Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information

DC wrote:
> "The term '351 Cleveland' refers to a unique series of 351
> cubic inch passenger car production engines built using
> advanced engine block and cylinder head castings first
> produced at Ford's Cleveland, Ohio plant. The term
> 'Cleveland' is appended to the engine displacement in order
> to distinguish the 351C from Ford's 351 'Windsor', an
> entirely different engine..."
>
> Continued: http://snipr.com/351Cengines
>


I owned a 1970 Torino GT, 351C, M code, factory 4bbl engine with FMX
automatic.
You have the compression ratio listed as 10.5:1.
I distinctly remember my car at the time listed as 11.5:1 compression.
It was a Sunoco 260 drinker or nothing.. ping city. Owners manual said a
min. of 100 octane gas.

Steve
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

DC wrote:
> "The term '351 Cleveland' refers to a unique series of 351
> cubic inch passenger car production engines built using
> advanced engine block and cylinder head castings first
> produced at Ford's Cleveland, Ohio plant. The term
> 'Cleveland' is appended to the engine displacement in order
> to distinguish the 351C from Ford's 351 'Windsor', an
> entirely different engine..."
>
> Continued: http://snipr.com/351Cengines
>

The ports in the 1970 351C 4bbl factory heads were not tuned for typical
street or daily driver use.
My solution was to replace the stock intake manifold with an Edlebrock
model with runners tuned for typical street seen RPM
range and a 4 barrel Holley with vac secondaries, resulting in a +3 MPG
increase as a daily driver.

Car was a 70 Torino GT 351C, 4bbl, FMX automatic, standard ratio 9 inch
rear, Delta kit CD ignition system,
edlebrock intake, Doug Thorley headers, edlebrock vacuum controlled
water injection system (used when 100 octane gas was no longer available)
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

Steve Stone wrote:
> DC wrote:
>> "The term '351 Cleveland' refers to a unique series of 351 cubic inch
>> passenger car production engines built using advanced engine block and
>> cylinder head castings first produced at Ford's Cleveland, Ohio plant.
>> The term 'Cleveland' is appended to the engine displacement in order
>> to distinguish the 351C from Ford's 351 'Windsor', an entirely
>> different engine..."
>>
>> Continued: http://snipr.com/spammer
>>
>
>
> I owned a 1970 Torino GT, 351C, M code, factory 4bbl engine with FMX
> automatic.
> You have the compression ratio listed as 10.5:1.
> I distinctly remember my car at the time listed as 11.5:1 compression.
> It was a Sunoco 260 drinker or nothing.. ping city. Owners manual said a
> min. of 100 octane gas.
>
> Steve

You are replying to an eBay spammer.

--
"Boy, I've spent my adult life dealing with people like you.
There are few things that intimidate me; and a
post-adolescent, semi-literate cretin ain't one of them." - LSP972
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

"disston" wrote in message

> >
>> The ports in the 1970 351C 4bbl factory heads were not tuned for typical
>> street or daily driver use.
>> My solution was to replace the stock intake manifold with an Edlebrock
>> model with runners tuned for typical street seen RPM
>> range and a 4 barrel Holley with vac secondaries, resulting in a +3 MPG
>> increase as a daily driver.
>>
>
> Maybe the Eldebrock carb was not availible when you did this but today
> I'd go with the E carb. Copy of the Carter AFB and a better design,
> IMHO. You might find 5 bbl intakes on an old station wagon. But the E
> manifold is better, again IMHO. If you have 4bbl heads consider making
> it a trak car only. The 4bbl heads have Very Large valves. You prolly
> need to lower the compression. Thicker gaskets should still be
> availible. I've heard the water injection works too but prolly not as
> good as getting the compression in line with modern gas. Then again
> how long will we have "modern gas"?
>
> When you have a car with a Cleveland engine you basically have a
> Cleveland car. It can be changed to the Windsor family but is a lot of
> work.
>
> Had one years ago. Still my favorite. And yes I'm a Ford guy.
>
> disston

I always loved the idea of getting a 351c motor for a Mustang project. I was
wondering however did they ever make a roller motor 351c? Also what years
would be best to look into? Wasn't the 1971 351c modified to be a Boss 351?
How did they differ from the 400c? What aftermarket is there for these
motors? I noticed Australlia has a better market then the USA for the
Clevelands, can you recommend vendors in either country? Anything particular
you might recommend aftermarket? What does it respond best too? Such as the
aluminum heads? Thanks.

Nick
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

> I always loved the idea of getting a 351c motor for a Mustang project.

Right away you are talking about converting a Windsor car to a
Cleveland. If you have an old Mustang it would prolly be best to stick
with what it was built with. Just get a bigger Windsor. If your Stang
allready has a Cleveland motor then you are set. I don't remember all
that has to be changed but try exhaust, engine crossover, mounts,
transmission, radiator. I never did this job but Melvin the everyday
mechanic at an outdoor lot I used to use would complain for days about
having to do this.


I was
> wondering however did they ever make a roller motor 351c?

Don't know but if they did it is rare. By roller motor do you mean
needle bearing rocker? They might be availible. Plenty of info on the
web if you are serious.

>Also what years
> would be best to look into? Wasn't the 1971 351c modified to be a Boss 351?

I think when Ford "modifies" an engine it is a different ball game
than when any of us "modify" anything.

> How did they differ from the 400c? What aftermarket is there for these
> motors? I noticed Australlia has a better market then the USA for the
> Clevelands, can you recommend vendors in either country? Anything particular
> you might recommend aftermarket? What does it respond best too? Such as the
> aluminum heads? Thanks.
>
> Nick- Hide quoted text -

Cleveland motors are really neat. A lot of them got used for years by
the drag racers. May still be using them.
If you want one look for a Merc XR7 or some LTD's. Mine was in a '74
LTD II and prolly rare because there were supposed to not be any after
'72.

If you have the money you can build anything, fix anything.

disston
World Famous Bench Racer, retired
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

In article
,
disston wrote:

> >
> > The ports in the 1970 351C 4bbl factory heads were not tuned for typical
> > street or daily driver use.

Well, sort of. "Typical" is an ambiguous word in an era of big
horsepower cars and daily street light confrontations. The target buyer
was the performance buff who understood that the 4V version was a good
basis for modifications. The 4V worked very well with deeper gearing
and stick shifts.

> > My solution was to replace the stock intake manifold with an Edlebrock
> > model with runners tuned for typical street seen RPM
> > range and a 4 barrel Holley with vac secondaries, resulting in a +3 MPG
> > increase as a daily driver.

If the goal was to increase gas mileage, then a swap to 2V heads
would have been a better plan.

> >
>
> Maybe the Eldebrock carb was not availible when you did this but today
> I'd go with the E carb. Copy of the Carter AFB and a better design,
> IMHO.

The current AVS series would be best in that brand, but a well-tuned
Holley would be better still.

> You might find 5 bbl intakes on an old station wagon.

Assuming you meant 4 bbl, I'd bet you that nearly every wagon that
had an actual 351 Cleveland in it had a 2V from the factory.

> But the E
> manifold is better, again IMHO. If you have 4bbl heads consider making
> it a trak car only.

I don't think the original poster still has his Torino. But,
relegating the 4V solely to the dragstrip is a little off the mark. As
I inferred above, conservative gearing and automatics are not friendly
to this engine. I own a '70 Torino GT with the M-code Cleve. It has a
stick and a 3.50 Trak-Lok. It's very driveable around town.

> The 4bbl heads have Very Large valves. You prolly
> need to lower the compression. Thicker gaskets should still be
> availible.

Old school thnking. Increasing the quench distancee on a high
compression engine (11:1 Ford-rated, BTW) will guarantee detonation.
Better to have higher compression and a tight quench than lower
compression and a wide quench in a performance engine.

> I've heard the water injection works too but prolly not as
> good as getting the compression in line with modern gas.

Aside from cooling the intake charge, water injection will
eventually burn the carbon buildup off the combustion chambers and the
tops of the pistons, thus lowering the actual compression ratio. Of
course, some of this can be done in your driveway.

> Then again
> how long will we have "modern gas"?

I predict that, as long as Taco Bell is in business, people will
continue to get gas.

>
> When you have a car with a Cleveland engine you basically have a
> Cleveland car.

Uh. Hmm. Philosphy Major?

> It can be changed to the Windsor family but is a lot of
> work.

Well, let's see. The exhaust's H-pipe has to be cut and narrowed a
little and the headpipes matched up to the W's manifolds. The oil
pressure sender wire has to be lengthened. Same trans. Same engine
mounts. That's not a lot of work.

>
> Had one years ago. Still my favorite. And yes I'm a Ford guy.

OK, but if you start using the word "probably" instead of the
non-word "prolly", nobody will mistake you for a Chevy guy.
>
> disston

--
CobraJet
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

In article
,
disston wrote:

> > I always loved the idea of getting a 351c motor for a Mustang project.
>
> Right away you are talking about converting a Windsor car to a
> Cleveland. If you have an old Mustang it would prolly be best to stick
> with what it was built with. Just get a bigger Windsor. If your Stang
> allready has a Cleveland motor then you are set. I don't remember all
> that has to be changed but try exhaust, engine crossover, mounts,
> transmission, radiator. I never did this job but Melvin the everyday
> mechanic at an outdoor lot I used to use would complain for days about
> having to do this.

I just covered this in my previous post. The exhaust is the only
expense. Mounts and trannies are the same. Radiators: Cleveland cars
have the water inlet on the pump on the driver's side. So do 70-up
Windsor cars. If the Windsor being transplanted has a '69-only
passenger-inlet pump, then you just swap the later pump onto it.

If Melvin made a big deal about this, then he was stroking you for
compliments and/or sympathy.

>
>
> I was
> > wondering however did they ever make a roller motor 351c?
>
> Don't know but if they did it is rare. By roller motor do you mean
> needle bearing rocker? They might be availible. Plenty of info on the
> web if you are serious.

C'mon. Roller motors didn't arrive until the 80's. The last Cleve
was made in '74.

>
> >Also what years
> > would be best to look into? Wasn't the 1971 351c modified to be a Boss 351?

*A* version of the 4V was the Boss 351, yes. Only available in Boss
351 model Mustangs. Good luck finding one. Which Cleve you should look
for depends on your goal for the car.

>
> I think when Ford "modifies" an engine it is a different ball game
> than when any of us "modify" anything.

Huh?
>
> > How did they differ from the 400c? What aftermarket is there for these
> > motors? I noticed Australlia has a better market then the USA for the
> > Clevelands, can you recommend vendors in either country? Anything particular
> > you might recommend aftermarket? What does it respond best too? Such as the
> > aluminum heads? Thanks.

The best info for the Cleveland is found here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

> >
> > Nick- Hide quoted text -
>
> Cleveland motors are really neat. A lot of them got used for years by
> the drag racers. May still be using them.
> If you want one look for a Merc XR7 or some LTD's. Mine was in a '74
> LTD II and prolly rare because there were supposed to not be any after
> '72.

Not rare. In common production until the end of the '74 model year.

>
> If you have the money you can build anything, fix anything.

You ARE a Philosophy Major!

>
> disston
> World Famous Bench Racer, retired

You need a new bench to keep up.

--
CobraJet
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

im reading these posts from Australia. I thought i would let you know a
little bit about the clevland Block. Ford Australia took all the castings of
the clevland from the states in about 73 and used them up to 1984 when they
decided Austrlia no longer needed a V8. fortunatly they came to there senses
9 years later and started to import the windsor again. (only in 302 though).
Having being around for another ten years or so there a lot of after market
parts avaliable here including fantastic alloy heads etc.

"CobraJet" wrote in message

> In article
> ,
> disston wrote:
>
>> > I always loved the idea of getting a 351c motor for a Mustang project.
>>
>> Right away you are talking about converting a Windsor car to a
>> Cleveland. If you have an old Mustang it would prolly be best to stick
>> with what it was built with. Just get a bigger Windsor. If your Stang
>> allready has a Cleveland motor then you are set. I don't remember all
>> that has to be changed but try exhaust, engine crossover, mounts,
>> transmission, radiator. I never did this job but Melvin the everyday
>> mechanic at an outdoor lot I used to use would complain for days about
>> having to do this.
>
> I just covered this in my previous post. The exhaust is the only
> expense. Mounts and trannies are the same. Radiators: Cleveland cars
> have the water inlet on the pump on the driver's side. So do 70-up
> Windsor cars. If the Windsor being transplanted has a '69-only
> passenger-inlet pump, then you just swap the later pump onto it.
>
> If Melvin made a big deal about this, then he was stroking you for
> compliments and/or sympathy.
>
>>
>>
>> I was
>> > wondering however did they ever make a roller motor 351c?
>>
>> Don't know but if they did it is rare. By roller motor do you mean
>> needle bearing rocker? They might be availible. Plenty of info on the
>> web if you are serious.
>
> C'mon. Roller motors didn't arrive until the 80's. The last Cleve
> was made in '74.
>
>>
>> >Also what years
>> > would be best to look into? Wasn't the 1971 351c modified to be a Boss
>> > 351?
>
> *A* version of the 4V was the Boss 351, yes. Only available in Boss
> 351 model Mustangs. Good luck finding one. Which Cleve you should look
> for depends on your goal for the car.
>
>>
>> I think when Ford "modifies" an engine it is a different ball game
>> than when any of us "modify" anything.
>
> Huh?
>>
>> > How did they differ from the 400c? What aftermarket is there for these
>> > motors? I noticed Australlia has a better market then the USA for the
>> > Clevelands, can you recommend vendors in either country? Anything
>> > particular
>> > you might recommend aftermarket? What does it respond best too? Such as
>> > the
>> > aluminum heads? Thanks.
>
> The best info for the Cleveland is found here:
>
> http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/
>
>> >
>> > Nick- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> Cleveland motors are really neat. A lot of them got used for years by
>> the drag racers. May still be using them.
>> If you want one look for a Merc XR7 or some LTD's. Mine was in a '74
>> LTD II and prolly rare because there were supposed to not be any after
>> '72.
>
> Not rare. In common production until the end of the '74 model year.
>
>>
>> If you have the money you can build anything, fix anything.
>
> You ARE a Philosophy Major!
>
>>
>> disston
>> World Famous Bench Racer, retired
>
> You need a new bench to keep up.
>
> --
> CobraJet
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

"Danny Leighton" writes:

> im reading these posts from Australia. I thought i would let you know a
> little bit about the clevland Block. Ford Australia took all the castings of
> the clevland from the states in about 73 and used them up to 1984 when they
> decided Austrlia no longer needed a V8. fortunatly they came to there senses
> 9 years later and started to import the windsor again. (only in 302 though).
> Having being around for another ten years or so there a lot of after market
> parts avaliable here including fantastic alloy heads etc.

There was also this Australia specific 302C (yes 302 Cleveland). It
was a destroked 351C. It had a different crank and longer rods. It is
also the source of the much sought after closed chamber 2V heads,
which has the good ports of the 2V heads and the good quench chambers
of the early 4V heads.

I have a set of these heads on my Pantera, which incidently came with
an Australian 2V 351C from the factory.
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:28:33 GMT, Thomas Tornblom
wrote:

>"Danny Leighton" writes:
>
>> im reading these posts from Australia. I thought i would let you know a
>> little bit about the clevland Block. Ford Australia took all the castings of
>> the clevland from the states in about 73 and used them up to 1984 when they
>> decided Austrlia no longer needed a V8. fortunatly they came to there senses
>> 9 years later and started to import the windsor again. (only in 302 though).
>> Having being around for another ten years or so there a lot of after market
>> parts avaliable here including fantastic alloy heads etc.
>
>There was also this Australia specific 302C (yes 302 Cleveland). It
>was a destroked 351C. It had a different crank and longer rods. It is
>also the source of the much sought after closed chamber 2V heads,
>which has the good ports of the 2V heads and the good quench chambers
>of the early 4V heads.
>
>I have a set of these heads on my Pantera, which incidently came with
>an Australian 2V 351C from the factory.


Something like the BOSS 302, perhaps???
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:28:33 GMT, Thomas Tornblom
wrote:

>"Danny Leighton" writes:
>
>> im reading these posts from Australia. I thought i would let you know a
>> little bit about the clevland Block. Ford Australia took all the castings of
>> the clevland from the states in about 73 and used them up to 1984 when they
>> decided Austrlia no longer needed a V8. fortunatly they came to there senses
>> 9 years later and started to import the windsor again. (only in 302 though).
>> Having being around for another ten years or so there a lot of after market
>> parts avaliable here including fantastic alloy heads etc.
>
>There was also this Australia specific 302C (yes 302 Cleveland). It
>was a destroked 351C. It had a different crank and longer rods. It is
>also the source of the much sought after closed chamber 2V heads,
>which has the good ports of the 2V heads and the good quench chambers
>of the early 4V heads.
>
>I have a set of these heads on my Pantera, which incidently came with
>an Australian 2V 351C from the factory.
The BOSS 302 used the Windsor block with Cleveland heads, so I guess
it was not related to the 302C. I knew there was some Cleveland
ancestry - so I went and looked it up to be sure.
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

"Thomas Tornblom" wrote in message

> "Danny Leighton" writes:
>
>> im reading these posts from Australia. I thought i would let you know a
>> little bit about the clevland Block. Ford Australia took all the castings
>> of
>> the clevland from the states in about 73 and used them up to 1984 when
>> they
>> decided Austrlia no longer needed a V8. fortunatly they came to there
>> senses
>> 9 years later and started to import the windsor again. (only in 302
>> though).
>> Having being around for another ten years or so there a lot of after
>> market
>> parts avaliable here including fantastic alloy heads etc.
>
> There was also this Australia specific 302C (yes 302 Cleveland). It
> was a destroked 351C. It had a different crank and longer rods. It is
> also the source of the much sought after closed chamber 2V heads,
> which has the good ports of the 2V heads and the good quench chambers
> of the early 4V heads.
>
> I have a set of these heads on my Pantera, which incidently came with
> an Australian 2V 351C from the factory.

yes that is true,but unfortunatly using the 302 heads in either 4v or 2v
would increase compression to much for the fuels avalible at the standard
pump. the 4v heads used on the falcon Gt's of the time were the most sought
after here. here is a fact that you may not know, the Australian 1971 Ford
Falcon GTHO with 351 cleveland and 4v heads was the fastest 4 door sedan in
the world, at that time.
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information 

clare DeleteThis @snyder.on.ca writes:

> On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:28:33 GMT, Thomas Tornblom
> wrote:
>
>>"Danny Leighton" writes:
>>
>>> im reading these posts from Australia. I thought i would let you know a
>>> little bit about the clevland Block. Ford Australia took all the castings of
>>> the clevland from the states in about 73 and used them up to 1984 when they
>>> decided Austrlia no longer needed a V8. fortunatly they came to there senses
>>> 9 years later and started to import the windsor again. (only in 302 though).
>>> Having being around for another ten years or so there a lot of after market
>>> parts avaliable here including fantastic alloy heads etc.
>>
>>There was also this Australia specific 302C (yes 302 Cleveland). It
>>was a destroked 351C. It had a different crank and longer rods. It is
>>also the source of the much sought after closed chamber 2V heads,
>>which has the good ports of the 2V heads and the good quench chambers
>>of the early 4V heads.
>>
>>I have a set of these heads on my Pantera, which incidently came with
>>an Australian 2V 351C from the factory.
>
>
> Something like the BOSS 302, perhaps???

No, the 302 BOSS was based on a windsor block with what became the
351C heads.

The 302 Cleveland was based on a 351C block.

See:
http://www.aus-ford-uk.co.uk/html/engines2.html

this article says it had shorter rods. This is wrong, it had longer
rods with the shorter stroke.
 >> Stay informed about: Ford 351C Cleveland engines - key facts & information