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External
Since: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 227
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion?  Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>autos>subaru (more info?)
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"L. Ross Raszewski" wrote:
> Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
> and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.
Hi,
What blend were you using before? I'm pretty sure yours is the FIRST
report I've seen of BETTER mileage w/ more ethanol. Can you show us some
numbers, please?
Thanks!
Rick |
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External
Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 81
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> this is a coupla years old, but still has a lot of good points;
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.h...
>
> Carl
The article's main points against ethanol are (1) it causes smog, (2)
it costs more energy to make it than you get back, and (3) E85 is very
inefficient. I believe all three are wrong. Ethanol when burned
causes no particulates in the air, no sulfur, and little nitrogen
oxides; when spilled it is dispersed by water and consumed by
bacteria. If the Exxon Valdez had spilled ethanol instead of
petroleum, the effect on the environment would have gone to zero in a
few months, instead of still being with us after decades.
The Pimental paper (not "numerous studies") that claims that there is
an energy loss in the production of ethanol was debunked as soon as it
was published. A study by Prof. Bruce Dale (Chem. Engr, Mich. State
Univ.) finds that "more than twenty gallons" of ethanol can be
produced for every gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel expended in the
process. In fact, there is a real energy deficit in the production of,
not ethanol, but gasoline!
Efficiency? Today I filled the tank of my 1999 OB, unmodified, with
what I calculate as E41, obtained by mixing at the pumps E85 and E10
plus what residual E0 I had in there. I'll report on the mileage in a
few days. The prices were E10, $3.87/gal; E85, $2.97/gal. (So far,
the car runs fine and no CE light.)
Ben |
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External
Since: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 78
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 8:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 8 May 2008 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben DeleteThis @greenba.com>
wrote:
>On May 8, 3:42 pm, Frank Boettcher <fboettc... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 May 2008 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b... DeleteThis @greenba.com>
>> wrote:
>> .....
>> >When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
>> >market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
>> >convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary.
>> >The reasons go beyond personal economy: safety, the environment, and
>> >national security.
>>
>> Already started, and it is not going to take $15 gasoline.
>> I just picked one, there are plenty more, and the opportunity is vast.
>>
>> http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=34559
>>
>>
>> Free market will get the job done in a reasonable time. "Planned"
>> economies have always failed.
>>
>Frank, the article you quote does not deal with E85 but with small
>gasoline cars.
Please read your contention again, as stated just above. It has to
do with the supply, demand and price of gasoline and what will impact
it. Your contention is that:
> >When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
>> >market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
>> >convert to biofuels now,
"Might yield" My contention is that it is already yielding to the
pressure, and oil and gasoline will not get anywhere near that price
before a major and appropriate philosophical change takes place. With
no government interference.
> The market is working fine in this area. But with E85
>there is a chicken and egg problem: Why buy a flex-fuel car when so
>little E85 is for sale. And why should a gas station install an E85
>pump when there are so few flex-fuel cars around. This is the kind of
>thing that needs a little "planned economy," much as that kind of
>thing is not generally the best solution.
>
>I agree than planned economies do not work well as a rule. But there
>are exceptions. There are "planned economy" moves that have worked
>well.
> That is why we all drive on the right.
Absolutley nothing to do with the economy.
>That is why we all have
>seat belts. and air bags.
Absolutley nothing to do with the economy
>
>If we get no such law (mandating flex-fuel), I hope you are right!
I'm not concerned.
Frank
>
>Ben >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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"Valued Corporate #120,34
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External
Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 20
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Dec 02, 2007
Posts: 11
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 08 May 2008 16:06:41 -0700, Rick Courtright
<rcourtright RemoveThis @iname.com> wrote:
> "L. Ross Raszewski" wrote:
>
>> Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
>> and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.
>
> Hi,
>
> What blend were you using before? I'm pretty sure yours is the FIRST
> report I've seen of BETTER mileage w/ more ethanol. Can you show us some
> numbers, please?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Rick
I don't know what exactly changed, but I was getting pretty dire
mileage, around 20 mpg, and when I started consistently going to the
E15 station, it rose up to about what I'd come to expect from a sube
wagon, around 24-25.
I don't really know a whole lot about how gasoline works, but ethanol
increases octane, doesn't it? I know that doesn't translate into
higher mileage, but it could have other beneficial effects on the
engine. >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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External
Since: Nov 07, 2005
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:20 am
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 8, 2:41 pm, "L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszew....DeleteThis@loyola.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT), spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com
>
>
>
> <spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b....DeleteThis@greenba.com> wrote:
> >> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
> >> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
> >> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
> >> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
> >> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
> >> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
> >> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
> >> us.
>
> >> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
> >> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
> >> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
> >> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
> >> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
> >> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
> >> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
> >> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>
> >> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
> >> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
> >> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
> >> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
> >> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
> >> it.
>
> >> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
> >> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
> >> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
> >> convert?
>
> > If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
> > enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
> > in short order.
>
> > I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
> > this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
> > the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
> > being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>
> > Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
> > mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>
> > Dave
>
> Danger will robinson!
>
> There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
> ethanol.
>
> Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
> dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.
>
> Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
> form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
> disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
> what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
> very different properties can't be good.
Well, if so, what happens to the poor shmuck with his factory flex-
fuel vehicle who does one fillup with 'gas' or 'gasohol (10%eth)' and
another with 'E85'?
Is there an owners-manual warning about making sure the tank is fairly
empty before filling up with a radically different blend?
Sounds like a flex-fuel vehicle must be made to run equally well on
straight gas, or staright eth, or anywhere in between.
Dave >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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External
Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 81
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 8, 2:41 pm, "L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszew....DeleteThis@loyola.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT), spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> <spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b....DeleteThis@greenba.com> wrote:
> >> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
> >> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
> >> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
> >> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
> >> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
> >> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
> >> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
> >> us.
>
> >> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
> >> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
> >> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
> >> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
> >> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
> >> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
> >> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
> >> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>
> >> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
> >> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
> >> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
> >> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
> >> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
> >> it.
>
> >> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
> >> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
> >> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
> >> convert?
>
> > If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
> > enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
> > in short order.
>
> > I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
> > this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
> > the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
> > being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>
> > Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
> > mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>
> > Dave
>
> Danger will robinson!
>
> There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
> ethanol.
>
> Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
> dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.
>
> Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
> form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
> disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
> what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
> very different properties can't be good.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is not true. (see www.freepatentsonline.com/4297172.html)
Ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible (do not separate into
distinct liquid phases) in any proportion. It is water that separates
from gasoline to create problems, but the problems are not disatrous
and are easily fixed with a can of Drygas, which uses alcohol to
combine with the water and make it dissolve into the gasoline. >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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External
Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 81
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:46 am
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 9, 12:25 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
> On Fri, 9 May 2008 08:10:02 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On May 8, 2:41 pm, "L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszew... RemoveThis @loyola.edu> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT), spamTHIS... RemoveThis @yahoo.com
>
> >> <spamTHIS... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com> wrote:
> >> >> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
> >> >> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
> >> >> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
> >> >> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
> >> >> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
> >> >> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
> >> >> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
> >> >> us.
>
> >> >> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
> >> >> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
> >> >> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
> >> >> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
> >> >> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
> >> >> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
> >> >> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
> >> >> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>
> >> >> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
> >> >> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
> >> >> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
> >> >> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
> >> >> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
> >> >> it.
>
> >> >> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
> >> >> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
> >> >> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
> >> >> convert?
>
> >> > If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
> >> > enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
> >> > in short order.
>
> >> > I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
> >> > this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
> >> > the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
> >> > being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>
> >> > Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
> >> > mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>
> >> > Dave
>
> >> Danger will robinson!
>
> >> There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
> >> ethanol.
>
> >> Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
> >> dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.
>
> >> Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
> >> form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
> >> disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
> >> what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
> >> very different properties can't be good.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >This is not true. (seewww.freepatentsonline.com/4297172.html)
>
> > Ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible (do not separate into
> >distinct liquid phases) in any proportion. It is water that separates
> >from gasoline to create problems, but the problems are not disatrous
> >and are easily fixed with a can of Drygas, which uses alcohol to
> >combine with the water and make it dissolve into the gasoline.
>
> Drygas has little effect on ethanol blends, except to make the
> "gasahol" hold a bit more water before it, and the ethanol, separate
> out.
>
"except to make the 'gasahol' hold a bit more water"
That is the whole point of Drygas, and that is what makes the water go
out the exhaust pipe. So, "little effect" except for getting rid of
the water.
Ben >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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clare at snyder dot ontar
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External
Since: Apr 11, 2008
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Fri, 9 May 2008 06:20:20 -0700 (PDT), spamTHISbrp.DeleteThis@yahoo.com wrote:
>On May 8, 2:41 pm, "L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszew....DeleteThis@loyola.edu> wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT), spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>> <spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b....DeleteThis@greenba.com> wrote:
>> >> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
>> >> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
>> >> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
>> >> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
>> >> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
>> >> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
>> >> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
>> >> us.
>>
>> >> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
>> >> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
>> >> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
>> >> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
>> >> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
>> >> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
>> >> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
>> >> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>>
>> >> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
>> >> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
>> >> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
>> >> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
>> >> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
>> >> it.
>>
>> >> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
>> >> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
>> >> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
>> >> convert?
>>
>> > If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
>> > enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
>> > in short order.
>>
>> > I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
>> > this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
>> > the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
>> > being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>>
>> > Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
>> > mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>>
>> > Dave
>>
>> Danger will robinson!
>>
>> There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
>> ethanol.
>>
>> Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
>> dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.
>>
>> Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
>> form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
>> disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
>> what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
>> very different properties can't be good.
>
>
>Well, if so, what happens to the poor shmuck with his factory flex-
>fuel vehicle who does one fillup with 'gas' or 'gasohol (10%eth)' and
>another with 'E85'?
>
>Is there an owners-manual warning about making sure the tank is fairly
>empty before filling up with a radically different blend?
>
>Sounds like a flex-fuel vehicle must be made to run equally well on
>straight gas, or staright eth, or anywhere in between.
>
>
>Dave
This is NOT true.
The problem of "phase separation" has to do with WATER in the fuel.
Ethanol is hygroscopic - it attracts water and absorbs it. The amount
of water it can hold varies with temperature, so on a cool day the
water and ethanol can suddenly "drop out" of the mix - all at once.
THIS is where the danger comes in using ethanol "enhanced" fuel in
planes, boats, and snowmobiles. (as well as in cars - to a lesser
extent as you are usually not out of reach of help when it happens on
the road.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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clare at snyder dot ontar
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External
Since: Apr 11, 2008
Posts: 53
|
(Msg. 40) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Fri, 9 May 2008 08:10:02 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben.DeleteThis@greenba.com>
wrote:
>On May 8, 2:41 pm, "L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszew....DeleteThis@loyola.edu> wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT), spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <spamTHIS....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b....DeleteThis@greenba.com> wrote:
>> >> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
>> >> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
>> >> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
>> >> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
>> >> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
>> >> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
>> >> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
>> >> us.
>>
>> >> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
>> >> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
>> >> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
>> >> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
>> >> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
>> >> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
>> >> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
>> >> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>>
>> >> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
>> >> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
>> >> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
>> >> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
>> >> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
>> >> it.
>>
>> >> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
>> >> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
>> >> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
>> >> convert?
>>
>> > If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
>> > enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
>> > in short order.
>>
>> > I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
>> > this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
>> > the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
>> > being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>>
>> > Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
>> > mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>>
>> > Dave
>>
>> Danger will robinson!
>>
>> There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
>> ethanol.
>>
>> Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
>> dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.
>>
>> Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
>> form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
>> disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
>> what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
>> very different properties can't be good.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>This is not true. (see www.freepatentsonline.com/4297172.html)
>
> Ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible (do not separate into
>distinct liquid phases) in any proportion. It is water that separates
>from gasoline to create problems, but the problems are not disatrous
>and are easily fixed with a can of Drygas, which uses alcohol to
>combine with the water and make it dissolve into the gasoline.
Drygas has little effect on ethanol blends, except to make the
"gasahol" hold a bit more water before it, and the ehanol, separate
out.
Not disaterous on the road close to civilization, but can be DEADLY in
a plane, or snowmobile or boat "off the beaten path"
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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External
Since: Apr 23, 2007
Posts: 91
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 8, 9:01 pm, "L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszew....RemoveThis@loyola.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 08 May 2008 16:06:41 -0700, Rick Courtright
>
> <rcourtri....RemoveThis@iname.com> wrote:
> > "L. Ross Raszewski" wrote:
>
> >> Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
> >> and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.
>
> > Hi,
>
> > What blend were you using before? I'm pretty sure yours is the FIRST
> > report I've seen of BETTER mileage w/ more ethanol. Can you show us some
> > numbers, please?
>
> > Thanks!
>
> > Rick
>
> I don't know what exactly changed, but I was getting pretty dire
> mileage, around 20 mpg, and when I started consistently going to the
> E15 station, it rose up to about what I'd come to expect from a sube
> wagon, around 24-25.
>
> I don't really know a whole lot about how gasoline works, but ethanol
> increases octane, doesn't it? I know that doesn't translate into
> higher mileage, but it could have other beneficial effects on the
> engine.
Perhaps it's the difference between winter formulation and a summer
one, which typically generates a little better mileage. At any rate,
if this is indeed a 'data point', you should have 'data', not just
anecdotal evidence....  And while it may indeed have a higher
octane, it also has a bit less energy available per gallon, so in
theory it should take MORE of it to generate the same sort of power
that a gallon of gas does - hence the understanding that it generally
provides fewer miles per gallons.
Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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clare at snyder dot ontar
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External
Since: Apr 11, 2008
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Fri, 9 May 2008 11:46:28 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben RemoveThis @greenba.com>
wrote:
>On May 9, 12:25 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 May 2008 08:10:02 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On May 8, 2:41 pm, "L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszew... RemoveThis @loyola.edu> wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT), spamTHIS... RemoveThis @yahoo.com
>>
>> >> <spamTHIS... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com> wrote:
>> >> >> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
>> >> >> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
>> >> >> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
>> >> >> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
>> >> >> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
>> >> >> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
>> >> >> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
>> >> >> us.
>>
>> >> >> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
>> >> >> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
>> >> >> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
>> >> >> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
>> >> >> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
>> >> >> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
>> >> >> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
>> >> >> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>>
>> >> >> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
>> >> >> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
>> >> >> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
>> >> >> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
>> >> >> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
>> >> >> it.
>>
>> >> >> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
>> >> >> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
>> >> >> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
>> >> >> convert?
>>
>> >> > If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
>> >> > enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
>> >> > in short order.
>>
>> >> > I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
>> >> > this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
>> >> > the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
>> >> > being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>>
>> >> > Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
>> >> > mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>>
>> >> > Dave
>>
>> >> Danger will robinson!
>>
>> >> There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
>> >> ethanol.
>>
>> >> Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
>> >> dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.
>>
>> >> Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
>> >> form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
>> >> disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
>> >> what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
>> >> very different properties can't be good.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >This is not true. (seewww.freepatentsonline.com/4297172.html)
>>
>> > Ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible (do not separate into
>> >distinct liquid phases) in any proportion. It is water that separates
>> >from gasoline to create problems, but the problems are not disatrous
>> >and are easily fixed with a can of Drygas, which uses alcohol to
>> >combine with the water and make it dissolve into the gasoline.
>>
>> Drygas has little effect on ethanol blends, except to make the
>> "gasahol" hold a bit more water before it, and the ethanol, separate
>> out.
>>
>
>
>"except to make the 'gasahol' hold a bit more water"
>
>That is the whole point of Drygas, and that is what makes the water go
>out the exhaust pipe. So, "little effect" except for getting rid of
>the water.
>
>Ben
You do not understand. Drygas is alcohol - just like ethanol, and it
has the same effect. Adding drygas to ethanol gasoline MAY get you
over the hump - but it is the ethanol in the first place that is
causing the problem by acting as a water sponge - absorbing water out
of the air. Just turns E10 into E10.05
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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External
Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 81
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
>
> You do not understand. Drygas is alcohol - just like ethanol, and it
> has the same effect. Adding drygas to ethanol gasoline MAY get you
> over the hump - but it is the ethanol in the first place that is
> causing the problem by acting as a water sponge - absorbing water out
> of the air. Just turns E10 into E10.05
My original point was to rebut the alcohol/gasoline scare -- all that
alcohol does NOT itself cause a separation of liquid phases. It is
the contaminating water that might cause separation, and that would
take a lot of water. If your fuel cap is on tight, you shouldn't be
getting much moist air in your tank.
Ben >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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External
Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 81
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On May 7, 4:57 pm, spamTHIS....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com wrote:
> On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b....TakeThisOut@greenba.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
> > much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
> > fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
> > prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
> > "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
> > down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
> > we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
> > us.
>
> > So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
> > gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
> > where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
> > racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
> > of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
> > gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
> > true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
> > rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>
> > One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
> > use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
> > enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
> > One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
> > injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
> > it.
>
> > What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
> > his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
> > the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
> > convert?
>
> If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
> enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
> in short order.
>
> I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
> this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
> the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
> being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>
> Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
> mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>
> Dave- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
More information:
1. On YouTube there is a film that shows the inside of an engine,
unmodified, that has burned E85 for more than 100,000 miles. There is
no sign of damage. A possible explanation is that the very lean
mixture burns cooler than gasoline.
2. The guy with the enlarged injector diameters gets by on pure
gasoline as long as he uses a light foot on the accelerator. He does
not open the throttle more than 60% of wide open.
3. I am running E41 in my unmodified 1999 OB, and the performance is
fine. I will, however, out of fear, install a modification kit before
attempting E85 straight.
Ben. >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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External
Since: Dec 02, 2007
Posts: 11
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:31 am
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Fri, 9 May 2008 19:54:47 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben.TakeThisOut@greenba.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> You do not understand. Drygas is alcohol - just like ethanol, and it
>> has the same effect. Adding drygas to ethanol gasoline MAY get you
>> over the hump - but it is the ethanol in the first place that is
>> causing the problem by acting as a water sponge - absorbing water out
>> of the air. Just turns E10 into E10.05
>
> My original point was to rebut the alcohol/gasoline scare -- all that
> alcohol does NOT itself cause a separation of liquid phases. It is
> the contaminating water that might cause separation, and that would
> take a lot of water. If your fuel cap is on tight, you shouldn't be
> getting much moist air in your tank.
>
> Ben
My mistake about the ethanol. Chemistry's never been my strong suit,
much to my father's chagrin.
But this water thing -- could thatr be what was behind the fact that
my car stalled in traffic right around when I switched to an ethanol
blend? (Took it to the mechanic, who spent all day looking at it and
couldn't find anything wrong) >> Stay informed about: Ethanol conversion? |
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