Corolla, Camry, or Prius?

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 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

On Jun 2, 1:31 pm, "Cathy F." <clfrc....DeleteThis@adelphiadotdashdot.net> wrote:
> "Mark A" <nob....DeleteThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:72M0k.1944$UF5.341@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>
> > "Ajanta" <aja....DeleteThis@null.void> wrote in message
> >news:020620080054579926%ajanta@null.void...
> >> Between Corolla and Camry the equation is pretty clear to me. The
> >> Corolla is the clear better value to me, but if my SO wants bigger back
> >> seat for parents for 2 days/year they drive with us, that's a different
> >> issue and only we can sort it out.
>
> >> However, my math gets confused with Prius in the mix, because it is
> >> expensive, usually wait-listed, but also gives much better mpg. I also
> >> don't know long term maintenance costs relative to other models: more,
> >> less, about the same?
>
> > How big is the rear seat in a Prius?
>
> Big.
>
> Also, my understanding is that
>
> > batteries eat up a lot of trunk space. Not really designed for touring.
>
> ??  Looks plenty big back there to me.  Can't see that a Corolla's trunk
> would provide more room, at any rate.
>
>  My
>
> > guess is that 2009 Corolla is bigger than 2008.
>
> > Prius usually goes for at least list price (probably more) these days,
>
> I don't think one has to pay a surcharge any longer; the wait lists are
> *much* shorter than before, with more cars being made & delivered.  But
> realistically can't go in expecting to bargain down much, if any, from the
> MSRP either.
>
> while
>
> > you should be able to get at least $1000 off list of a Corolla.
>
> I paid $200 - 400 over dealer invoice for my last 2 Corollas (LEs).  OTOH, I
> went through 3 bargaining sessions each time, until I wore them down & they
> realized I really was going to walk yet again if they didn't come down far
> enough.
>
>
>
> > No one really knows about maintenance. The big issue is the batteries and
> > when they need to be replaced. Some have estimated that it costs 10K
>
> Yeah, scaremongers.
>
>  to
>
> > replace the batteries, but that will probably come down in cost. But no
> > one knows for sure how long they last.
>
> Not a potential issue unless you plan to jeep the car for more than 8 - 10
> years; long warranty (8 - 10 years, dep. on state) on the battery.
>
> Cathy
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> Not a potential issue unless you plan to jeep the car f or more
than 8 - 10
> years; long warranty (8 - 10 years, dep. on state) on the
battery.

So you feel when it's 5 to 8 years old the history of batteries
in general and the specific age of your battery won't have an
effect on the sale of your used vehicle? Do you plan on selling
to a deaf, dumb and blind person? Or perhaps you you'd plan
on selling to someone who had the misfortune not to know the
important details of your vehicle? Sounds pretty low to me.

dennis
in nca
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

rigger wrote:

> So you feel when it's 5 to 8 years old the history of batteries
> in general and the specific age of your battery won't have an
> effect on the sale of your used vehicle? Do you plan on selling
> to a deaf, dumb and blind person? Or perhaps you you'd plan
> on selling to someone who had the misfortune not to know the
> important details of your vehicle? Sounds pretty low to me.
>
> dennis
> in nca

The way Toyota has designed the charging system, and has programmed the
hybrid drive, even old batteries won't have a huge effect on the MPG.

Remember, the Prius only can go about a mile on batteries only, because
the programming neither lets them discharge very far, nor charge to the
maximum. Even if the batteries only have half their capacity remaining
after 5-8 years will be sufficient. Maybe the programming of the hybrid
drive actually takes the age of the batteries into account by allowing
the battery to discharge further down as the capacity of the battery is
reduced.

The bottom line is that even though rather old hybrids are more likely
to have battery problems, most buyers will be too clueless to realize
this, so this probably won't affect the resale value too much.
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

On Jun 3, 1:45 pm, "Cathy F." <clfrc... RemoveThis @adelphiadotdashdot.net> wrote:
> "rigger" <dg... RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:38526642-0364-4b7e-a1c4-1f08d602bd1b@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 2, 1:31 pm, "Cathy F." <clfrc... RemoveThis @adelphiadotdashdot.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Mark A" <nob... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:72M0k.1944$UF5.341@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>
> > > "Ajanta" <aja... RemoveThis @null.void> wrote in message
> > >news:020620080054579926%ajanta@null.void...
> > >> Between Corolla and Camry the equation is pretty clear to me. The
> > >> Corolla is the clear better value to me, but if my SO wants bigger back
> > >> seat for parents for 2 days/year they drive with us, that's a different
> > >> issue and only we can sort it out.
>
> > >> However, my math gets confused with Prius in the mix, because it is
> > >> expensive, usually wait-listed, but also gives much better mpg. I also
> > >> don't know long term maintenance costs relative to other models: more,
> > >> less, about the same?
>
> > > How big is the rear seat in a Prius?
>
> > Big.
>
> > Also, my understanding is that
>
> > > batteries eat up a lot of trunk space. Not really designed for touring.
>
> > ?? Looks plenty big back there to me. Can't see that a Corolla's trunk
> > would provide more room, at any rate.
>
> > My
>
> > > guess is that 2009 Corolla is bigger than 2008.
>
> > > Prius usually goes for at least list price (probably more) these days,
>
> > I don't think one has to pay a surcharge any longer; the wait lists are
> > *much* shorter than before, with more cars being made & delivered. But
> > realistically can't go in expecting to bargain down much, if any, from the
> > MSRP either.
>
> > while
>
> > > you should be able to get at least $1000 off list of a Corolla.
>
> > I paid $200 - 400 over dealer invoice for my last 2 Corollas (LEs). OTOH,
> > I
> > went through 3 bargaining sessions each time, until I wore them down &
> > they
> > realized I really was going to walk yet again if they didn't come down far
> > enough.
>
> > > No one really knows about maintenance. The big issue is the batteries
> > > and
> > > when they need to be replaced. Some have estimated that it costs 10K
>
> > Yeah, scaremongers.
>
> > to
>
> > > replace the batteries, but that will probably come down in cost. But no
> > > one knows for sure how long they last.
>
> > Not a potential issue unless you plan to jeep the car for more than 8 - 10
> > years; long warranty (8 - 10 years, dep. on state) on the battery.
>
> > Cathy
>
> > - Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Not a potential issue unless you plan to jeep the car f or more
> than 8 - 10
> > years; long warranty (8 - 10 years, dep. on state) on the
> battery.
>
> So you feel when it's 5 to 8 years old the history of batteries
> in general and the specific age of your battery won't have an
> effect on the sale of your used vehicle? Do you plan on selling
> to a deaf, dumb and blind person? Or perhaps you you'd plan
> on selling to someone who had the misfortune not to know the
> important details of your vehicle? Sounds pretty low to me.
> ``````````````````````````````
> Looking at the resale/trade-in figures for '04 Priuses this year, they've
> held way up there. And so far there have been no major or wide-spread
> battery issues/concerns, even with the '03 model of the previous generation
> of the Prius that I know of. So would I be worried about the battery & its
> general depreciation when I was ready to sell or trade-in after ~6 years, &
> what the new owner would be facing? Nope. AFAICT, based on its history so
> far - along wuith the warranty (10 years for the battery in NY), they'd be
> getting a good car. *And*, IIRC, the battery's warranty travels to the new
> owner. Considering the most I've ever put on a car has been ~55K miles, so
> that aspect not an issue, either.
>
> Cathy
>
> ````````````````````````````
>
> dennis
> in nca



FWIW, we still have our '96 Camry 12 years after we bought it, and
it's got 152k miles on it.

It's gone through at least 3 lead-acid batteries. (Not that I'm
implying the Camry's alternator is as good as a Prius' electronic
charging circuitry.)

If we wanted to ditch our cars when they hit 50k miles, we'd buy
Fords.

Michael
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

Mark A wrote:

> Prius usually goes for at least list price (probably more) these days, while
> you should be able to get at least $1000 off list of a Corolla.

In my area the Prius is no longer selling for MSRP or over MSRP. That
ended when California reached the limit of the HOV lane stickers that
they were issuing. Demand went way down after that. The Prius is selling
for under MSRP, but for more than dealer invoice. The Corolla still
sells for well under dealer invoice, as does the Camry.
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

"rigger" <dgrup RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:38526642-0364-4b7e-a1c4-1f08d602bd1b@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 2, 1:31 pm, "Cathy F." <clfrc... RemoveThis @adelphiadotdashdot.net> wrote:
> "Mark A" <nob... RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:72M0k.1944$UF5.341@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>
> > "Ajanta" <aja... RemoveThis @null.void> wrote in message
> >news:020620080054579926%ajanta@null.void...
> >> Between Corolla and Camry the equation is pretty clear to me. The
> >> Corolla is the clear better value to me, but if my SO wants bigger back
> >> seat for parents for 2 days/year they drive with us, that's a different
> >> issue and only we can sort it out.
>
> >> However, my math gets confused with Prius in the mix, because it is
> >> expensive, usually wait-listed, but also gives much better mpg. I also
> >> don't know long term maintenance costs relative to other models: more,
> >> less, about the same?
>
> > How big is the rear seat in a Prius?
>
> Big.
>
> Also, my understanding is that
>
> > batteries eat up a lot of trunk space. Not really designed for touring.
>
> ?? Looks plenty big back there to me. Can't see that a Corolla's trunk
> would provide more room, at any rate.
>
> My
>
> > guess is that 2009 Corolla is bigger than 2008.
>
> > Prius usually goes for at least list price (probably more) these days,
>
> I don't think one has to pay a surcharge any longer; the wait lists are
> *much* shorter than before, with more cars being made & delivered. But
> realistically can't go in expecting to bargain down much, if any, from the
> MSRP either.
>
> while
>
> > you should be able to get at least $1000 off list of a Corolla.
>
> I paid $200 - 400 over dealer invoice for my last 2 Corollas (LEs). OTOH,
> I
> went through 3 bargaining sessions each time, until I wore them down &
> they
> realized I really was going to walk yet again if they didn't come down far
> enough.
>
>
>
> > No one really knows about maintenance. The big issue is the batteries
> > and
> > when they need to be replaced. Some have estimated that it costs 10K
>
> Yeah, scaremongers.
>
> to
>
> > replace the batteries, but that will probably come down in cost. But no
> > one knows for sure how long they last.
>
> Not a potential issue unless you plan to jeep the car for more than 8 - 10
> years; long warranty (8 - 10 years, dep. on state) on the battery.
>
> Cathy
>
>
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> Not a potential issue unless you plan to jeep the car f or more
than 8 - 10
> years; long warranty (8 - 10 years, dep. on state) on the
battery.

So you feel when it's 5 to 8 years old the history of batteries
in general and the specific age of your battery won't have an
effect on the sale of your used vehicle? Do you plan on selling
to a deaf, dumb and blind person? Or perhaps you you'd plan
on selling to someone who had the misfortune not to know the
important details of your vehicle? Sounds pretty low to me.
``````````````````````````````
Looking at the resale/trade-in figures for '04 Priuses this year, they've
held way up there. And so far there have been no major or wide-spread
battery issues/concerns, even with the '03 model of the previous generation
of the Prius that I know of. So would I be worried about the battery & its
general depreciation when I was ready to sell or trade-in after ~6 years, &
what the new owner would be facing? Nope. AFAICT, based on its history so
far - along wuith the warranty (10 years for the battery in NY), they'd be
getting a good car. *And*, IIRC, the battery's warranty travels to the new
owner. Considering the most I've ever put on a car has been ~55K miles, so
that aspect not an issue, either.

Cathy

````````````````````````````

dennis
in nca
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

<mrdarrett.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:161f7201-90a2-4385-93d4-8cced7031c87@q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> FWIW, we still have our '96 Camry 12 years after we bought it, and
> it's got 152k miles on it.
>
> It's gone through at least 3 lead-acid batteries. (Not that I'm
> implying the Camry's alternator is as good as a Prius' electronic
> charging circuitry.)
>
> If we wanted to ditch our cars when they hit 50k miles, we'd buy
> Fords.
>
> Michael

The battery that runs the Prius electric motor is not lead acid like your
starting battery. It is a NiMH battery pack.
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

"SMS" <scharf.steven DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote in message
news:Lqj1k.2621$89.1374@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Mark A wrote:
>
>> Prius usually goes for at least list price (probably more) these days,
>> while you should be able to get at least $1000 off list of a Corolla.
>
> In my area the Prius is no longer selling for MSRP or over MSRP. That
> ended when California reached the limit of the HOV lane stickers that they
> were issuing. Demand went way down after that. The Prius is selling for
> under MSRP, but for more than dealer invoice. The Corolla still sells for
> well under dealer invoice, as does the Camry.

This last sentence... the dealers take a loss on every Camry & Corolla they
sell? This I find difficult to believe.


Cathy
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

Cathy F. wrote:
>> The Corolla still sells for
>> well under dealer invoice, as does the Camry.
>
> This last sentence... the dealers take a loss on every Camry & Corolla they
> sell? This I find difficult to believe.

The invoice price is not the same as dealer cost. The dealer is not
losing any money when selling under invoice.

Even without any factory to dealer incentives, the dealer cost is 5%
less than the base invoice cost for Toyotas (2% holdback, 2% TDA (Toyota
Dealer Advertising), 1% WFR (wholesale financial reserve). Toyota is
rather unique in that they base the kickbacks on the wholesale price,
not the MSRP. Dealers in most areas have to take that TDA and contribute
some or all of it to the corporative advertising program for their
region, so in reality the end up with 3% of a kickback.

Do you think when a dealer advertises "below invoice" that they are
actually losing money on each unit they sell? It doesn't work that way.
Besides the kickbacks, there are often extra factory to dealer
incentives that allow below-invoice pricing.

Invoice has become the price to bargain down from in the U.S., except on
very high demand, low supply vehicles. The last two Toyota's I bought I
paid well under invoice. In one case it was more than $1500 under
invoice (a Camry).

You have to laugh when you see someone claiming that they got a great
deal on a vehicle because they got it for $200 over invoice. Very few
vehicles require such a high price. The Honda Odyssey used to command a
big premium, as did the Toyota Prius during the time there were carpool
stickers available.

Right now you can probably buy one of the large SUVs for many thousands
of dollars under factory invoice/
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

"SMS" <scharf.steven DeleteThis @geemail.com> wrote in message
news:CEk1k.7468$Ri.3845@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Cathy F. wrote:
>>> The Corolla still sells for well under dealer invoice, as does the
>>> Camry.
>>
>> This last sentence... the dealers take a loss on every Camry & Corolla
>> they sell? This I find difficult to believe.
>
> The invoice price is not the same as dealer cost. The dealer is not losing
> any money when selling under invoice.
>
> Even without any factory to dealer incentives, the dealer cost is 5% less
> than the base invoice cost for Toyotas (2% holdback, 2% TDA (Toyota Dealer
> Advertising), 1% WFR (wholesale financial reserve). Toyota is rather
> unique in that they base the kickbacks on the wholesale price, not the
> MSRP. Dealers in most areas have to take that TDA and contribute some or
> all of it to the corporative advertising program for their region, so in
> reality the end up with 3% of a kickback.
>
> Do you think when a dealer advertises "below invoice" that they are
> actually losing money on each unit they sell? It doesn't work that way.
> Besides the kickbacks, there are often extra factory to dealer incentives
> that allow below-invoice pricing.
>
> Invoice has become the price to bargain down from in the U.S., except on
> very high demand, low supply vehicles. The last two Toyota's I bought I
> paid well under invoice. In one case it was more than $1500 under invoice
> (a Camry).
>
> You have to laugh when you see someone claiming that they got a great deal
> on a vehicle because they got it for $200 over invoice.

Okay, then laugh at me. But I'll take that hard-bargained-for $200 over
what was invoice price way before I'll pay anything *near* MSRP for a
Corolla. How many people walk into a dealership, see something they like on
the lot, & that day agree to pay whatever the sales person says is the
lowest they'll go? (Which is baloney.)

Cathy


Very few
> vehicles require such a high price. The Honda Odyssey used to command a
> big premium, as did the Toyota Prius during the time there were carpool
> stickers available.
>
> Right now you can probably buy one of the large SUVs for many thousands of
> dollars under factory invoice/
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius? 

Cathy F. wrote:

> Okay, then laugh at me. But I'll take that hard-bargained-for $200 over
> what was invoice price way before I'll pay anything *near* MSRP for a
> Corolla. How many people walk into a dealership, see something they like on
> the lot, & that day agree to pay whatever the sales person says is the
> lowest they'll go? (Which is baloney.)
>
> Cathy

You shouldn't have to bargain at all for $200 over invoice. For Camrys
and Corollas the dealers often advertise prices lower than this in their
"all in stock at this price" sales.

Actually I shouldn't laugh. I have no idea where you are located. It's
very possible that California dealers accept lower prices for Toyotas
than dealers in whatever state you're in. It's extremely competitive
here, even more so in southern California than northern California. So
maybe we're just spoiled out here. Don't worry, our high sales tax makes
up for the lower prices.
 >> Stay informed about: Corolla, Camry, or Prius?