Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another..

On Jan 30, 9:01 pm, txje... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
> Over the years,  I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
> even an Eagle.  Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
> Durango.  It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.
>
> A few weeks ago,  it started running rough and the check engine light
> came on.  Upon diagnosis,  the problem was revealed to be that small
> pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off,  which had burned
> the valves.  A major repair job was required,  involving replacement
> of the camshaft and a complete valve job.  The total bill came to
> about $2200.
>
> The owner of the repair shop,  who is very trustworthy and has been
> used by my family for years,  spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
> rep.  He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on
> a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles,  and that even
> though it was a little bit out of warranty,  I should seek redress
> with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect.  He
> gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer
> and show it to them;  He stated that any competent mechanic could see
> instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part.  He also said
> that in his years at GM,  if a customer had brought in such a case,
> they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even
> full compensation for the repair job.
>
> A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise.  The service
> rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft,  and more or less
> accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil
> (in fact,  I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had
> planned on keeping this vehicle forever.)   He tossed me a card with
> Chrysler's 1-800 number on it,  and told me it was their problem.
>
> Not to be dissuaded,  I called the number he provided.  After much
> time on hold and being transferred around,  I was summarily told that
> the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my
> problem,  tough luck.  The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle
> hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or
> was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job.  They had
> no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.
>
> It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine
> fall apart at 59k miles and the manufacturer would take zero
> responsibility.  After decades of buying, owning, and driving
> Chryslers,  and after years of fighting the tide of my friends
> switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience I've
> always had,  I am now swearing off Chryslers forever.  (I haven't
> decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if
> maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.)  The new Challenger I had my eye on
> to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration.  My
> money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function
> properly and that take responsibility for their products.  From now
> on,  when people mention they're considering the purchase of a
> Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep,  I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out
> of it.
>
> I haven't entirely given up the hope of getting some kind of
> reimbursement from Chrysler.  I intend to write my state attorney
> general and pursue this under lemon laws,  and I suppose I'll send all
> the photos and receipts to Chrysler via certified mail, with a nice
> explanatory letter, and we'll see if they do anything.  But I doubt
> it.
>
> If anyone has any other suggestions on how to seek redress on this,
> I'd appreciate it.

Couldn't hurt to try. Years ago, the number 2 exhaust and number 4
intake camshaft lobes went flat on our 1980 Toyota Celica, with on
43,000 miles on it. At the time, Toyota had a wimpy 12 month / 12,000
mile warranty, and they refused to do anything. However, the extend
service agreement that was sold to us by the dealer offered to pay
half the cost, even though the coverage had expired six months
before.

The oil had been changed regularly since new. It was clearly a
manufacturer defect.

-KM
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

Have you considered a accidential truck fire.. hint hint


"Bill Putney" <bptn.RemoveThis@kinez.net> wrote in message
news:60dnatF1qgu2nU1@mid.individual.net...
> txjeep7.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
>> I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
>> Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
>> even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
>> Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.
>>
>> A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light
>> came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small
>> pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned
>> the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement
>> of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to
>> about $2200.
>>
>> The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been
>> used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
>> rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on...
>
>> ...I haven't entirely given up the hope of getting some kind of
>> reimbursement from Chrysler. I intend to write my state attorney
>> general and pursue this under lemon laws, and I suppose I'll send all
>> the photos and receipts to Chrysler via certified mail, with a nice
>> explanatory letter, and we'll see if they do anything. But I doubt
>> it.
>>
>> If anyone has any other suggestions on how to seek redress on this,
>> I'd appreciate it.
>
> Good luck. I went thru a similar thing with Ford some years ago. Frankly
> I don't think one manufacturer is any worse or better than another one
> these days on this sort of thing. Pursue it, but try not to drive
> yourself crazy over it (like I did with Ford).
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address
> with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

<txjeep7.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:25e85a06-e8d7-442c-95c3-bb92965427ed@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
> Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
> even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
> Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.
>
> A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light
> came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small
> pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned
> the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement
> of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to
> about $2200.
>
> The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been
> used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
> rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on
> a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles, and that even
> though it was a little bit out of warranty, I should seek redress
> with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect. He
> gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer
> and show it to them; He stated that any competent mechanic could see
> instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part. He also said
> that in his years at GM, if a customer had brought in such a case,
> they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even
> full compensation for the repair job.
>
> A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise. The service
> rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft, and more or less
> accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil
> (in fact, I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had
> planned on keeping this vehicle forever.) He tossed me a card with
> Chrysler's 1-800 number on it, and told me it was their problem.
>

As well he should. You didn't take your vehicle into his shop for a
repair, you took it to a private mechanic. Why should he help you?

> Not to be dissuaded, I called the number he provided. After much
> time on hold and being transferred around, I was summarily told that
> the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my
> problem, tough luck. The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle
> hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or
> was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job. They had
> no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.
>

I think your missing the point. If you had taken it to a Chrysler dealer
then Chrysler corp. would be assured that the camshaft had actually
been in your car. I'll also bet that you didn't take your truck into
the dealership for regular oil changes, you took it to your other
mechanic or a quick oil change place.

Here's the deal. You bought a new vehicle. You elected to deny
the Chrysler dealer the profits for regular maintainence during the
warranty period. Thus you deprived yourself of the chance of building
a relationship of trust with the dealer.

You don't seem to understand I think that car dealerships depend on
the profits from the service department to stay in business. No car
dealership could survive if they didn't do service work and just depended
on the margin on vehicle sales.

You have a relationship of trust with your "family" mechanic that
is a result of years of doing business with him. As a result he is
willing to cut you deals and go to bat for you. If you had given
the same car dealership that you bought your truck from all of
the maintainence work, you would have that same relationship
with them - and likely the dealership owner would go to bat for
you against Chrysler.

Let's see. Mfg recommended intervals for oil changes are 6K
right? That's a total of 10 oil changes since it was new. Suppose
the quickie lube does changes for $20 a change, and the dealership's
obscene rates are $60 for an oil change. So it seems to me
here that you saved $400 in oil changes by having the quickie lube
do them - but you lost $2200 in an engine rebuild. Not a very
smart thing I think.

> It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine
> fall apart at 59k miles

Under normal wear and tear I'd agree with this.

> and the manufacturer would take zero
> responsibility.

Not appalling at all. How do they know how you were treating the
vehicle unless you were visiting them all of the time for the little
piddly stuff?

> After decades of buying, owning, and driving
> Chryslers, and after years of fighting the tide of my friends
> switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience I've
> always had, I am now swearing off Chryslers forever. (I haven't
> decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if
> maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.) The new Challenger I had my eye on
> to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration. My
> money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function
> properly and that take responsibility for their products. From now
> on, when people mention they're considering the purchase of a
> Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out
> of it.
>

Are you going to sell your truck? If not, then I would see how much
more life you get out of it. What happens if you get another 160,000
miles out of it without trouble, in which case what are you going to be
saying about Chrysler vehicles then?

> I haven't entirely given up the hope of getting some kind of
> reimbursement from Chrysler. I intend to write my state attorney
> general and pursue this under lemon laws, and I suppose I'll send all
> the photos and receipts to Chrysler via certified mail, with a nice
> explanatory letter, and we'll see if they do anything. But I doubt
> it.
>
> If anyone has any other suggestions on how to seek redress on this,
> I'd appreciate it.

Your only option is your state lemon laws - assuming they are very
liberal. But you will never get back what you lost on this even if you
get reimbursement of some kind. Espically the time you spend
pursuing this. That is the breaks. Treat this as a learning experience.
Next time you go car shopping for a NEW vehicle, understand that
part of the cost of buying new is it costs more since your going to
have to spend your money at the dealership service department for
a while.

Ted
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm.TakeThisOut@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$41kjvj$qdp1$1@news.ipinc.net...
>
> <txjeep7.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:25e85a06-e8d7-442c-95c3-bb92965427ed@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
> > Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
> > even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
> > Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.
> >
> > A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light
> > came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small
> > pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned
> > the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement
> > of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to
> > about $2200.
> >
> > The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been
> > used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
> > rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on
> > a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles, and that even
> > though it was a little bit out of warranty, I should seek redress
> > with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect. He
> > gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer
> > and show it to them; He stated that any competent mechanic could see
> > instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part. He also said
> > that in his years at GM, if a customer had brought in such a case,
> > they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even
> > full compensation for the repair job.
> >
> > A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise. The service
> > rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft, and more or less
> > accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil
> > (in fact, I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had
> > planned on keeping this vehicle forever.) He tossed me a card with
> > Chrysler's 1-800 number on it, and told me it was their problem.
> >
>
> As well he should. You didn't take your vehicle into his shop for a
> repair, you took it to a private mechanic. Why should he help you?
>
> > Not to be dissuaded, I called the number he provided. After much
> > time on hold and being transferred around, I was summarily told that
> > the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my
> > problem, tough luck. The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle
> > hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or
> > was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job. They had
> > no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.
> >
>
> I think your missing the point. If you had taken it to a Chrysler dealer
> then Chrysler corp. would be assured that the camshaft had actually
> been in your car. I'll also bet that you didn't take your truck into
> the dealership for regular oil changes, you took it to your other
> mechanic or a quick oil change place.

AGREED!!
>
> Here's the deal. You bought a new vehicle. You elected to deny
> the Chrysler dealer the profits for regular maintainence during the
> warranty period. Thus you deprived yourself of the chance of building
> a relationship of trust with the dealer.

AGREED
>
> You don't seem to understand I think that car dealerships depend on
> the profits from the service department to stay in business. No car
> dealership could survive if they didn't do service work and just depended
> on the margin on vehicle sales.
>
> You have a relationship of trust with your "family" mechanic that
> is a result of years of doing business with him. As a result he is
> willing to cut you deals and go to bat for you. If you had given
> the same car dealership that you bought your truck from all of
> the maintainence work, you would have that same relationship
> with them - and likely the dealership owner would go to bat for
> you against Chrysler.

AGREED! Damn Ted your good!
>
> Let's see. Mfg recommended intervals for oil changes are 6K
> right? That's a total of 10 oil changes since it was new. Suppose
> the quickie lube does changes for $20 a change, and the dealership's
> obscene rates are $60 for an oil change. So it seems to me
> here that you saved $400 in oil changes by having the quickie lube
> do them - but you lost $2200 in an engine rebuild. Not a very
> smart thing I think.
>
> > It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine
> > fall apart at 59k miles

The 5.2 and 5.9 is a very good engine and I was sorry to see it go. Chrysler
doesnt know what the intake looked like before the repairs. It was more then
likely sludged up and cleaned after the repairs.
>
> Under normal wear and tear I'd agree with this.
>
> > and the manufacturer would take zero
> > responsibility.
>
> Not appalling at all. How do they know how you were treating the
> vehicle unless you were visiting them all of the time for the little
> piddly stuff?
>
> > After decades of buying, owning, and driving
> > Chryslers, and after years of fighting the tide of my friends
> > switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience I've
> > always had, I am now swearing off Chryslers forever. (I haven't
> > decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if
> > maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.) The new Challenger I had my eye on
> > to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration. My
> > money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function
> > properly and that take responsibility for their products. From now
> > on, when people mention they're considering the purchase of a
> > Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out
> > of it.
> >
>
> Are you going to sell your truck? If not, then I would see how much
> more life you get out of it. What happens if you get another 160,000
> miles out of it without trouble, in which case what are you going to be
> saying about Chrysler vehicles then?

He may get that if the oil is changed at the proper intervals
>
> > I haven't entirely given up the hope of getting some kind of
> > reimbursement from Chrysler. I intend to write my state attorney
> > general and pursue this under lemon laws, and I suppose I'll send all
> > the photos and receipts to Chrysler via certified mail, with a nice
> > explanatory letter, and we'll see if they do anything. But I doubt
> > it.
> >
> > If anyone has any other suggestions on how to seek redress on this,
> > I'd appreciate it.
>
> Your only option is your state lemon laws - assuming they are very
> liberal. But you will never get back what you lost on this even if you
> get reimbursement of some kind. Espically the time you spend
> pursuing this. That is the breaks. Treat this as a learning experience.
> Next time you go car shopping for a NEW vehicle, understand that
> part of the cost of buying new is it costs more since your going to
> have to spend your money at the dealership service department for
> a while.
>
> Ted
>
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

"maxpower" <damnnickname DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iJGdnRvbq8RZ-z7anZ2dnUVZ_oGjnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm DeleteThis @toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
> news:newscache$41kjvj$qdp1$1@news.ipinc.net...
>>
>> <txjeep7 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:25e85a06-e8d7-442c-95c3-bb92965427ed@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> > I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
>> > Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
>> > even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
>> > Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.
>> >
>> > A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light
>> > came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small
>> > pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned
>> > the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement
>> > of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to
>> > about $2200.
>> >
>> > The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been
>> > used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
>> > rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on
>> > a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles, and that even
>> > though it was a little bit out of warranty, I should seek redress
>> > with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect. He
>> > gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer
>> > and show it to them; He stated that any competent mechanic could see
>> > instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part. He also said
>> > that in his years at GM, if a customer had brought in such a case,
>> > they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even
>> > full compensation for the repair job.
>> >
>> > A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise. The service
>> > rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft, and more or less
>> > accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil
>> > (in fact, I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had
>> > planned on keeping this vehicle forever.) He tossed me a card with
>> > Chrysler's 1-800 number on it, and told me it was their problem.
>> >
>>
>> As well he should. You didn't take your vehicle into his shop for a
>> repair, you took it to a private mechanic. Why should he help you?
>>
>> > Not to be dissuaded, I called the number he provided. After much
>> > time on hold and being transferred around, I was summarily told that
>> > the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my
>> > problem, tough luck. The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle
>> > hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or
>> > was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job. They had
>> > no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.
>> >
>>
>> I think your missing the point. If you had taken it to a Chrysler dealer
>> then Chrysler corp. would be assured that the camshaft had actually
>> been in your car. I'll also bet that you didn't take your truck into
>> the dealership for regular oil changes, you took it to your other
>> mechanic or a quick oil change place.
>
> AGREED!!
>>
>> Here's the deal. You bought a new vehicle. You elected to deny
>> the Chrysler dealer the profits for regular maintainence during the
>> warranty period. Thus you deprived yourself of the chance of building
>> a relationship of trust with the dealer.
>
> AGREED
>>
>> You don't seem to understand I think that car dealerships depend on
>> the profits from the service department to stay in business. No car
>> dealership could survive if they didn't do service work and just depended
>> on the margin on vehicle sales.
>>
>> You have a relationship of trust with your "family" mechanic that
>> is a result of years of doing business with him. As a result he is
>> willing to cut you deals and go to bat for you. If you had given
>> the same car dealership that you bought your truck from all of
>> the maintainence work, you would have that same relationship
>> with them - and likely the dealership owner would go to bat for
>> you against Chrysler.
>
> AGREED! Damn Ted your good!
>>
>> Let's see. Mfg recommended intervals for oil changes are 6K
>> right? That's a total of 10 oil changes since it was new. Suppose
>> the quickie lube does changes for $20 a change, and the dealership's
>> obscene rates are $60 for an oil change. So it seems to me
>> here that you saved $400 in oil changes by having the quickie lube
>> do them - but you lost $2200 in an engine rebuild. Not a very
>> smart thing I think.
>>
>> > It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine
>> > fall apart at 59k miles
>
> The 5.2 and 5.9 is a very good engine and I was sorry to see it go.
> Chrysler
> doesnt know what the intake looked like before the repairs. It was more
> then
> likely sludged up and cleaned after the repairs.
>>
>> Under normal wear and tear I'd agree with this.
>>
>> > and the manufacturer would take zero
>> > responsibility.
>>
>> Not appalling at all. How do they know how you were treating the
>> vehicle unless you were visiting them all of the time for the little
>> piddly stuff?
>>
>> > After decades of buying, owning, and driving
>> > Chryslers, and after years of fighting the tide of my friends
>> > switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience I've
>> > always had, I am now swearing off Chryslers forever. (I haven't
>> > decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if
>> > maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.) The new Challenger I had my eye on
>> > to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration. My
>> > money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function
>> > properly and that take responsibility for their products. From now
>> > on, when people mention they're considering the purchase of a
>> > Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out
>> > of it.
>> >
>>
>> Are you going to sell your truck? If not, then I would see how much
>> more life you get out of it. What happens if you get another 160,000
>> miles out of it without trouble, in which case what are you going to be
>> saying about Chrysler vehicles then?
>
> He may get that if the oil is changed at the proper intervals


What do you call "proper" intervals?

Because I bought a US spec 2007 Dodge Caravan 3.8 new and imported it.

In the US and in the service book it says 3000 miles.
The same vehicle (albiet with the 3.3 version of the same engine and called
the Chrysler Voyager) is available here in the UK but right hand drive.
It has 12,000 miles between changes specified.

I think 12k miles is as lot. But I think 3k miles is rediculously short.
Here in Europe I dont think there are any cars avasilable with such a short
interval! Even ones that are also sold in the US. Almost all specify 6, 10
or 12 thousand mile intervals. There are lots of very old 200 thousand mile
taxis and company cars still running just fine! The scrap yards get them due
to rust before the engines give up!

Personally I do it every 5k miles with Mobil 1 full synthetic 0w/40 rather
than the fuel saving tap water thin 5w/20 specified for a bit of belt and
braces peace of mind.
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

"Burgerman" <burgerman RemoveThis @ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:z4Noj.302$j95.265@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
> "maxpower" <damnnickname RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:iJGdnRvbq8RZ-z7anZ2dnUVZ_oGjnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm RemoveThis @toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
> > news:newscache$41kjvj$qdp1$1@news.ipinc.net...
> >>
> >> <txjeep7 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>
news:25e85a06-e8d7-442c-95c3-bb92965427ed@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> >> > I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
> >> > Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
> >> > even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
> >> > Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.
> >> >
> >> > A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light
> >> > came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small
> >> > pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned
> >> > the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement
> >> > of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to
> >> > about $2200.
> >> >
> >> > The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been
> >> > used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
> >> > rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of
on
> >> > a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles, and that even
> >> > though it was a little bit out of warranty, I should seek redress
> >> > with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect. He
> >> > gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer
> >> > and show it to them; He stated that any competent mechanic could see
> >> > instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part. He also said
> >> > that in his years at GM, if a customer had brought in such a case,
> >> > they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even
> >> > full compensation for the repair job.
> >> >
> >> > A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise. The service
> >> > rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft, and more or less
> >> > accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil
> >> > (in fact, I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had
> >> > planned on keeping this vehicle forever.) He tossed me a card with
> >> > Chrysler's 1-800 number on it, and told me it was their problem.
> >> >
> >>
> >> As well he should. You didn't take your vehicle into his shop for a
> >> repair, you took it to a private mechanic. Why should he help you?
> >>
> >> > Not to be dissuaded, I called the number he provided. After much
> >> > time on hold and being transferred around, I was summarily told that
> >> > the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my
> >> > problem, tough luck. The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle
> >> > hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or
> >> > was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job. They had
> >> > no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I think your missing the point. If you had taken it to a Chrysler
dealer
> >> then Chrysler corp. would be assured that the camshaft had actually
> >> been in your car. I'll also bet that you didn't take your truck into
> >> the dealership for regular oil changes, you took it to your other
> >> mechanic or a quick oil change place.
> >
> > AGREED!!
> >>
> >> Here's the deal. You bought a new vehicle. You elected to deny
> >> the Chrysler dealer the profits for regular maintainence during the
> >> warranty period. Thus you deprived yourself of the chance of building
> >> a relationship of trust with the dealer.
> >
> > AGREED
> >>
> >> You don't seem to understand I think that car dealerships depend on
> >> the profits from the service department to stay in business. No car
> >> dealership could survive if they didn't do service work and just
depended
> >> on the margin on vehicle sales.
> >>
> >> You have a relationship of trust with your "family" mechanic that
> >> is a result of years of doing business with him. As a result he is
> >> willing to cut you deals and go to bat for you. If you had given
> >> the same car dealership that you bought your truck from all of
> >> the maintainence work, you would have that same relationship
> >> with them - and likely the dealership owner would go to bat for
> >> you against Chrysler.
> >
> > AGREED! Damn Ted your good!
> >>
> >> Let's see. Mfg recommended intervals for oil changes are 6K
> >> right? That's a total of 10 oil changes since it was new. Suppose
> >> the quickie lube does changes for $20 a change, and the dealership's
> >> obscene rates are $60 for an oil change. So it seems to me
> >> here that you saved $400 in oil changes by having the quickie lube
> >> do them - but you lost $2200 in an engine rebuild. Not a very
> >> smart thing I think.
> >>
> >> > It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine
> >> > fall apart at 59k miles
> >
> > The 5.2 and 5.9 is a very good engine and I was sorry to see it go.
> > Chrysler
> > doesnt know what the intake looked like before the repairs. It was more
> > then
> > likely sludged up and cleaned after the repairs.
> >>
> >> Under normal wear and tear I'd agree with this.
> >>
> >> > and the manufacturer would take zero
> >> > responsibility.
> >>
> >> Not appalling at all. How do they know how you were treating the
> >> vehicle unless you were visiting them all of the time for the little
> >> piddly stuff?
> >>
> >> > After decades of buying, owning, and driving
> >> > Chryslers, and after years of fighting the tide of my friends
> >> > switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience
I've
> >> > always had, I am now swearing off Chryslers forever. (I haven't
> >> > decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if
> >> > maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.) The new Challenger I had my eye
on
> >> > to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration. My
> >> > money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function
> >> > properly and that take responsibility for their products. From now
> >> > on, when people mention they're considering the purchase of a
> >> > Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out
> >> > of it.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Are you going to sell your truck? If not, then I would see how much
> >> more life you get out of it. What happens if you get another 160,000
> >> miles out of it without trouble, in which case what are you going to be
> >> saying about Chrysler vehicles then?
> >
> > He may get that if the oil is changed at the proper intervals
>
>
> What do you call "proper" intervals?
>

depends on the oil

> Because I bought a US spec 2007 Dodge Caravan 3.8 new and imported it.
>
> In the US and in the service book it says 3000 miles.
> The same vehicle (albiet with the 3.3 version of the same engine and
called
> the Chrysler Voyager) is available here in the UK but right hand drive.
> It has 12,000 miles between changes specified.
>

I believe that Europe has some silly law that mandates vehicle manufacturers
must manufacture engines that will work at minimal 12k mile intervals.
Someone
undoubtedly will correct me.

Here is my $0.02 for what it's worth. Oil has 2 components - a lubricating
component (ie: the oil) and a cleaning component (the detergent that
neutralizes
the sulfuric acid that forms from blowby that goes into the crankcase) The
oiling system in a vehicle has 1 major component - the filter.

There's 2 general types of oil filters out there. The "regular" ones and
the
"heavy duty" ones. The heavy duty ones have more filtering area and so
can fill up with more contaiments more slowly - you get more miles out of
them. Heavier filters in general are the longer-lasting ones. When the
oil is black the filter is full and is in bypass mode and not filtering.
The
oil FILTER must be changed then. When the oil molecules are "worn out"
the oil doesen't lubricate any more and must be changed. When the
detergent package is "full" it is no longer neutralizing acids and once more
the oil must be changed.

Unfortunately there is no visible indicator as to when the detergent package
is "full" or when the oil molecules are worn out, or when the oil is
contaminated
enough by metals, or when some of the other lubricant additives (like
molybendum)
are used up. HOWEVER the people that live and breath motor oil for a living
all claim that cars that have had oil analyses done on them every 3K miles
have
shown that the ADDITIVE PACKAGE itself can last AT LEAST 12,000 miles
and possibly much longer EVEN FOR standard NON-SYNTHETIC oil.

Unfortunately oil analysis is more expensive than
an oil change for a passenger car which is why nobody does them on passenger
cars - although, oil analysis is routinely done on commercial large engines
that
have a lot more oil in them.

My PERSONAL OPINION is that none of the "standard duty" cheap oil
filters can last 12,000 miles in a regular passenger car before going into
bypass.
That is based on my own observations of checking, feeling, and smelling the
oil in all the vehicles I've owned. I HAVE noted a MARKED difference in
the expensive heavy duty filters - think NAPA and WIX and Hastings - but
those filters cost at least double your standard Purolator. (Fram of course
I
wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole) I think in a newer low-mile engine with
little blowby that a high quality filter CAN last 12,000 miles - but I would
definitely continue to check the oil every 3,000 miles, not just for clarity
but for level. In an older high mile engine, I don't believe even a heavy
duty
filter can last that long.

>
> Personally I do it every 5k miles with Mobil 1 full synthetic 0w/40 rather
> than the fuel saving tap water thin 5w/20 specified for a bit of belt and
> braces peace of mind.
>

I think this is a tremendous waste of money. Synthetic oils last FAR LONGER
than standard oils. If I were you I would AT LEAST consider doing an
OIL FILTER change every 5K miles, and only do the oil change itself every
10K miles if your going to use Mobil 1. But I think that still, this is
tremendous
overkill for synthetic oil.

On my older engines (all of have over 100K on them) I do an oil change and
filter change every 3K miles. I use a standard non-heavy duty filter unless
I'm
able to find the heavy duty ones on sale. One of my engines consumes oil at
about a quart every 2K miles. The other - which has more miles on it -
consumes
oil at a rate of about a quart every 5K miles. I also use standard dino
oil -
and whenever I can get it on sale, I stock up.

Ted
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
> "Burgerman" <burgerman RemoveThis @ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:z4Noj.302$j95.265@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...

> ...I think this is a tremendous waste of money. Synthetic oils last FAR LONGER
> than standard oils. If I were you I would AT LEAST consider doing an
> OIL FILTER change every 5K miles, and only do the oil change itself every
> 10K miles if your going to use Mobil 1. But I think that still, this is
> tremendous
> overkill for synthetic oil.
>
> ...On my older engines (all of have over 100K on them) I do an oil change and
> filter change every 3K miles. I use a standard non-heavy duty filter unless
> I'm
> able to find the heavy duty ones on sale. One of my engines consumes oil at
> about a quart every 2K miles. The other - which has more miles on it -
> consumes
> oil at a rate of about a quart every 5K miles. I also use standard dino
> oil -
> and whenever I can get it on sale, I stock up.

(1) One irony in an older engine is that the fact that it needs a quart
or two added between changes means that the interval may be extended
somewhat. Of course that doesn't extend filter life being as it has had
to filter as much blowby regardless of any loss and makeup - but if one
were to use a quality filter and be changing filters at every change
rather than at every other change...

(2) At least one of the participants on the 300M Club forums
(http://300mclub.org/forums/index.php?sid=426876de8fc01e7e267dc347d2afee34)
has experimented quite a bit with different oils and filters utilizing
oil analysis by Blackstone Labs to see how far the change interval can
be reasonably extended (in his 300M, the way he uses it). The
information is there if anyone is interested (the forums' search engine
works well).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

>
> Here is my $0.02 for what it's worth. Oil has 2 components - a lubricating
> component (ie: the oil) and a cleaning component (the detergent that
> neutralizes
> the sulfuric acid that forms from blowby that goes into the crankcase) The
> oiling system in a vehicle has 1 major component - the filter.
>
> There's 2 general types of oil filters out there. The "regular" ones and
> the
> "heavy duty" ones. The heavy duty ones have more filtering area and so
> can fill up with more contaiments more slowly - you get more miles out of
> them. Heavier filters in general are the longer-lasting ones. When the
> oil is black the filter is full and is in bypass mode and not filtering.
> The
> oil FILTER must be changed then. When the oil molecules are "worn out"
> the oil doesen't lubricate any more and must be changed. When the
> detergent package is "full" it is no longer neutralizing acids and once more
> the oil must be changed.
>
> Unfortunately there is no visible indicator as to when the detergent package
> is "full" or when the oil molecules are worn out, or when the oil is
> contaminated
> enough by metals, or when some of the other lubricant additives (like
> molybendum)
> are used up. HOWEVER the people that live and breath motor oil for a living
> all claim that cars that have had oil analyses done on them every 3K miles
> have
> shown that the ADDITIVE PACKAGE itself can last AT LEAST 12,000 miles
> and possibly much longer EVEN FOR standard NON-SYNTHETIC oil.
>
> Unfortunately oil analysis is more expensive than
> an oil change for a passenger car which is why nobody does them on passenger
> cars - although, oil analysis is routinely done on commercial large engines
> that
> have a lot more oil in them.
>
> My PERSONAL OPINION is that none of the "standard duty" cheap oil
> filters can last 12,000 miles in a regular passenger car before going into
> bypass.
> That is based on my own observations of checking, feeling, and smelling the
> oil in all the vehicles I've owned. I HAVE noted a MARKED difference in
> the expensive heavy duty filters - think NAPA and WIX and Hastings - but
> those filters cost at least double your standard Purolator. (Fram of course
> I
> wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole) I think in a newer low-mile engine with
> little blowby that a high quality filter CAN last 12,000 miles - but I would
> definitely continue to check the oil every 3,000 miles, not just for clarity
> but for level. In an older high mile engine, I don't believe even a heavy
> duty
> filter can last that long.
>


Filters are cheap. Oil is cheap, too.

Every car engine should be designed to take a standard Ford
Motorcraft FL-1A filter. Two, three bucks.

But noooooo......

BTW, I'm a firm believer in the full flow and separate bypass filter.
I like the TP Franz filter. Some don't.
 >> Stay informed about: Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another.. 

WOW! I was considering a Dodge Caliber, but will buy a new Subaru when the
09 Forester hits the show rooms this spring My current Subaru has been
extremely reliable. Why roll the dice on a Mopar?
<txjeep7 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:25e85a06-e8d7-442c-95c3-bb92965427ed@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life.
> Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and
> even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge
> Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.
>
> A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light
> came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small
> pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned
> the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement
> of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to
> about $2200.
>
> The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been
> used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service
> rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on
> a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles, and that even
> though it was a little bit out of warranty, I should seek redress
> with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect. He
> gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer
> and show it to them; He stated that any competent mechanic could see
> instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part. He also said
> that in his years at GM, if a customer had brought in such a case,
> they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even
> full compensation for the repair job.
>
> A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise. The service
> rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft, and more or less
> accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil
> (in fact, I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had
> planned on keeping this vehicle forever.) He tossed me a card with
> Chrysler's 1-800 number on it, and told me it was their problem.
>
> Not to be dissuaded, I called the number he provided. After much
> time on hold and being transferred around, I was summarily told that
> the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my
> problem, tough luck. The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle
> hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or
> was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job. They had
> no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.
>
> It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine
> fall apart at 59k miles and the manufacturer would take zero
> responsibility. After decades of buying, owning, and driving
> Chryslers, and after years of fighting the tide of my friends
> switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience I've
> always had, I am now swearing off Chryslers forever. (I haven't
> decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if
> maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.) The new Challenger I had my eye on
> to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration. My
> money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function
> properly and that take responsibility for their products. From now
> on, when people mention they're considering the purchase of a
> Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out
> of it.
>
> I haven't entirely given up the hope of getting some kind of
> reimbursement from Chrysler. I intend to write my state attorney
> general and pursue this under lemon laws, and I suppose I'll send all
> the photos and receipts to Chrysler via certified mail, with a nice
> explanatory letter, and we'll see if they do anything. But I doubt
> it.
>