Ethanol conversion?

On May 13, 9:04 am, "Dominic Richens" <k....DeleteThis@storm.ca> wrote:


> Ethanol as a fuel is great, except that it is more expensive to produce than
> straight gasoline.  By "expensive" I mean compared to the 100:1 ratio of
> gasoline, in terms of energy you get for energy you put into making it.
> Pimental says it's less than 1:1, but his "studies" are weighted to say
> that.  Even if it was 10:1, it's still way more expensive that gasoline.  If
> society as a whole was able to reduce it's liquid energy consumption by 10
> fold we might be okay - but current energy policies of the western world are
> not going to make that happen anytime soon.
>
If you Google that question, you'll find the Pimental is alone in that
contention. Many studies after his refute it. The ratio is 1.67:1
even for corn. For sugar cane, it is 8:1. Brazil has been using it
for thirty years, now without subsidies.

In fact, it is gasoline which costs more to produce than you get back
from it, according to Robert Zubrin's book. Where do you get that
100:1 figure?
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

"Uncle Ben" <ben.TakeThisOut@greenba.com> wrote:
>
>> this is a coupla years old, but still has a lot of good points;
>
> http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.h...
>
> The article's main points against ethanol are (1) it causes smog, (2)
> it costs more energy to make it than you get back, and (3) E85 is very
> inefficient. I believe all three are wrong.

well, it is businessweek. If it were, say, Nature, New Scientist or even
Scientific American it would probably say something quite different.

Ethanol as a fuel is great, except that it is more expensive to produce than
straight gasoline. By "expensive" I mean compared to the 100:1 ratio of
gasoline, in terms of energy you get for energy you put into making it.
Pimental says it's less than 1:1, but his "studies" are weighted to say
that. Even if it was 10:1, it's still way more expensive that gasoline. If
society as a whole was able to reduce it's liquid energy consumption by 10
fold we might be okay - but current energy policies of the western world are
not going to make that happen anytime soon.

--
Dominic Richens | knob.TakeThisOut@storm.ca
"If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On Sun, 11 May 2008 12:46:45 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot
canada <clare> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 2008 06:19:57 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben.RemoveThis@greenba.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>> But this water thing -- could thatr be what was behind the fact that
>>> my car stalled in traffic right around when I switched to an ethanol
>>> blend? (Took it to the mechanic, who spent all day looking at it and
>>> couldn't find anything wrong)- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>If your car is not an old classic, it should have been made to accept
>>E10, and I have no idea why it stalled. I doubt that you filled up
>>with E85, so I won't speculate about dissolving varnish and clogging
>>your fuel filter. In short, I have no idea. It might be that
>>something entirely different caused the problem.
>>
>>If you are adventurous, you might try to repeat the experience in the
>>interest of science. Good luck!


THe main reason I thought of it was that the weather had been all over
the place that week
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

L. Ross Raszewski wrote:

> Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
> and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.

???

I get about 10% less mpg with 10% ethanol. Some of that is
temperature.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

For decades now and all small, foreign, fuel efficient (relatively)
cars, I have noticed a 10-15 per cent drop in mileage to the point
that most of the time without knowing the exact dates, I could tell
the gas station they had started the winter blend. I have had people
wash this off with assertions it was just colder, and of course that
should play a small part in the scenario, but warm periods in the
winter never seemed to make a difference in this decrease in mileage.
Only the end of winter gas improved things. The more fuel efficient
in summer, the higher the percentage lower, generally.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On May 17, 12:06 am, -rick- <nob... DeleteThis @home.nut> wrote:

> I get about 10% less mpg with 10% ethanol.  Some of that is
> temperature.

That is curious. For a week recently I ran E29 (29% ethanol) in my
1999 OB 2.5L and got 15% less mpg. That's a mild disappointment, but
I'm still saving money, because I pay about $3.00 per gallon of E85
I'm mixing in, and gasoline costs about $4.00 per gallon. Down 15%
and up 25%

So I don't think the mpg penality is linear with the concentration.
There is more to learn about this.

Now I'm running E60 (on my way to straight E85). This is after
installing a flex-fuel converter. I'm eager to find out how it works
out. More info in the thread "E85 - experience."

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On May 8, 3:18 pm, Dano58 <dan.dibi... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b... DeleteThis @greenba.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
> > much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief.  (In
> > fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
> > prevent our huge use of gasoline.)  Further, if we are at or near
> > "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
> > down.  Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
> > we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
> > us.
>
> > So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
> > gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
> > where I live.  It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
> > racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
> > of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
> > gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
> > true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
> > rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>
> > One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
> > use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
> > enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
> > One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
> > injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
> > it.
>
> > What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
> > his car?  I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
> > the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
> > convert?
>
> DO NOT just dump a tankful of E85 in your car! Seehttp://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php The major issue
> they discuss is a potential increase in emissions (which could be a
> felony). The ethanol content can also dry out any rubber hoses are
> seals over time, leading to all sorts of issues with leakage.
>
> Dan D
> '99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
> Central NJ USA- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It was May 7th that I started this thread asking the question what
would happen if I did as Dano58 said not to do: just fill up my
unconverted 1999 OB with E85 and ran it. Since then I have learned a
lot from reading and from experimenting.

The National Ethanol Vehcle Coalition has this www.E85.com webpage
that Dano58 refers to, and it does warn against filling with E85
without conversion. Moreover it says that no conversit kit has been
approved by the EPA.

That warning is obsolete. The EPA Memorandum 1A dates from 1997 and
discusses the interpretation of a 1974 memorandum warning that
alteration of a vehicle's emission control system with the intent to
evade that control is punishable by law. In 2008, however, the EPA
approved one conversion kit, Full Flex, that permits any fuel between
pure gasoline and pure ethanol to burn in a car without lighting the
MIL (CEL). That makes it pass New York's inspection.

The NEVC also states that conversion is very difficult. I have made
this conversion on my car. If the fuel injector connectors are wthin
easy reach, the conversion takes 5 minutes. It took me longer,
because the Subaru boxer engine has its fuel injectors very hard to
get at.

What the conversion does is to insert a control box in the electrical
feed to the fuel injectors so as to lengthen the pulse from the ECU to
the injectors and thus increase the richness of the fuel mixture.
Ethanol has oxygen chemically included in it, with the result that
there is too much oxygen in the normal car's mixture, causing the MIL
to come on. The box does is to extend the range of mixtures that the
ECU can create, solving that problem.

If one ignores this problem, what happens is that the mixture burns
hotter than normal. If pure gasoline were to burn hotter than normal,
NOx emissions would result with bad effects on the atmosphere.
Ethanol, however, burns much cooler than gasoline. I would like to
see test results on the emissions of an engine burning ethanol too
lean.

If one's car is very old -- 1950's, say, -- the natural rubber in
hoses might be affected by ethanol. But since the 1980's IIRC, the
government requires cars to be compatible with E10, and the
manufacturers replaced rubber with neoprene or the like. It happens
that neoprene resists attack by ethanol and gasoline at any
concentrarion.

If ethanol were a risk to the atmosphere then why has the March of
Dimes endorsed its use? The facts are that ethanol produces much
cleaner emissions than gasoline.

Ethanol is clean, cheap, and enhances the performance of a car. My
old, all-wheel-drive, automatic shift Outback feels like it wants to
run. Its 0-60 mph time is 12.35 seconds, which ain't bad. It's not
for nothing that Indy cars this year will be running on pure ethanol.

Come on in! The water's fine!

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On May 20, 4:32 pm, "dnoyeB" <as... RemoveThis @fake.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 21:06:16 -0700, -rick- wrote:
> > L. Ross Raszewski wrote:
>
> >> Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
> >> and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.
>
> > ???
>
> > I get about 10% less mpg with 10% ethanol.  Some of that is
> > temperature.
>
> Makes no sense.  Means ethanol contributed nothing
> toward your mpg. You would get the same thing if you put 10% less fuel in
> the tank. Which would cost you 10% less.

Makes a lot of sense. Suppose I invent a fuel that gets you 200 mpg,
but it costs $200 per gallon. Would you go for it? No. MPG isn't the
object; it's MPD: miles per dollar.

On E60 (on my way to E85) I get 15% less mpg, but it costs 25% less.
That means I am getting 13% more miles/dollar than on gasoline. The
calculation is (1-0.15)/(1-0.25) = 0.85/0.75 = 1.13.

Not to mention that with ethanol I pollute less, I cause less money to
flow to bad people, and I enjoy driving more, because I get higher
torque and higher horsepower. My old 1999 OB goes 0 - 60 mph in under
12.5 seconds.

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT), against all advice,
something compelled Uncle Ben <ben DeleteThis @greenba.com>, to say:

> My old 1999 OB goes 0 - 60 mph in under
> 12.5 seconds.


Wow.

My Audi will do that in six.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On May 20, 5:19 pm, Steve Daniels <sdani... DeleteThis @gorge.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT), against all advice,
> something compelled Uncle Ben <b... DeleteThis @greenba.com>, to say:
>
> >    My old 1999 OB goes 0 - 60 mph in under
> >    12.5 seconds.
>
> Wow.
>
> My Audi will do that in six.

Congratulations! My GF's Porsche will do it in even less. But she
doesn't have AWD and AT.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:21:22 -0700 (PDT), against all advice,
something compelled Uncle Ben <ben.RemoveThis@greenba.com>, to say:

> On May 20, 5:19 pm, Steve Daniels <sdani....RemoveThis@gorge.net> wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT), against all advice,
> > something compelled Uncle Ben <b....RemoveThis@greenba.com>, to say:
> >
> > >    My old 1999 OB goes 0 - 60 mph in under
> > >    12.5 seconds.
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > My Audi will do that in six.
>
> Congratulations! My GF's Porsche will do it in even less. But she
> doesn't have AWD and AT.

I do. It's really sweet. I wonder how much I'd lose if it were
set up to run alcohol?


--
Life is too short to play cheap guitars.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On Fri, 16 May 2008 21:06:16 -0700, -rick- wrote:

> L. Ross Raszewski wrote:
>
>> Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
>> and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.
>
> ???
>
> I get about 10% less mpg with 10% ethanol. Some of that is
> temperature.


Makes no sense. Means ethanol contributed nothing
toward your mpg. You would get the same thing if you put 10% less fuel in
the tank. Which would cost you 10% less.
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? 

On May 20, 5:44 pm, Steve Daniels <sdani... RemoveThis @gorge.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:21:22 -0700 (PDT), against all advice,
> something compelled Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com>, to say:
>
> >    On May 20, 5:19 pm, Steve Daniels <sdani... RemoveThis @gorge.net> wrote:
> >    > On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT), against all advice,
> >    > something compelled Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com>, to say:
>
> >    > >    My old 1999 OB goes 0 - 60 mph in under
> >    > >    12.5 seconds.
>
> >    > Wow.
>
> >    > My Audi will do that in six.
>
> >    Congratulations!  My GF's Porsche will do it in even less.  But she
> >    doesn't have AWD and AT.
>
> I do.  It's really sweet.  I wonder how much I'd lose if it were
> set up to run alcohol?
>
You could find out. If you know how much gasoline is left in your
tank -- just a few gallons -- add just enough E85 to make the
concentration E30. It isn't enough to light your trouble light.
Drive it a while to let your ECU adjust the mixture. Then see if your
performance is worse or better and let us know. It won't hurt your
car.

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion?