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Ethanol conversion?

 
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spamTHISbrp

External


Since: Nov 07, 2005
Posts: 24



(Msg. 16) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:47 am
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On May 7, 8:25 pm, "Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"
<DwightSchr... RemoveThis @DunderMifflin.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 May 2008 17:13:19 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com>
> wrote:
>
> > In any case, I hear so many
> >complaints about ethanol by those stuck with E10
>
> What have you heard?
>
> We've had E10 here in Connecticut for ~ 5 years, since MBTE was
> banned. I've never heard anyone complain, except for aircraft or
> classic car uses.


You must not know any motorcycle users who had to rejet.
I was there for the switchover. Sucked!

Dave

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Uncle Ben

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Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 81



(Msg. 17) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 10:15 am
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Regarding mandates vs market forces causing the transition to flex-
fuel cars:

I am all for market solutions where they exist, but there are cases in
which the market gets trapped into a sub-optimumal solution. It is
like a liquid cooled below its normal freezing point -- supercooled.
In these cases it takes an external event to help the liquid find its
lowest free energy state, or to help the market find the best
solution.

When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary.
The reasons go beyond personal economy: safety, the environment, and
national security.

Requiring flex-fuel cars will cost the makers of automobiles less than
what we pay OPEC for oil in one week.

Ben

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John O

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Since: Jan 26, 2008
Posts: 17



(Msg. 18) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:30 am
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>> I am all in favor of
>>nuclear plants for generating electricity.
>
> Ah, where were you when I needed you in the seventies when my company,
> the leading producer of nuclear components and the first to engineer a
> "pre liscenced facility" was being pounded out of business by
> regulators, hollywood liberals, and the media.
>

Yeah, no kidding. As a kid back then it seemed so apparent that nuclear was
the only approach with a long-term future. Travel through West Va much
lately? they scrape down mountains, and used to leave behind total wasteland
mining coal...and this is different from a worst-case nuke problem how,
exactly? Coal miners dies by the dozens every year, and their diseases are
nasty...nuke plant workers do very well in contrast.

Anyway, spent fuel is easy if we realize that some part of this planet can
hold lots of it....encapsulate it in teflon and drop it into the deepest
South Pacific trench or under the North Pole. The environmental advocates
may be seeing the light these days.

Go Nukes! Smile

-John O
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Carl 1 Lucky Texan

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Since: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 978



(Msg. 19) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:57 am
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

> On Thu, 8 May 2008 06:25:40 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben.TakeThisOut@greenba.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On May 8, 7:51 am, Frank Boettcher <fboettc....TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:11:14 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b....TakeThisOut@greenba.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>
>>...
>>Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
>>
>>>>we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
>>>>us.
>>>
>>>You might want to share the fully objective learned information that
>>>caused you to draw this conclusion. Be sure to factor in the
>>>unprecedented rise in food prices that you are paying with the
>>>diversion of crops to ethanol production, a not so hidden cost. I
>>>have to eat, I don't necessarily have to drive.
>>>....
>>
>>OK. The best presentation I have found of the state of things is a
>>new book "Energy Victory" by Robert Zubrin. To summarize,
>>the most important use of oil in the US is for gasoline for
>>transporation, and that requires liquid fuels.
>
>
> I haven't read the book. However, I consider Zubrin no more an expert
> on that subject than I do Al Gore an expert in the area of global
> warming, causes and cures. I believe Zubrin has devoted most of his
> career to promotion of space exploration
>
>
>>I am all in favor of
>>nuclear plants for generating electricity.
>
>
> Ah, where were you when I needed you in the seventies when my company,
> the leading producer of nuclear components and the first to engineer a
> "pre liscenced facility" was being pounded out of business by
> regulators, hollywood liberals, and the media.
>
>
>>but we need a form of
>>energy that is readily used in cars. The current theory is to
>>generate hydrogen and compress it or liquify it and carry it around
>>for fuel cells or combustion.
>
>
> .
>
>>Hydrogen will never do. If it is in liquid form it will slowly boil
>>off. I wouldn't want to go into a parking garage full of hydrogen-
>>powered cars and light a match there. Compression require a heavy
>>steel bottle to hold it, and that might double the weight of a car.
>
>
> I'm sure there was an expert that said "gasoline and the internal
> combustion engine will never replace the horse drawn carriage"
>
> I was fortunate enough to be an evaluator at the local high school
> senior projects last week. One of the projects I evaluated was an
> electrolisis/fuel cell device. Yes there are problems. No it is not
> viable at this time. The one thing that I took away was the
> enthusiasm of the student and his intent to major in Engineering with
> the hope of working on fuel cell technology.
>
>>Hybrids are good, but they are expensive and heavy and they still use
>>enough gasoline to make them inferior to biofuels. And batteries are a
>>complication.
>>
>>Ethanol is produced in abundance in Brazil at low cost using sugar as
>>a feed stock. We should not be charging a high tariff on its
>>importation. Nor should we be subsidizing the use of corn for
>>ethanol; the evidence is not clear that our diversion of corn from
>>food to fuel is solely responsible for world-wide food inflation
>
>
>
> It is clear to me that with crop yield at record levels which usually
> causes a reduction in the price of corn, price has risen by
> approximately 25%. Direct relation to the diversion of a substantial
> portion of the crop to production of ethanol, driven by subsidies.
> You of course can believe what you wish.
>
>
>>in any case, there are many other sources from which to make
>>biofuels. Coal is one of them if you consider using methanol.
>>
>>Distribution of ethanol is a hard problem, but if it is important
>>enough, it can be solved the way Brazil solved it: require all cars
>>sold in the US to be flex-fuel. It goes against my libertarian
>>principles, but solves the nucleation problem -- how to get a user
>>base large enough to repay the massive installation of ethanol pumps.
>
>
> I would prefer to let the free market dictate what direction we go in.
> "Requiring" by the government doesn't have a great track record in my
> view.
>
>>Flex-fuel cars are pretty much like our gasoline cars; the main
>>change is in range of mixtures that work. If we have the volume of
>>production, the cost of a flex-fuel car should not be much more than
>>current cars. Conversion of current cars should cost only a few
>>hundred.
>>
>>This is not the place to try to answer every question about bio-
>>fuels. Get Zubrin's book!
>
>
> Maybe I will, if I can get comfortable with his credentials.
>
> Frank
>
>
>>Uncle Ben
>
>

Thank you for posting. I also doubt the long-term viability of most
bio-fuels and certainly feel the present situation is untenable. Ethanol
from corn is highly subsidized (and no, I do not want oil/gasoline
subsidized either) at several levels. It cannot use the current gas
pipeline distribution infrastructure. It MAY be an OK fuel for farm
equipment local to the plant - but it will never be more than a curious
'pet project' for the nation at large. Growing food for cars 'may' be
immoral!

;^)


The future for road transportation in general and more specifically
'city'-type travel will be vehicles that have regenerative braking
capability. At present, those would be; hydraulic accumulators (Ford has
this in a truck IIRC) compressed air (like the MIDI or whatever it'
called) and electrics. Of course these technologies could be combined
into hybrids. If you look at the mileage numbers for the Prius as an
example, other ICE only cars can match it for highway mileage - but the
city number is very high thanx to regen-braking.

I also think the Feds should consider allowing production of a class of
vehicle 'intermediate' to cars and motorcycles. 3-4 wheel, lightweight
enclosed vehicles with reduced 'mandates' in the size, safety and weight
categories. perhaps restricted to adults only or dis-allowing babies, etc.

I feel all-electric cars may very well be the best choice eventually.

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
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Dano58

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Since: Apr 23, 2007
Posts: 91



(Msg. 20) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:18 pm
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On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b....TakeThisOut@greenba.com> wrote:
> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
> us.
>
> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>
> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
> it.
>
> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
> convert?

DO NOT just dump a tankful of E85 in your car! See
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php The major issue
they discuss is a potential increase in emissions (which could be a
felony). The ethanol content can also dry out any rubber hoses are
seals over time, leading to all sorts of issues with leakage.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA
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Frank

External


Since: Aug 23, 2007
Posts: 38



(Msg. 21) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:32 pm
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John O wrote:

>
> Yeah, no kidding. As a kid back then it seemed so apparent that nuclear was
> the only approach with a long-term future. Travel through West Va much
> lately? they scrape down mountains, and used to leave behind total wasteland
> mining coal...and this is different from a worst-case nuke problem how,
> exactly? Coal miners dies by the dozens every year, and their diseases are
> nasty...nuke plant workers do very well in contrast.
>
> Anyway, spent fuel is easy if we realize that some part of this planet can
> hold lots of it....encapsulate it in teflon and drop it into the deepest
> South Pacific trench or under the North Pole. The environmental advocates
> may be seeing the light these days.
>
> Go Nukes! Smile
>
> -John O
>
>

I have to tell you about a place I used to hunt in PA that got strip
mined. They left behind a golf course.

Twenty years ago, I saw Tennessee Eastman's coal syn gas plant and it
was very clean. They used the syn gas to make chemicals but you can also
make gas or use it to generate electricity. If necessary you can
capture the CO2 for deep well injection or enhanced oil recovery.

Besides coal, nuclear is the way to go. Hybrid cars can have batteries
recharged for enhanced mileage and this is going to require more
electrical power.

A hydrogen fuel economy will probably never happen. Fuel cells using
methanol as hydrogen source may be practical but another 10 years or so
of fuel cell development is needed.
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Rick Courtright

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Since: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 227



(Msg. 22) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:36 pm
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Uncle Ben wrote:

> enough, it can be solved the way Brazil solved it: require all cars
> sold in the US to be flex-fuel. It goes against my libertarian
> principles, but solves the nucleation problem -- how to get a user
> base large enough to repay the massive installation of ethanol pumps.

Hi,

It would be nice to have a "simple" answer, but we all know what they
say about simple answers to complex problems...

Anyway, I, too, don't generally look at government as the first line of
defense against all the ills that face us in our daily lives, but there
will have to be some kind of government intervention to make any of this
"change" work.

The first thing to look at is supply and demand. It's estimated approx
84 mil bbls of oil are produced daily, worldwide, and the US uses 21 mil
of them, or 25% of the world's total. (If the "peak oil" folks are to be
believed, that production figure's not likely to increase, but likely
will decrease, in the next couple of decades or so.) That's a lot of oil
for 5% of the world's population to use. And I suppose it wasn't so
problematic when the other 75% supplied the needs and wants of the rest
of the world.

But in the last 25 yrs or so, we've added roughly 25% of the world's
total population to the list of those demanding oil. While we were
complaining of gutless econobox cars in the '70s due to the oil
shortages of the time, the Chinese were riding bicycles. Today, you see
pictures from China and you won't see any more bicycles evident in their
cities than in pictures from the US. But you WILL see thousands,
millions, soon 10s of millions of cars that didn't even exist "back
then!" They've all gotta be fed from that one big pot of oil the world
shares. And the next few decades will see ANOTHER 25% of the world's
population demanding much of that oil as India becomes a prime player.
So we've gotta look at ~3 billion potential new consumers in the next
few years over what we had just a couple of decades ago. That's 10
people looking at the same bbl of oil for every single person in the US,
who used to think he was the only person in the world looking at it, and
may well have been, at the time. Prices are NOT going to go down nor are
supplies going to increase enough to fill that demand w/o serious change
in our usage habits.

So... while we're driving around like there's no tomorrow, let's stop at
Wally World and drop $3 on a Chinese calculator (made and shipped w/
some of that oil that used to be "ours" if we think selfishly) and start
crunching some numbers. Let's look at the average person's consumption
in the US. Or at least California where I live, since I've seen some
numbers for here.

The average Californian supposedly drives 15k mi/yr, and uses 1200 US
gal of fuel doing it. That's an average of 12.5 mpg. Which means,
despite CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy law) and other moves to
increase economy, we're virtually EXACTLY where we were roughly 35 yrs
ago when CAFE came to be. We have an estimated 30 mil cars registered in
this state, approx 3/4 of a car per person! Let's say half of those
cars, 15 mil, are actually being driven on a regular basis, as that
number roughly reflects the number of licensed drivers. Let's fire up
the calculator, then, and see what it tells us (if I slipped a decimal
place somewhere, please correct me):

It looks like we drive on average well over 600 mil miles PER DAY just
in this one State. At an avg of 12.5 mpg, that's ~49 mil gallons of
fuel. PER DAY. Since the best we can get out of a bbl of oil is about
50% gas/diesel, we're talking ~98 mil gals of oil. PER DAY. Divided by
42 gal/bbl, it's about 2.3 mil bbls. That's about 2.75% of the ENTIRE
world's production. For 1/4 of a percent of its population!

Now, let's change that average fuel economy just a little bit, to 13.5
mpg. That's less than 10% better. What does our cheap calculator tell us
now? Well, it looks like we cut our fuel consumption to about 46 mil
gal/day, or 91 mil gals of oil (2.175 mil bbls.) That's a cut of about
5% or so per day.

Doesn't seem like much, but it's easy enough to do, IF someone will
stand up and make it happen. The auto makers will try to tell us they
can't do it, or the market "demands" the gas hogs, or some other excuse
for maintaining the status quo (which not so strangely corresponds w/
their highest profit points.) The "market" generally isn't well enough
educated to figure out this "supply-demand" thing and how it applies to
THEM. Or they just don't care, thinking their part in the big picture is
insignificant. This leaves government intervention.

So we first saw CAFE in the '70s. Good idea. Bad application. Why? Too
many loopholes. The mandatory fleet average of ~27 mpg for cars was a
good idea. But it let trucks pretty much out of the picture. For working
trucks, yes, we need exemption or dispensation of some sort. But when
all someone has to do is raise their car an inch or so (recent Outback
change comes to mind!) to qualify it as a "truck" to gain an exemption
from fuel economy rules, it all becomes a big hoax.

The new "fuel economy standards" law passed by Congress recently made
virtually everyone in the auto industry upset. "Oh, we just can't meet
those standards!" Bull-oney. The standards are based on sales of
vehicles. Sell more hi-mileage vehicles than lo-mileage gas hogs, and
it's no problem, but how do we change the sales figures? The auto
industry wants us to believe the public wants "bigger" and "more
horsepower." Witness ads for the recent Forester: "bigger, bigger,
bigger" keeps coming up. And why does the public "want" such vehicles?

Well, advertising plays a huge role, as we're "told" we "need" such
things. And then, there's no penalty for waste. This is where,
unfortunately, government will have to step in. Let's look at a radical
approach to tax laws as one way. Post-war Britain provided an early
example, w/ their "taxable horsepower" ratings. Ok, it wasn't a perfect
system, but it was a step in the direction of conservation.

So we look at the "average" fuel economy requirement, give it a
tolerance range, and let people buy cars within that range w/ no strings
attached, other than the market's price of fuel. That will have just a
minor impact. We've given tax incentives for purchasing economical
vehicles in the past, but that hasn't changed things much, so let's go
the OTHER way, and as soon as one drops below a certain point, we start
taxing the bejeebers out of the vehicles if they can't be proven to be
"work" vehicles. We already have a "gas guzzler" tax on certain
cars--but it's essentially a one time tax at purchase. Extend that to be
added to the annual registration fees, and I'm certain people are smart
enough to adapt their wants to more closely match their needs. How long
do you think the kid next door w/ that 6-8 mpg "monster truck" is going
to keep that thing if, in addition to costing him $150 to fill it, he
ALSO has to pay, let's say for example, $2500/yr additional on his
registration? How long do you think Mrs. Soccer Mom's gonna think she
just HAS to have that 8 mpg Excursion to haul a couple of brats three
blocks to the soccer field?

We're no longer in a "free for all" economy WRT to fuel, nor can we
continue to base our entire economy on cheap oil that no longer exists.
Some of the ideas I've suggested ARE draconian, as well as being full of
potential holes and loopholes. And I HATE to think we'd actually have to
have the government institute such things, but until we first CUT our
consumption, we're sunk. We can't grow corn or make batteries for
hybrids fast enough to offset the increases in demand. Our $3 calculator
should give us some ideas of the economies (or costs) of scale involved.

Who's got some better ideas?

Rick
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Uncle Ben

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Since: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 81



(Msg. 23) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:41 pm
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On May 8, 3:42 pm, Frank Boettcher <fboettc... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 May 2008 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com>
> wrote:
> .....
> >When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
> >market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
> >convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary.
> >The reasons go beyond personal economy:  safety, the environment, and
> >national security.
>
> Already started, and it is not going to take $15 gasoline.
> I just picked one, there are plenty more, and the opportunity is vast.
>
> http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=34559
>
>
> Free market will get the job done in a reasonable time. "Planned"
> economies have always failed.
>
Frank, the article you quote does not deal with E85 but with small
gasoline cars. The market is working fine in this area. But with E85
there is a chicken and egg problem: Why buy a flex-fuel car when so
little E85 is for sale. And why should a gas station install an E85
pump when there are so few flex-fuel cars around. This is the kind of
thing that needs a little "planned economy," much as that kind of
thing is not generally the best solution.

I agree than planned economies do not work well as a rule. But there
are exceptions. There are "planned economy" moves that have worked
well. That is why we all drive on the right. That is why we all have
seat belts. and air bags.

If we get no such law (mandating flex-fuel), I hope you are right!

Ben
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Frank Boettcher

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Since: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 78



(Msg. 24) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:42 pm
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On Thu, 8 May 2008 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben DeleteThis @greenba.com>
wrote:

>Regarding mandates vs market forces causing the transition to flex-
>fuel cars:
>
>I am all for market solutions where they exist, but there are cases in
>which the market gets trapped into a sub-optimumal solution. It is
>like a liquid cooled below its normal freezing point -- supercooled.
>In these cases it takes an external event to help the liquid find its
>lowest free energy state, or to help the market find the best
>solution.
>
>When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
>market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
>convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary.
>The reasons go beyond personal economy: safety, the environment, and
>national security.

Already started, and it is not going to taqke $15 gasoline.
I just picked one, there are plenty more, and the opportunity is vast.

http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=34559

>
>Requiring flex-fuel cars will cost the makers of automobiles less than
>what we pay OPEC for oil in one week.

Not a relevant statement, even if true, and certainly not documented.
Once the cost of that requirement is spent how many miles will it
carry the customers in that week.

Free market will get the job done in a reasonable time. "Planned"
economies have always failed.
>
>Ben
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"Valued Corporate #120,34

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Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 20



(Msg. 25) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:53 pm
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clare at snyder dot ontar

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Since: Apr 11, 2008
Posts: 53



(Msg. 26) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:10 pm
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On Thu, 8 May 2008 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben.RemoveThis@greenba.com>
wrote:

>On May 8, 3:42 pm, Frank Boettcher <fboettc....RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 May 2008 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b....RemoveThis@greenba.com>
>> wrote:
>> .....
>> >When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
>> >market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
>> >convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary.
>> >The reasons go beyond personal economy:  safety, the environment, and
>> >national security.
>>
>> Already started, and it is not going to take $15 gasoline.
>> I just picked one, there are plenty more, and the opportunity is vast.
>>
>> http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=34559
>>
>>
>> Free market will get the job done in a reasonable time. "Planned"
>> economies have always failed.
>>
>Frank, the article you quote does not deal with E85 but with small
>gasoline cars. The market is working fine in this area. But with E85
>there is a chicken and egg problem: Why buy a flex-fuel car when so
>little E85 is for sale. And why should a gas station install an E85
>pump when there are so few flex-fuel cars around. This is the kind of
>thing that needs a little "planned economy," much as that kind of
>thing is not generally the best solution.
>
>I agree than planned economies do not work well as a rule. But there
>are exceptions. There are "planned economy" moves that have worked
>well. That is why we all drive on the right. That is why we all have
>seat belts. and air bags.
>
>If we get no such law (mandating flex-fuel), I hope you are right!
>
>Ben
It's a "planned economy" right now as far as ethanol goes.
Ethanol should be sidelined, 100%, until a viable cellulose conversion
technology is developed.
Using food for fuel production is reprehensible and will cause the USA
more grief, internationally, than their appetite for oil has in the
past.
The old story that "brewers mash" has all the nutrients left and can
be used as livestock feed doesn't cut it. The poor of the world run on
corn, not beef.And EWVERYTHING in North America, and worldwide, will
become more expensive as the price of corn and other food-grains go
up. North America is as much a "corn economy" right now as it is an
"oil economy" - and corn is extremely closely linked to oil -
Phosphate fertilizers require petroleum products for production, and
corn requires phosphates and nitrogen in huge quantities.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
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Carl 1 Lucky Texan

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Since: Jan 20, 2004
Posts: 978



(Msg. 27) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

> On Thu, 8 May 2008 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben RemoveThis @greenba.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On May 8, 3:42Â pm, Frank Boettcher <fboettc... RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 8 May 2008 10:15:30 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b... RemoveThis @greenba.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>.....
>>>
>>>>When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
>>>>market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
>>>>convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary.
>>>>The reasons go beyond personal economy: Â safety, the environment, and
>>>>national security.
>>>
>>>Already started, and it is not going to take $15 gasoline.
>>>I just picked one, there are plenty more, and the opportunity is vast.
>>>
>>>http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=34559
>>>
>>>
>>>Free market will get the job done in a reasonable time. "Planned"
>>>economies have always failed.
>>>
>>
>>Frank, the article you quote does not deal with E85 but with small
>>gasoline cars. The market is working fine in this area. But with E85
>>there is a chicken and egg problem: Why buy a flex-fuel car when so
>>little E85 is for sale. And why should a gas station install an E85
>>pump when there are so few flex-fuel cars around. This is the kind of
>>thing that needs a little "planned economy," much as that kind of
>>thing is not generally the best solution.
>>
>>I agree than planned economies do not work well as a rule. But there
>>are exceptions. There are "planned economy" moves that have worked
>>well. That is why we all drive on the right. That is why we all have
>>seat belts. and air bags.
>>
>>If we get no such law (mandating flex-fuel), I hope you are right!
>>
>>Ben
>
> It's a "planned economy" right now as far as ethanol goes.
> Ethanol should be sidelined, 100%, until a viable cellulose conversion
> technology is developed.
> Using food for fuel production is reprehensible and will cause the USA
> more grief, internationally, than their appetite for oil has in the
> past.
> The old story that "brewers mash" has all the nutrients left and can
> be used as livestock feed doesn't cut it. The poor of the world run on
> corn, not beef.And EWVERYTHING in North America, and worldwide, will
> become more expensive as the price of corn and other food-grains go
> up. North America is as much a "corn economy" right now as it is an
> "oil economy" - and corn is extremely closely linked to oil -
> Phosphate fertilizers require petroleum products for production, and
> corn requires phosphates and nitrogen in huge quantities.
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

this is a coupla years old, but still has a lot of good points;
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.ht...ampaign

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
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L. Ross Raszewski

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Since: Dec 02, 2007
Posts: 11



(Msg. 28) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Ethanol conversion? Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 7 May 2008 13:57:37 -0700 (PDT), spamTHISbrp.RemoveThis@yahoo.com
<spamTHISbrp.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 7, 4:11 pm, Uncle Ben <b....RemoveThis@greenba.com> wrote:
>> I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
>> much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
>> fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
>> prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
>> "peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
>> down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
>> we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
>> us.
>>
>> So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
>> gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
>> where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
>> racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
>> of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
>> gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
>> true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
>> rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)
>>
>> One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
>> use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
>> enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
>> One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
>> injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
>> it.
>>
>> What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
>> his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
>> the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
>> convert?
>
>
>
> If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
> enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
> in short order.
>
> I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
> this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
> the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
> being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.
>
>
> Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
> mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?
>
>
> Dave


Danger will robinson!

There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
ethanol.

Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.

Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
very different properties can't be good.
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L. Ross Raszewski

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Since: Dec 02, 2007
Posts: 11



(Msg. 29) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:44 pm
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On Wed, 7 May 2008 21:34:27 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <ben.DeleteThis@greenba.com> wrote:
> On May 7, 8:58 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 May 2008 20:25:35 -0400, "Valued Corporate #120,345
>> Employee (B A R R Y)" <DwightSchr....DeleteThis@DunderMifflin.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wed, 7 May 2008 17:13:19 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Ben <b....DeleteThis@greenba.com>
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >> In any case, I hear so many
>> >>complaints about ethanol by those stuck with E10
>>
>> >What have you heard?
>>
>> >We've had E10 here in Connecticut for ~ 5 years, since MBTE was
>> >banned.  I've never heard anyone complain, except for aircraft or
>> >classic car uses.
>>
>> And it gives roughly 5% poorer gas mileage on most cars.
>> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
>
> Yes, the estimates run from a few percent to 15 percent worse mileage.
> And the price is not lower enough to compensate.

Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.
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"Valued Corporate #120,34

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Since: Apr 12, 2008
Posts: 20



(Msg. 30) Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:44 pm
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