protected market while our government made rules that in
> the long run made the US domestic industry less competitive.
>
>> That's your right, of course, but I still resent that you think we're
>> foolish to be happy with our cars. You are not living our lives, and
>> cannot know what it's like to own our cars. It's insulting, and oh yeah,
>> condescending. I don't have a problem with your obvious bias against
>> Toyotas, but please stop talking down to us, as though we are idiots.
>
> I never called you a fool or an idiot. I don't think I am superior to you
> (although I am sure we each know more about some things than the other
> does). I do have my opinions and I don't mind sharing them. Naturally I
> think they are well founded, but I have made a few mistakes in the past,
> and may well make more mistakes in the future. If you find my expressions
> of my opinions condescending, maybe you need to figure out why someone who
> doesn't agree with your opinions bothers you so much. I certainly don't
> lose any sleep when someone says bad things about my Nissan Frontier. I
> may try to explain why I don't agree, but I won't accuse them of trying to
> insult me. I do dislike it when some people turn things into personal
> attacks, but I try not to do that and I don't think I have ever made any
> personal attacks against you. When someone makes what I believe is an
> incorrect statement, then I will try to correct them. If someone expresses
> an opinion I don't agree with, then I don't mind expressing my divergent
> opinion. This is not being condescending. Disagreeing with a person is not
> the same as calling them an idiot or talking down to them. If you don't
> agree with someone and you keep you mouth shut, chances are they will take
> that as tacit agreement (even if it isn't). Mike Hunter might justifiably
> call me condescending, but I don't think you should.

It's condescending to say we're being "fooled" for one And I, and others on
the Toyota NG have said multiple times that we think domestic car makers do
a good job with *certain types* of vehicles; large ones, for instance, but
you keep saying we're refusing to see that we should have bought domestic
instead. What I resent is someone who obviously has a bias against a
product/subject, yet continues to troll those he knows do not agree with
him. In that way, you're no different from Mike. Having said that, you
only make yourself look like the boy who cried wolf most of the time. I
guess it bothers me that you're so bitter about an effing car, for crying
out loud.

The one Subaru I ever owned was a total POS, yet I'd consider another in a
heartbeat - why? Because I trust that "anecdotal evidence" you are so fond
of dismissing.

And as for keeping my mouth shut, you should consider the same when someone
disputes your claims. If you can counterpoint, why can't those of us who
are happy with our vehicles do the same? Sounds like a double standard to
me.

Your disagreeing with me is not the issue - plenty of others do on *many*
subjects, so I have a fairly thick skin in that regard. It's your refusal
to acknowledge that our opinions may be valid too.
>
> Here are some of my opinions on Toyota:
>
> 1) I believe Toyota has ands is still engaging in deceptive marketing
> practices. The current Tundra ads are some of the most deceptive ads I've
> ever seen. The inflated horsepower numbers form a couple of years ago is
> another example. Yet another is the deceptive loan practices of Toyota's
> financing arm.
>

Like GM/Ford haven't? Puh-leeze. You have to take any marketing with a
grain of salt, and seek your data elsewhere, including personal experiences
of yourself and others.

> 2) I believe Toyota has "dumped" products on the US market in an attempt
> to drive competitors out of business. They can write off development costs
> against vehicles sold in the relatively protected Japanese market and then
> sell low end vehicles in the US at less than US manufacturers can develop
> and manufacture competitive vehicles.

Probably true, but so far their "trash" is way better than what I've tried
to get domestically - I'm talking small cars only, since that's all I've
ever bought.
>
> 3) I don't believe Toyota vehicles in general are significantly worse than
> other major manufacturer's products, but I don't think they are
> significantly better either. I can't prove this, but I don't think you can
> prove the opposite. A collection of apocryphal stories is not data.
>

I trust that data to a point - hasn't failed me yet. When it does, I'll let
you know. Seriously.

> 4) I have owned a Toyota. I know people who currently own Toyotas. I
> regularly drive my SO's Toyota. I might even buy a Toyota some day. And
> ironically I tried to talk my Sister into at least trying a Toyota when
> she was car shopping (anything is better than a VW in my mind).

And I've owned some really shitty other domestic cars, as have my
friends/family. Late model (late 80s to present) have been nothing but
headaches for them. Again, I'm talking *small* cars. Those with trucks,
minivans, etc, are perfectly happy with them, which is why I would consider
*domestic first* with large vehicles.
>
> 5) I believe the press gives Toyota a relatively free ride on recalls,
> while publicizing any recall by a domestic manufacturer as if it was the
> end of the world.

Bullshit - how many Toyota recalls involved serious/deadly defects? Way
less than the D3. Personally, I don't know of any exploding Toyotas, but
maybe there were.
>
> 6) If you took any article on the Toyota Sludge problems and replaced
> "Toyota" with "Chevrolet" many Toyota apologists would immediately believe
> the article was accurate and than the sludge was totally GMs fault.

That's probably true - I think the press is too hard on D3. We can agree
there. It seems the recent failures were not just because of the vehicles,
but the gross mismanagement.
>
> 7) Toyota tries to cover-up evidence of problems. For a prime example read
> the documents on the NHTSA web site with regards to Tundra/Tacoma ball
> joint failures. Toyota restricts access to their service bulletins. Unlike
> the domestic manufacturers you can't go to Alldata and get a current list
> of Toyota TSBs. Unless you are willing to pay for access, there is no easy
> way to see if there is a TSB describing a problem with a Toyota. You can
> go to the NHTSA web site and search for TSB that describe "safety"
> problems, but unlike domestic manufacturers, Toyota tends to feel that
> only a very few TSBs decribe safety problems, so only a relatively few
> TSBs are listed there.

Yeah, and how many have died from that? Not that I don't believe what
you're saying, but what have been the results? Again, I would probably not
buy a Toyota truck anyway.
>
> Toyotas are over-priced compared to similar vehicles from other
> manufacturers (foreign and domestic)

No doubt. But I'd rather pay more to take it home than to keep it.
>
> 9) Toyota charges to much for replacement parts.

Absolutely, but see #8 response.
>
> 10) Toyota dealers tend to be less responsive than most other brands. I
> fell this is a result of Toyota recent marketing gains - too few dealers
> for the volume of cars being sold. Within 30 miles of where I set, there
> are 7 Ford dealers, 7 Chevrolet dealers and 3 Toyota dealers. When I was
> trying to buy a pick-up truck I found the local Toyota dealer to be
> impossible to deal with. They sometimes quoted low prices, but then under
> valued a trade in and tried to tack on ridiculous extra fees.

Yeah, one bad dealer, and you condemn all Toyota dealers? Ridiculous. A
bad dealer does not a bad car make.
>
>>>> Besides, we should have expected this, with gas prices steadily rising,
>>>> no matter what brand of truck.
>>>
>>> Absolutely. To a certain extent, the domestic manufacturers are victims
>>> of their own success. Trucks and SUVs were so profitable that they
>>> neglected car lines. However, as I have pointed out more than once
>>> Toyota has been following the exact same strategy. The only thing that
>>> is saving them is the ready availability of models designed for other
>>> markets that they can ship to the US. The most fuel efficient Toyota
>>> models are all imports. Some Corollas are assembled in North America,
>>> but that is a tired old design.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>> Agree on the Corolla, but I feel the same way about several of Toyota's
>> models (the ubiquitous Camry -*yawn*)
>>
>> But looks are only a *small* factor for me, when it comes to cars.
>>
>> Which may explain why I love my 2000 Echo.
>
> If it suits you, then what does it matter what I think. I liked Pintos (I
> owned 2). I often defend Pintos, particualrly when people who have never
> owned or driven a Pinto start using them as an example of a bad car. I
> don't lose a lot of sleep becasue some people contuinue to think Pintos
> were bad cars. You shouldn't lose any sleep becasue I don't think Echos
> are the apex of automotive developement. If there was only one "right"
> car, then things would be very boring.
>
> Ed
>

I'll accept that if you will.

Natalie
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

What exploding car myth are you talking about. It was dismissed cause a show
deliberately caused the explosion after many numerous attempts to make it so
through an actual car impact failed to make the gas tank explode. Any
vehicle can have their tank explode if you set charges to it.
"Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eurpnt.2m8.1@news.evilcabal.org...
>
> "C. E. White" <cewhite RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:bTeQh.20497$Jl.5377@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:eumojm.i4.1@news.evilcabal.org...
> >
> >> Well, I guess I'm a fool, and I doubt I'll ever "wise up" since their
> >> cars have always been great. Clearly it bothers you that the D3
are
> >> in trouble, or you wouldn't tout them so much on the Toyota NG.
> >
> > It bothers me that so many American have decided that no domestic
vehicles
> > are worthy of consideration. I know people who won't even consider a
> > domestic vehicle.There are 30 year old Americans who have never even
> > driven a domestic vehicle, yet they are willing to tout the superiority
of
> > foreign vehicles. It bothers me when I see my fellow Americans loosing
> > their jobs. It bothers me when Ford starts building cars in Mexico so
they
> > can compete on price. Maybe you don't know anyone who lost their
> > automotive job, but I do. It bothers me that Toyota was allowed to build
> > its business in a protected market while our government made rules that
in
> > the long run made the US domestic industry less competitive.
> >
> >> That's your right, of course, but I still resent that you think we're
> >> foolish to be happy with our cars. You are not living our lives, and
> >> cannot know what it's like to own our cars. It's insulting, and oh
yeah,
> >> condescending. I don't have a problem with your obvious bias against
> >> Toyotas, but please stop talking down to us, as though we are idiots.
> >
> > I never called you a fool or an idiot. I don't think I am superior to
you
> > (although I am sure we each know more about some things than the other
> > does). I do have my opinions and I don't mind sharing them. Naturally I
> > think they are well founded, but I have made a few mistakes in the past,
> > and may well make more mistakes in the future. If you find my
expressions
> > of my opinions condescending, maybe you need to figure out why someone
who
> > doesn't agree with your opinions bothers you so much. I certainly don't
> > lose any sleep when someone says bad things about my Nissan Frontier. I
> > may try to explain why I don't agree, but I won't accuse them of trying
to
> > insult me. I do dislike it when some people turn things into personal
> > attacks, but I try not to do that and I don't think I have ever made any
> > personal attacks against you. When someone makes what I believe is an
> > incorrect statement, then I will try to correct them. If someone
expresses
> > an opinion I don't agree with, then I don't mind expressing my divergent
> > opinion. This is not being condescending. Disagreeing with a person is
not
> > the same as calling them an idiot or talking down to them. If you don't
> > agree with someone and you keep you mouth shut, chances are they will
take
> > that as tacit agreement (even if it isn't). Mike Hunter might
justifiably
> > call me condescending, but I don't think you should.
>
> It's condescending to say we're being "fooled" for one And I, and others
on
> the Toyota NG have said multiple times that we think domestic car makers
do
> a good job with *certain types* of vehicles; large ones, for instance, but
> you keep saying we're refusing to see that we should have bought domestic
> instead. What I resent is someone who obviously has a bias against a
> product/subject, yet continues to troll those he knows do not agree with
> him. In that way, you're no different from Mike. Having said that, you
> only make yourself look like the boy who cried wolf most of the time. I
> guess it bothers me that you're so bitter about an effing car, for crying
> out loud.
>
> The one Subaru I ever owned was a total POS, yet I'd consider another in a
> heartbeat - why? Because I trust that "anecdotal evidence" you are so
fond
> of dismissing.
>
> And as for keeping my mouth shut, you should consider the same when
someone
> disputes your claims. If you can counterpoint, why can't those of us who
> are happy with our vehicles do the same? Sounds like a double standard to
> me.
>
> Your disagreeing with me is not the issue - plenty of others do on *many*
> subjects, so I have a fairly thick skin in that regard. It's your refusal
> to acknowledge that our opinions may be valid too.
> >
> > Here are some of my opinions on Toyota:
> >
> > 1) I believe Toyota has ands is still engaging in deceptive marketing
> > practices. The current Tundra ads are some of the most deceptive ads
I've
> > ever seen. The inflated horsepower numbers form a couple of years ago is
> > another example. Yet another is the deceptive loan practices of Toyota's
> > financing arm.
> >
>
> Like GM/Ford haven't? Puh-leeze. You have to take any marketing with a
> grain of salt, and seek your data elsewhere, including personal
experiences
> of yourself and others.
>
> > 2) I believe Toyota has "dumped" products on the US market in an attempt
> > to drive competitors out of business. They can write off development
costs
> > against vehicles sold in the relatively protected Japanese market and
then
> > sell low end vehicles in the US at less than US manufacturers can
develop
> > and manufacture competitive vehicles.
>
> Probably true, but so far their "trash" is way better than what I've tried
> to get domestically - I'm talking small cars only, since that's all I've
> ever bought.
> >
> > 3) I don't believe Toyota vehicles in general are significantly worse
than
> > other major manufacturer's products, but I don't think they are
> > significantly better either. I can't prove this, but I don't think you
can
> > prove the opposite. A collection of apocryphal stories is not data.
> >
>
> I trust that data to a point - hasn't failed me yet. When it does, I'll
let
> you know. Seriously.
>
> > 4) I have owned a Toyota. I know people who currently own Toyotas. I
> > regularly drive my SO's Toyota. I might even buy a Toyota some day. And
> > ironically I tried to talk my Sister into at least trying a Toyota when
> > she was car shopping (anything is better than a VW in my mind).
>
> And I've owned some really shitty other domestic cars, as have my
> friends/family. Late model (late 80s to present) have been nothing but
> headaches for them. Again, I'm talking *small* cars. Those with trucks,
> minivans, etc, are perfectly happy with them, which is why I would
consider
> *domestic first* with large vehicles.
> >
> > 5) I believe the press gives Toyota a relatively free ride on recalls,
> > while publicizing any recall by a domestic manufacturer as if it was the
> > end of the world.
>
> Bullshit - how many Toyota recalls involved serious/deadly defects? Way
> less than the D3. Personally, I don't know of any exploding Toyotas, but
> maybe there were.
> >
> > 6) If you took any article on the Toyota Sludge problems and replaced
> > "Toyota" with "Chevrolet" many Toyota apologists would immediately
believe
> > the article was accurate and than the sludge was totally GMs fault.
>
> That's probably true - I think the press is too hard on D3. We can agree
> there. It seems the recent failures were not just because of the
vehicles,
> but the gross mismanagement.
> >
> > 7) Toyota tries to cover-up evidence of problems. For a prime example
read
> > the documents on the NHTSA web site with regards to Tundra/Tacoma ball
> > joint failures. Toyota restricts access to their service bulletins.
Unlike
> > the domestic manufacturers you can't go to Alldata and get a current
list
> > of Toyota TSBs. Unless you are willing to pay for access, there is no
easy
> > way to see if there is a TSB describing a problem with a Toyota. You can
> > go to the NHTSA web site and search for TSB that describe "safety"
> > problems, but unlike domestic manufacturers, Toyota tends to feel that
> > only a very few TSBs decribe safety problems, so only a relatively few
> > TSBs are listed there.
>
> Yeah, and how many have died from that? Not that I don't believe what
> you're saying, but what have been the results? Again, I would probably
not
> buy a Toyota truck anyway.
> >
> > Toyotas are over-priced compared to similar vehicles from other
> > manufacturers (foreign and domestic)
>
> No doubt. But I'd rather pay more to take it home than to keep it.
> >
> > 9) Toyota charges to much for replacement parts.
>
> Absolutely, but see #8 response.
> >
> > 10) Toyota dealers tend to be less responsive than most other brands. I
> > fell this is a result of Toyota recent marketing gains - too few dealers
> > for the volume of cars being sold. Within 30 miles of where I set, there
> > are 7 Ford dealers, 7 Chevrolet dealers and 3 Toyota dealers. When I was
> > trying to buy a pick-up truck I found the local Toyota dealer to be
> > impossible to deal with. They sometimes quoted low prices, but then
under
> > valued a trade in and tried to tack on ridiculous extra fees.
>
> Yeah, one bad dealer, and you condemn all Toyota dealers? Ridiculous. A
> bad dealer does not a bad car make.
> >
> >>>> Besides, we should have expected this, with gas prices steadily
rising,
> >>>> no matter what brand of truck.
> >>>
> >>> Absolutely. To a certain extent, the domestic manufacturers are
victims
> >>> of their own success. Trucks and SUVs were so profitable that they
> >>> neglected car lines. However, as I have pointed out more than once
> >>> Toyota has been following the exact same strategy. The only thing that
> >>> is saving them is the ready availability of models designed for other
> >>> markets that they can ship to the US. The most fuel efficient Toyota
> >>> models are all imports. Some Corollas are assembled in North America,
> >>> but that is a tired old design.
> >>>
> >>> Ed
> >>>
> >> Agree on the Corolla, but I feel the same way about several of Toyota's
> >> models (the ubiquitous Camry -*yawn*)
> >>
> >> But looks are only a *small* factor for me, when it comes to cars.
> >>
> >> Which may explain why I love my 2000 Echo.
> >
> > If it suits you, then what does it matter what I think. I liked Pintos
(I
> > owned 2). I often defend Pintos, particualrly when people who have never
> > owned or driven a Pinto start using them as an example of a bad car. I
> > don't lose a lot of sleep becasue some people contuinue to think Pintos
> > were bad cars. You shouldn't lose any sleep becasue I don't think Echos
> > are the apex of automotive developement. If there was only one "right"
> > car, then things would be very boring.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
> I'll accept that if you will.
>
> Natalie
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

"razz" <razz.RemoveThis@mts.net> wrote in message
news:7TiQh.10126$YJ4.6750@newsfe23.lga...
> What exploding car myth are you talking about. It was dismissed cause a
> show
> deliberately caused the explosion after many numerous attempts to make it
> so
> through an actual car impact failed to make the gas tank explode. Any
> vehicle can have their tank explode if you set charges to it.


*snip*

http://www.crownvictoriasafetyalert.com/

I remember reading about and seeing this on the news this a long time ago -
in real newspapers, with real cops and their survivors describing the
tragedies.

Natalie
 >> Stay informed about: GM, Ford sales seen down in March as trucks falter 

"Wickeddoll®" <wickeddoll1958diespammersdie RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in
message news:eurpnt.2m8.1@news.evilcabal.org...

> It's condescending to say we're being "fooled" for one

Did I ever say you were fooled? I said "I don't think Toyota can fool
all of the people all of the time."

> And I, and others on the Toyota NG have said multiple times that we
> think domestic car makers do a good job with *certain types* of
> vehicles; large ones, for instance, but you keep saying we're
> refusing to see that we should have bought domestic instead.

I never said this.

> What I resent is someone who obviously has a bias against a
> product/subject, yet continues to troll those he knows do not agree
> with him.

Expressing my opinion is not "trolling."

> In that way, you're no different from Mike. Having said that, you
> only make yourself look like the boy who cried wolf most of the
> time. I guess it bothers me that you're so bitter about an effing
> car, for crying out loud.

Expressing an opinion does not mean I am bitter. Sometimes I agree
with Mike Hunter, sometimes I don't. It does bother me when I see
people trash the domestic brands - particularly people who haven't
owned a domestic vehicle in decades. Between myself and my immediate
family members we have owned Domestic, Japanese, English, and German
Cars. I've personally owned 5 Japanese vehicles - 2 Nissans (280Z,
Frontier), 1 Toyota (Cressida), 2 Mazdas (626, Courier). I am not
wedded to the Domestic Car Industry, but I do feel that the opinion of
the population has been conditioned to think Toyotas are somehow far
better than other cars and I don't think this is true. If I strongly
think false impression are being promulgated do you think I should
just sit there and let it go?

> The one Subaru I ever owned was a total POS, yet I'd consider
> another in a heartbeat - why? Because I trust that "anecdotal
> evidence" you are so fond of dismissing.

It seems like you are dismissing the "anecdotal evidence" (your own
"anecdotal evidence") since you are willing to buy another Subaru.
Besides I said multiple times I would actually consider buying a
Toyota. Sounds like we have the same sort of opinion.

> And as for keeping my mouth shut, you should consider the same when
> someone disputes your claims. If you can counterpoint, why can't
> those of us who are happy with our vehicles do the same? Sounds
> like a double standard to me.

I've never suggested that you should keep your mouth shut.

> Your disagreeing with me is not the issue - plenty of others do on
> *many* subjects, so I have a fairly thick skin in that regard. It's
> your refusal to acknowledge that our opinions may be valid too.

When did I say your opinions were not valid? Opinions are opinions,
not facts. Third parties can agree with them or not. When possible I
try to provide facts to support my opinions. I can't always do that.
And sometimes I don't agree with facts provided by others.

>> Here are some of my opinions on Toyota:
>>
>> 1) I believe Toyota has ands is still engaging in deceptive
>> marketing practices. The current Tundra ads are some of the most
>> deceptive ads I've ever seen. The inflated horsepower numbers form
>> a couple of years ago is another example. Yet another is the
>> deceptive loan practices of Toyota's financing arm.
>>
>
> Like GM/Ford haven't? Puh-leeze. You have to take any marketing
> with a grain of salt, and seek your data elsewhere, including
> personal experiences of yourself and others.

I have never seen a Ford or GM or Dodge or Nissan or Mazda truck ad as
deliberately deceptive as the current crop of Tundra ads. There is a
clear attempt to deceive here. This is my opinion. You are certainly
free to disagree. Certainly all manufacturers run ads that emphasize
the "goodness" or their products and even cross over into gray areas
to make a point. An example of a gray area ad is the current GMC Truck
ad where they show a HD truck pulling a train. I am sure this really
happened, but I am also sure that the truck would not be able to pull
the train for long (especially if an uphill grade was involved). I
don't think anyone seeing this ad thinks that GMC trucks are suitable
locomotive replacements. On the other hand, the Toyota see-saw ad is a
blatant attempt to deceive. They don't actually lie, and they cover
themselves with type that is too small for me to read, but for the
typical Joe watching the ad, they create the impression that a Tundra
can tow a 10,000 lb trailer up a steep incline and then stop in on the
opposite incline. In fact the trailer itself only weighed around 5,000
lbs and it had electric trailer brakes, so the trailer literally
stopped itself.

>> 2) I believe Toyota has "dumped" products on the US market in an
>> attempt to drive competitors out of business. They can write off
>> development costs against vehicles sold in the relatively protected
>> Japanese market and then sell low end vehicles in the US at less
>> than US manufacturers can develop and manufacture competitive
>> vehicles.
>
> Probably true, but so far their "trash" is way better than what I've
> tried to get domestically - I'm talking small cars only, since
> that's all I've ever bought.

You are missing the point. By allowing Toyota to dump small cars here,
the US goverment eliminated the incentive for domestic manufacturers
to build good small cars. Ford or GM or Chysler weren't going to pour
millions and millions into developing small cars that were going to
loose money.

>> 3) I don't believe Toyota vehicles in general are significantly
>> worse than other major manufacturer's products, but I don't think
>> they are significantly better either. I can't prove this, but I
>> don't think you can prove the opposite. A collection of apocryphal
>> stories is not data.
>>
>
> I trust that data to a point - hasn't failed me yet. When it does,
> I'll let you know. Seriously.
>
>> 4) I have owned a Toyota. I know people who currently own Toyotas.
>> I regularly drive my SO's Toyota. I might even buy a Toyota some
>> day. And ironically I tried to talk my Sister into at least trying
>> a Toyota when she was car shopping (anything is better than a VW in
>> my mind).
>
> And I've owned some really shitty other domestic cars, as have my
> friends/family. Late model (late 80s to present) have been nothing
> but headaches for them. Again, I'm talking *small* cars. Those
> with trucks, minivans, etc, are perfectly happy with them, which is
> why I would consider *domestic first* with large vehicles.
>>
>> 5) I believe the press gives Toyota a relatively free ride on
>> recalls, while publicizing any recall by a domestic manufacturer as
>> if it was the end of the world.
>
> Bullshit - how many Toyota recalls involved serious/deadly defects?
> Way less than the D3. Personally, I don't know of any exploding
> Toyotas, but maybe there were.

You don't think Tundra front suspensions collapsing is a serious
problem?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_ball_joints.html

Toyota consistently down played the seriousness of this problem. NHTSA
recieved numerous complaints about this problem, including reports of
injuries and a death. At first Toyota said it wasn't a problem, then
it wasn't their problem, then it was the Customer's problem, finally
they recalled the vehicles "voluntarily" (after being threaten with a
forced recall).

How about Tacomas with leaky fuel systems?

http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/toyota/toyota_tacoma.htm

How about Tundra brake lines being cut by the exhaust system. I
suppose that isn't problem either?

http://www.lemonauto.com/complaints/toyota/toyota_tundra.htm

There are many others, Camry sub frames, Celica fuel tanks, Camry air
bags, Sienna fuel tanks, etc., etc., etc.

>> 6) If you took any article on the Toyota Sludge problems and
>> replaced "Toyota" with "Chevrolet" many Toyota apologists would
>> immediately believe the article was accurate and than the sludge
>> was totally GMs fault.
>
> That's probably true - I think the press is too hard on D3. We can
> agree there. It seems the recent failures were not just because of
> the vehicles, but the gross mismanagement.
>>
>> 7) Toyota tries to cover-up evidence of problems. For a prime
>> example read the documents on the NHTSA web site with regards to
>> Tundra/Tacoma ball joint failures. Toyota restricts access to their
>> service bulletins. Unlike the domestic manufacturers you can't go
>> to Alldata and get a current list of Toyota TSBs. Unless you are
>> willing to pay for access, there is no easy way to see if there is
>> a TSB describing a problem with a Toyota. You can go to the NHTSA
>> web site and search for TSB that describe "safety" problems, but
>> unlike domestic manufacturers, Toyota tends to feel that only a
>> very few TSBs decribe safety problems, so only a relatively few
>> TSBs are listed there.
>
> Yeah, and how many have died from that? Not that I don't believe
> what you're saying, but what have been the results? Again, I would
> probably not buy a Toyota truck anyway.

The number that died depends on who is counting. Toyota says none. I
estimate (based on NHTSA compaints) that there have been 16 people
injured and 1 killed as a result of Tundra ball joint failures
(Tacomas and Sequoias are also involved but not counted).

>> Toyotas are over-priced compared to similar vehicles from other
>> manufacturers (foreign and domestic)
>
> No doubt. But I'd rather pay more to take it home than to keep it.

This is another of the things that bug me. People who buy Toyota often
acknowledge that they are more expensive, but then they claim that the
cars are cheaper to own because either the depreciation is less or the
cost of repairs and maintenance is less. In my opinion, depreciation
is irrelevant unless you are trading cars every 2 or 3 years. A 12
year old Toyota with 200,000 miles isn't worth significantly more than
a 12 year old Ford with 200,000 miles. As for repair costs, I can only
go by the experiences of people that I am close to (family and close
friends). The three most "repaired" vehicles owned by my family and
friends in the last 20 years were 1) my sons 1995 Firebird ($1200 in
total repairs, but the car had 200,000 miles and he burned out the
clutch doing stupid things), 2) my SO's 1998 Plymouth Van ($700 for a
burned valve, and it did get hauled away with a bad transmission after
9 years and 200,000 miles - still she got $500 for it), 3) my Sisters
1991 VW Passat ($1100 to replace a head damaged when the timing belt
broke). My parents have owned nothing but Fords for 50 years. In the
last 30 I doubt they spent $2000 on repairs for all of the Fords
combined. So I am having a hard time seeing where spending $2,000 more
for a Toyota to save at the most $1200 is reasonable.

>> 9) Toyota charges to much for replacement parts.
>
> Absolutely, but see #8 response.

OK, see my response to #8. All three of the biggest repair bills I
quoted can be attributed to abuse (for the Firebird, bad teenage
driver, for the van poor routine maintenance and towing a 21 foot sail
boat down I-95, for the Passat, poor maintenance). Toyotas aren't
immune to abuse or poor maintenance. When they fail for these reasons,
the repair costs are greater (in my opinion).

>> 10) Toyota dealers tend to be less responsive than most other
>> brands