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Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines

 
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Jim Higgins

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Since: May 03, 2007
Posts: 757



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:08 pm
Post subject: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines
Archived from groups: alt>autos>gm (more info?)

Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines
http://tinyurl.com/3c5m6j

There is a new battle shaping up between General Motors (GM) and Ford
(F) over engine superiority. And it's not the race for who can achieve
the highest horsepower. With gas prices expected to stay above $3 per
gallon and pressure on automakers to reduce carbon dioxide emissions,
the new battle is over which companies can shrink their engines' sizes
and displacements without compromising driving performance or leaving
power-hungry customers behind.

What does this really mean? Gas-thirsty V-8 engines in passenger cars
and crossover SUVs will soon be an endangered species. This fall, Ford
will launch the first in a series of smaller engines it is calling gas
turbocharged direct-injection engines, or GTDI engines. These engines,
the first of which will appear in the 2009 Lincoln MKS sedan, will
achieve a 15% improvement in fuel economy over Ford's current engines.
Over the next five years, Ford expects to put 500,000 vehicles equipped
with the new engines on the road worldwide, with faster growth after that.

Automakers, especially U.S. companies, have been locked in a mindset of
"bigger and faster is always better" for decades. Indeed, horsepower
wars have been seen as a close cousin to the trend of bigger, thirstier
SUVs. The crescendo of this thinking was perhaps reached in 2003 when GM
showed a concept car at the Detroit Auto Show, the Cadillac Sixteen,
which achieved 1,000 hp. In a stark reversal, GM said this month that it
is scuttling its plans to build a new V-8 engine for its passenger cars
and will instead, like Ford, focus on high-performance V-6s. Pickup
trucks and SUVs will continue to offer V-8s.
Sales Boost?

The MKS sedan will be introduced with what Ford may call, for marketing
purposes, the "EcoBoost" 3.5-liter twin-turbo direct-injection V-6,
expected to produce 340 hp. This same engine will migrate to other Ford
models including the Taurus, Edge, and Lincoln MKX crossover SUVs in
2009. The boost in fuel economy compared with a V-80- is 2 mpg, or about
15%. Ford also plans to use the engine technology in four-cylinder
engines as a way to match performance with larger 3.0-liter,
six-cylinder engines while getting 5 mpg better fuel economy than the
V-6s achieve. And there is a 7% to 15% reduction in CO2 emissions per
vehicle with an EcoBoost engine.

The EcoBoost engines don't pack the "wow" factor of, say, hybrids, which
beat competitors in some cases by 15 to 20 mpg, or the promise of
plug-ins, which will be able to go up to 40 miles on an electric charge.
But Ford global product development chief Derrick Kuzak says Ford's new
gas engine strategy will deliver major savings of gasoline and carbon
dioxide emissions because of the millions of vehicles Ford sells
worldwide each year.

Kuzak, a soft-spoken man who is a contrast to many Detroit product
executives who trumpet the latest horsepower boost, hydrogen car, or
futuristic design, is hoping that Ford's engine strategy will appeal to
customers who do their homework on the Internet. According to Kuzak, a
customer's initial investment in EcoBoost technology, which will cost a
little more than standard engines, will be regained through fuel
savings—less trips to the pump—in just 2.5 years. "That compares with
more than seven years to recoup the price of a clean diesel engine and
more than 11 years to get back the investment in a hybrid."
Advocacy and Marketing

Part of the appeal of hybrids and diesels, though, up to now is "badge
appeal." Buyers of Toyota's (TM) Prius and Volkswagen's (VLKAY) TDI
diesel vehicles are not just consumers, they tend to be advocates. They
not only want to be seen in their more fuel-efficient cars, they try to
convert their friends. Ford's new chief marketing officer, Jim Farley,
who came to the automaker after a career at Toyota, says marketing of
the new technology will be key to success. "People will have to feel
they are doing something for the planet as well as for themselves, and
we have to figure out the right name, badging, and advertising to convey
that," says Farley.

Dumping V-8 engines in passenger cars, especially premium and luxury
cars, is a marketing risk, but perhaps one whose time has come. For two
decades, Honda's (HMC) premium division, Acura, has not offered a V-8 in
its flagship sedan, the RL. Before that, the Acura Legend sedan only
went as high as a V-6. American Honda chief Tom Elliott has said on more
than one occasion that the U.S. management team for the Japanese
automaker has repeatedly made the case, to no avail, to their Japanese
parent for a V-8 for both the RL and the Honda Ridgeline pickup.

The RL sold an anemic 6,262 units in 2007, down 45% from 2006. The Lexus
LS (BusinessWeek.com, 2/14/07), which only comes in a V-8, by contrast,
sold 35,000 units, up 75% from the year before.

Many buyers just can't accept that smaller is better. Ford, for example,
when it launches a redesigned F-Series pickup this year, will no longer
offer a V-6 engine, which had such a low purchase rate that Ford
couldn't justify sticking the engines at the factories.
A New Era

Oddly, though, GM is seeing signs that its Honda V-6 engine strategy is
pointing the way to a new era. The new direct-injected V-6 in the 2008
Cadillac produces 305 hp, while its Northstar V-8 in the Cadillac DTS
(BusinessWeek.com, 1/19/07) generates only 275. The fuel economy of the
DTS, a slightly larger car, is 15 mpg city/23 highway, while the CTS
(BusinessWeek.com, 10/22/07) is rated 17/26. The same high-performance
V-6 could go into the DTS and improve fuel economy while boosting
horsepower.

The Lexus LS sedan only comes in a V-8, generates 380 hp, and gets 16/24
mpg. Lexus clearly engineers its sedans for power and fuel economy in a
smarter way than Detroit automakers.

Ford, which is launching gas-electric hybrid versions of the Ford Fusion
and Mercury Milan later this year, is not making big promises of
delivering more hybrids or plug-in cars at a certain date. But it is
working on other improvements to whittle away at fuel economy. Kuzak
says between 2012 and 2020, Ford figures to reduce the weight of
vehicles between 250 lb. and 750 lb., depending on the vehicle, without
compromising safety. Such savings can add a couple of miles to each
gallon of gas. "No automaker can wait around for technology to arrive;
we have to make the most of what we know and have now," says Kuzak.

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Nate Nagel

External


Since: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 329



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Jim Higgins wrote:
> Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines
> http://tinyurl.com/3c5m6j
>
> There is a new battle shaping up between General Motors (GM) and Ford
> (F) over engine superiority. And it's not the race for who can achieve
> the highest horsepower. With gas prices expected to stay above $3 per
> gallon and pressure on automakers to reduce carbon dioxide emissions,
> the new battle is over which companies can shrink their engines' sizes
> and displacements without compromising driving performance or leaving
> power-hungry customers behind.
>
> What does this really mean? Gas-thirsty V-8 engines in passenger cars
> and crossover SUVs will soon be an endangered species. This fall, Ford
> will launch the first in a series of smaller engines it is calling gas
> turbocharged direct-injection engines, or GTDI engines. These engines,
> the first of which will appear in the 2009 Lincoln MKS sedan, will
> achieve a 15% improvement in fuel economy over Ford's current engines.
> Over the next five years, Ford expects to put 500,000 vehicles equipped
> with the new engines on the road worldwide, with faster growth after that.

<snip>

that's great, but what about NVH?

Why is everyone concentrating on V6 engines and ignoring inlines and boxers?

I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they
seem fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows
(in the seat of my pants.) I'd be perfectly happy with an inline or
boxer six, or even a boxer four. Even the inline four in my 944 is
smoother than many V6's (of course, it needs two balance shafts to
accomplish that...)

Whatever happened to the inline six for the Trailblazer?

nate

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Brent

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Since: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Nate Nagel wrote:
> I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they
> seem fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows
> (in the seat of my pants.)

Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10 best
motors list for 15 years straight or so.

b
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80 Knight

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Since: Mar 11, 2007
Posts: 228



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:26 am
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Brent" <none.DeleteThis@none.com> wrote in message
news:47831a56$0$9815$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>> I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they seem
>> fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows (in the
>> seat of my pants.)
>
> Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10 best
> motors list for 15 years straight or so.

I'll take my 3800 II L67 over any other engine any day. The 3800 design is
listed as one of the best engines of the 20th century.
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Brent

External


Since: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

80 Knight wrote:
> "Brent" <none DeleteThis @none.com> wrote in message
> news:47831a56$0$9815$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they seem
>>> fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows (in the
>>> seat of my pants.)
>> Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10 best
>> motors list for 15 years straight or so.
>
> I'll take my 3800 II L67 over any other engine any day. The 3800 design is
> listed as one of the best engines of the 20th century.
>
>
Just saying that 306hp/270 torque DOHC motor is amazingly smooth and
pulls like a beech all the way to 7000 rpm. Very torquey as well.

The 3.8 is a pretty good motor. Esp the old turbo 3.8 in the Grand Nat'l

Here is a link to the Ward's winners, 13th straight year for the VQ35

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/

b
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pj

External


Since: Oct 18, 2007
Posts: 62



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

80 Knight wrote:
> "Brent" <none DeleteThis @none.com> wrote in message
> news:47831a56$0$9815$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>> I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they seem
>>> fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows (in the
>>> seat of my pants.)
>> Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10 best
>> motors list for 15 years straight or so.
>
> I'll take my 3800 II L67 over any other engine any day. The 3800 design is
> listed as one of the best engines of the 20th century.
>
>

I tag along on the 3800-II. Have owned that
engine in a Regal and a couple of LeSabres.

While not the smoothest idling engine, it's nice
on the road and produces better highway mileage
than advertised by GM or the EPA -- on regular gas.

Turned in a leased G35 and didn't replace it.
Poor highway mileage, need for premium etc.

However, Nissan's specs are impressive.

3800 loafs along at 65mph with turns well below
the Nissan. Friction increases with the square
of velocity--multiply that by the extra bearing
area in Nissan's overhead cam layout and it's
easy to figure why gas mileage is 20-30% better
in the LeSabre.

Agree on the virtues of straight-6 engines.
Issue though is that they tend to increase the
weight of the automobile.
--
pj
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Nate Nagel

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Since: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 329



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

80 Knight wrote:
> "Brent" <none.DeleteThis@none.com> wrote in message
> news:47831a56$0$9815$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>
>>Nate Nagel wrote:
>>
>>>I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they seem
>>>fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows (in the
>>>seat of my pants.)
>>
>>Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10 best
>>motors list for 15 years straight or so.
>
>
> I'll take my 3800 II L67 over any other engine any day. The 3800 design is
> listed as one of the best engines of the 20th century.
>
>

I've ridden in a new-ish G35, I assume that is the engine the first
responder is talking about, and yes, it was smooth but still sounded
like a V-6 so it turned me off somewhat. The 3800 is a good engine, but
it isn't creamy smooth like an inline nor does it have a particularly
pleasant exhaust sound. The 3400 in my Impala... not a big fan,
although I haven't had any of the intake manifold issues (knock on
wood.) It's very loud for its power output, and not smooth at all.

The straight six in my old BMW 535i... yeah baby.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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Nate Nagel

External


Since: Nov 03, 2007
Posts: 329



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Brent wrote:
> 80 Knight wrote:
>
>> "Brent" <none.DeleteThis@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:47831a56$0$9815$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>>
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they
>>>> seem fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it
>>>> shows (in the seat of my pants.)
>>>
>>> Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10
>>> best motors list for 15 years straight or so.
>>
>>
>> I'll take my 3800 II L67 over any other engine any day. The 3800
>> design is listed as one of the best engines of the 20th century.
>>
> Just saying that 306hp/270 torque DOHC motor is amazingly smooth and
> pulls like a beech all the way to 7000 rpm. Very torquey as well.
>
> The 3.8 is a pretty good motor. Esp the old turbo 3.8 in the Grand Nat'l
>
> Here is a link to the Ward's winners, 13th straight year for the VQ35
>
> http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/
>
> b

funny that the #1 on that list is this one:

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/audi_2l_i-4/

I used to have a GTI 1.8T simply because of that engine's predecessor.
The chassis was nothing to write home about - very refined and
comfortable, but not a real GTI - but that engine could put a stupid
grin on your face at any time.

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/bmw_3l_i-6/

I noticed two different BMW straight sixes on the list... and rightfully
so. I wish GM, Ford, et. al. would stop looking to Japan for their
design cues and concentrate on the engine architectures that they used
to be rightfully famous for, namely straight sixes and V-8s (although
the latter are probably permanently out of fashion for all but trucks
and performance cars.) Too bad BMW is already doing it better Sad

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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80 Knight

External


Since: Mar 11, 2007
Posts: 228



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Nate Nagel" <njnagel.RemoveThis@roosters.net> wrote in message
news:fm14t101stn@news2.newsguy.com...
> 80 Knight wrote:
>> "Brent" <none.RemoveThis@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:47831a56$0$9815$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>>
>>>Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they
>>>>seem fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows
>>>>(in the seat of my pants.)
>>>
>>>Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10 best
>>>motors list for 15 years straight or so.
>>
>>
>> I'll take my 3800 II L67 over any other engine any day. The 3800 design
>> is listed as one of the best engines of the 20th century.
>
> I've ridden in a new-ish G35, I assume that is the engine the first
> responder is talking about, and yes, it was smooth but still sounded like
> a V-6 so it turned me off somewhat. The 3800 is a good engine, but it
> isn't creamy smooth like an inline nor does it have a particularly
> pleasant exhaust sound.

That depends on the configuration of the exhaust system. Since I don't
"riceout" my car, mine is stock, but I find the sound quite nice. Though, I
think I still miss the sound of the old Pontiac 6000's that we used to have.
I don't know what it was, but if you could keep the exhaust from rusting
out, it was one of the best sounding cars I have ever driven. As for the
smoothness, I can see where you are coming from. I personally think the L67
is perfect, but then again, out of the 11 cars I have owned, only 1 had an
engine that wasn't in the 3.1/3.4/3.8L family, so I guess you could say I am
used to it. The car that didn't have that type of engine was my old '82
Trans Am. That car had the good 'ol 305 with a 4-speed manual. Roughly
86,404 KM's (roughly 54,000 miles) on it the day I bought it in 1999.
Everything original, right down to the battery. Man I loved that car. Last
time I talked to the current owner, he was getting along quite well with his
"Knight Rider" conversion of the car.

> The 3400 in my Impala... not a big fan, although I haven't had any of the
> intake manifold issues (knock on wood.) It's very loud for its power
> output, and not smooth at all.

Yup, those 3400's can be a pain in the ass. My sister has one in her '03
Grand Am. The thing can move, but you sure hear it. She is almost at
100,000 KM's (62,000 miles), and hasn't had the intake issues either (knock
on wood).

> The straight six in my old BMW 535i... yeah baby.

Now that sir, is a totally different ball game. <g>
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80 Knight

External


Since: Mar 11, 2007
Posts: 228



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Detroit's Battle for Better, Smaller Engines [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Brent" <none DeleteThis @none.com> wrote in message
news:478409b5$0$9789$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
> 80 Knight wrote:
>> "Brent" <none DeleteThis @none.com> wrote in message
>> news:47831a56$0$9815$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com...
>>> Nate Nagel wrote:
>>>> I have to admit that I don't like V6 engines but simply because they
>>>> seem fundamentally compromised from a balance standpoint, and it shows
>>>> (in the seat of my pants.)
>>> Have you driven a Nissan VQ35DE? One smooth motor, listed on the 10 best
>>> motors list for 15 years straight or so.
>>
>> I'll take my 3800 II L67 over any other engine any day. The 3800 design
>> is listed as one of the best engines of the 20th century.
> Just saying that 306hp/270 torque DOHC motor is amazingly smooth and pulls
> like a beech all the way to 7000 rpm. Very torquey as well.

Sounds pretty impressive. What kind of gas mileage do they get?

> The 3.8 is a pretty good motor. Esp the old turbo 3.8 in the Grand Nat'l

I've never been in a Grand National, that I can recall. A few Regals,
dressed up to look like the National's, but they all had the standard 3.8.
An old neighbour did have an '87 (or so) National though. I didn't know him
well enough to have rode in the car, but the thing sure as hell sounded
nice.

> Here is a link to the Ward's winners, 13th straight year for the VQ35
>
> http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/

Thanks for the link. Looks like for those into Nissan's, this is the engine
to go with.
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