Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better

Commentator wrote:
> Jim Warman wrote:
>> Good point....
>>
>> Last summer, I bought an 05 Mustang convertible for my loving
>> bride.... Late in the summer, we were treated to more than our
>> "usual" share of rain.... All this rain made it difficult to drive
>> with the top down.... not too bad on the highway, but a real booger
>> in town....
>> I demanded that this problem be addressed under warranty... and have
>> yet to have a satisfactory response.... Quite the opposite... they
>> allowed the rain to turn to snow...... And now it is IMPOSSIBLE to
>> retract the top....
>> I'll bet that if I had purchased a Japanese convertible, I would have
>> none of these concerns....
>
> My first Canyon ('04) suffered what was a common problem on that first
> year's model - missing sealant around the firewall, allowing water into the
> cab. Of course that issue hit their problems per hundred stats, but once
> fixed is done and has no impact on reliability.
>
> There is no doubt that in general terms the imports have historically been
> way in front on fit and finish. That contributes to their better stats.
> But that does not translate into reliability.
>
> On another note, resale value is in large part a function of # available,
> not just reliable. Because GM has historically moved so many vehicles in
> fleet sales, and because they have generally had such a large market share,
> all of their vehicles are much more plentiful in the resale market, thereby
> pushing down prices, regardless of reliability.
>
> Over the last decade, reliability gaps have narrowed, and continue to do so,
> thereby throwing into question the price premium the imports continue to
> charge. Yet the perception continues to be that NA cars are substantially
> worse.
>
> I am reminded of something I read a couple of years ago, where Saturn owners
> surveyed as being much more satisfied with their vehicles and much more
> likely to purchase another Saturn than was the case for other NA cars. Yet
> the stats showed that they were no better, in some cases worse, than any of
> the NA vehicles.
>
> There is a huge perception issue out there that if anything a bigger
> problem for Detroit than their actual products.


I think this has a lot to do with the way the manufacturers
dealers treat you. I have owned GM, Ford, Dodge and Toyota vehicles. All
of them had their problems including the Toyota which had the most major
problem.
The truck was a 97 Tacoma 4x4 extended cab with a 4 banger and a
manual tranny. After I had only had it a month and with less than 3000
miles on it the transmission started to howl worse than a S. Dallas
hooker. I took the truck to the Toyota dealer who immediately put the
truck in the shop and paid for a rental car for me. The problem turned
out to be a bearing in the transmission that was bad. However instead of
just fixing this bearing the dealer decided to order a whole new tranny
from Japan. I was told it would take 3 months to get the new tranny and
put it in my truck. The dealer said Toyota would pay for my rental car
the entire time which they did. They wanted to take care of their
customer and I was really impressed.
Now I also owned a Dodge Ram PU and a Chevrolet Silverado PU that
both vibrated at highway speeds. They were horrible to drive. And both
trucks pulled to the right from day 1 of ownership. Each and every time
I took these trucks to the dealer I got the same response from them.
"Unable to duplicate." I even had the Dodge service adviser ride with me
and he noticed the vibration too. Mechanic said "unable to duplicate"
every time.
Now do I think Japanese vehicles are better than American vehicles?
No. However I do remember how Toyota went way above and beyond what they
had to do to make me happy. And I remember this when it comes time to
buy another vehicle. And I'm sure I'm not alone.
And about Consumer Reports reporting that Japanese vehicles are
better. I take what Consumer Reports says with a grain of salt. They
have hated American cars for years and have always been biased towards
Japanese vehicles.
I inherited a 1990 GMC Sierra with 5.7l and auto. The truck has 140K
miles on it. This truck looks and drives like the day it was driven off
the dealer's lot. The only things replaced were an alternator and the
battery. It is one good truck. I think you can get good and bad in any
brand. But it's how the manufacturers treat you that sticks in the mind
of the consumer. I know I sure do.

Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

DeserTBoB wrote:

> The Chinese? If the US Big 3 gets their act together, they won't have
> a chance. Already, Hyundai, after battling two decades of really bad
> reputation, is already having a hard time in the US market and has to
> keep their prices artificially low to sell Rios and the like. Once
> the word gets out to the 'tard buyers, the era of Japanese domination
> could well be over, and the new Asian Johnny-come-latelies could have
> some serious issues competing. The low US dollar right now also is
> Detroit's best friend...IF they'd quit "off shoring" all their
> production! GM's already using Mexican drive trains in Saturns, which
> will probably kill the line off in the next couple of years, anyway.
>
> Another Roger Smith wet dream collapses.


Do you mean Kia? The Rio is made by Kia. Kia quality is in the hole.
But everything I've heard about Hyundai is that they have turned
themselves around including their quality.

Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

Global warming is based on the average yearly temperature rising a few
tenths of a degree/year. There are times in the past where the
temperature of the earth changed over 10 degrees/year and there was no
industrial manufacturing at that time.

Alot of money is spending on trying to solve global warming, which in
reality has no short term solution. No money is being spent on adapting
to the effects of global warming in the mean time which would help the
population survive the short term effets.

Lets look at the Far East they signed the recent air quality treaty, but
with the stipulation if they do not make an effort to meet the
standards they will not be punished. One of the reason's the US didn't
sign it.



Jeff wrote:
> Mr4701 wrote:
>
> <...>
>
>> Some people still deny global warming. You cannot convince everyone
>> that GMC's and other American made cars fall apart so easy.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

Mike Marlow wrote:

> "Mr4701" <NoExists DeleteThis @Earth.net> wrote in message
> news:w7Skj.22480$8A4.12408@trnddc02...
> >
> > Consumer Reports is hyperbole now eh? Interesting. My first hand
> > experience is seeing 4 Fords spend plenty of time in the shop. Since
> > Toyota, I have not had one problem.
>
> CR is nothing less than hyperbole and distortion. God lord dude - what are
> you... 19 years?

How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with
different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings or when they
say that some Toyotas are unreliable?
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:51:50 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)" <x RemoveThis @y.Invalid> wrote:

>Per DeserTBoB:
>>I guess you also won't be voting for any Republicans again anytime
>>soon, either.
>
>You mean the former bearers of the mantel of fiscal
>responsibility?
>
>I tended towards voting Republican most of my life.
>
>Last election? Next election?
>
>Take a guess....

So I guess you want to vote for the Dims?

ROFLMAO

I have to agree that the 'Republicans' have stayed, but not as far as the
Dims...

--
Scott in Florida
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

Per Scott in Florida:
>I have to agree that the 'Republicans' have stayed, but not as far as the
>Dims...

Turning a 200 billion surplus into what?.... Half trillion
deficit? Probably more by all accounts. One can attack
the 200 billion surplus numbers.... but nobody can say it was
deficit. Likewise, with enough creative accounting, one
can probably minimize the current deficit.... but I don't think
that any responsible person would deny that it's size is
significant.

That's a pretty big stray for a party whose traditional values
are rooted in economics 101 - or used to be.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think the dems are going to be any
better.

Now that the party of supposed fiscal responsibility has
discovered that it can successfully pander to the credit card
mentality, it seems to me like there's really no hope at all -
and the dems are going to do the same thing.

Anybody else hear the attacks on Huckabee to the effect that he
raised taxes in his home state?

In the long run we're all going down either way unless the
national consciousness is somehow miraculously raised to include
the idea that you have to pay for what you buy and paying now is
a *lot* cheaper than paying later.... and if you don't want to
pay now you probably shouldn't buy now.

But I wouldn't hold my breath.


My only rationales are:
--------------------------------------------------------------
- Turning around and voting again for the guys that sold me out
in such a huge way would send the wrong message - not that
anybody gives a damn how one wacko in southeastern Pennsylvania
votes - but still...

- Seems to me like the only thing that's left after the
Republicans reneged on monetary/fiscal responsibility is a
bunch of mean-spirited people who pander to the religious
right and politicize science and technology to a degree
that previous politicians have only dreamed of.

- If I live long enough, I'm probably going to be ruined by
inflation either way, so I might as well vote for the side
that shows a little heart for the have-nots.
--------------------------------------------------------------

OTOH, his party aside, I could go for McCaine. He fell off the
"straight talk express" briefly during the market thing in
Baghdad... but in general he seems to have the most personal
integrity of all of them.

Rudy seems too combative and egotistical to have his finger on
the trigger. I've also read accounts of him firing people
because they got too much good press - taking glory away from
him. And then there's judgment and the Bernie What's-His-Name
thing.... But the combativeness alone disqualifies him in my
book.

Huckabee sounds like the mensch of the group, but not believing
in evolution has such wide-ranging intellectual implications -
aggravated by the current administrations's politicization of
science. Besides, a number of truly horrible rulers have been
notably charming.... so the mensch bit probably counts for zip.

Romney's such a chameleon that I don't have any feeling for who
he is.

Going back to the dems, I've heard Warren Buffet - who I would
say probably has more IQ points than me, my immediate family, and
all my ancestors put together... and is definitely nobody's fool
- say that both Clinton or Obama are fully capable of doing a
good job.

My biggest worry is having a democratic president and a
democratic congress at the same time. Maybe I'll vote
Republican next congressional go-around.

Seems like the same party in power in both places is just bad
ju-ju. Republican/Republican... Democratic/Democratic.... same
thing. Too many hands in the cookie jar and not enough
adversarial relationships to make them at least feel nervous.
--
PeteCresswell
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:14:19 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)" <x DeleteThis @y.Invalid> wrote:

>Per Scott in Florida:
>>I have to agree that the 'Republicans' have stayed, but not as far as the
>>Dims...
>
>Turning a 200 billion surplus into what?.... Half trillion
>deficit? Probably more by all accounts. One can attack
>the 200 billion surplus numbers.... but nobody can say it was
>deficit. Likewise, with enough creative accounting, one
>can probably minimize the current deficit.... but I don't think
>that any responsible person would deny that it's size is
>significant.
>
>That's a pretty big stray for a party whose traditional values
>are rooted in economics 101 - or used to be.
>
>Don't get me wrong: I don't think the dems are going to be any
>better.
>
>Now that the party of supposed fiscal responsibility has
>discovered that it can successfully pander to the credit card
>mentality, it seems to me like there's really no hope at all -
>and the dems are going to do the same thing.
>
>Anybody else hear the attacks on Huckabee to the effect that he
>raised taxes in his home state?
>
>In the long run we're all going down either way unless the
>national consciousness is somehow miraculously raised to include
>the idea that you have to pay for what you buy and paying now is
>a *lot* cheaper than paying later.... and if you don't want to
>pay now you probably shouldn't buy now.
>
>But I wouldn't hold my breath.
>
>
>My only rationales are:
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>- Turning around and voting again for the guys that sold me out
> in such a huge way would send the wrong message - not that
> anybody gives a damn how one wacko in southeastern Pennsylvania
> votes - but still...
>
>- Seems to me like the only thing that's left after the
> Republicans reneged on monetary/fiscal responsibility is a
> bunch of mean-spirited people who pander to the religious
> right and politicize science and technology to a degree
> that previous politicians have only dreamed of.
>
>- If I live long enough, I'm probably going to be ruined by
> inflation either way, so I might as well vote for the side
> that shows a little heart for the have-nots.
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>OTOH, his party aside, I could go for McCaine. He fell off the
>"straight talk express" briefly during the market thing in
>Baghdad... but in general he seems to have the most personal
>integrity of all of them.
>
>Rudy seems too combative and egotistical to have his finger on
>the trigger. I've also read accounts of him firing people
>because they got too much good press - taking glory away from
>him. And then there's judgment and the Bernie What's-His-Name
>thing.... But the combativeness alone disqualifies him in my
>book.
>
>Huckabee sounds like the mensch of the group, but not believing
>in evolution has such wide-ranging intellectual implications -
>aggravated by the current administrations's politicization of
>science. Besides, a number of truly horrible rulers have been
>notably charming.... so the mensch bit probably counts for zip.
>
>Romney's such a chameleon that I don't have any feeling for who
>he is.
>
>Going back to the dems, I've heard Warren Buffet - who I would
>say probably has more IQ points than me, my immediate family, and
>all my ancestors put together... and is definitely nobody's fool
>- say that both Clinton or Obama are fully capable of doing a
>good job.
>
>My biggest worry is having a democratic president and a
>democratic congress at the same time. Maybe I'll vote
>Republican next congressional go-around.
>
>Seems like the same party in power in both places is just bad
>ju-ju. Republican/Republican... Democratic/Democratic.... same
>thing. Too many hands in the cookie jar and not enough
>adversarial relationships to make them at least feel nervous.

Well said.

I really don't have an argument on anything you said.

Unfortunately, the future of the country really rides on the Supreme Court.

Electing a Dem would be a total disaster (the ninth Circuit Court is a prime
example of what we would get nationally).

I'd like to see the Supreme Court interpret laws based on the Constitution.

--
Scott in Florida
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly DeleteThis @my-deja.com> wrote in message
> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with
> different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings

When the same car with different nameplates get far different ratings.
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

"Bob M" <ram1220.DeleteThis@vzavenue.net> wrote in message
>
>
> Do you mean Kia? The Rio is made by Kia. Kia quality is in the hole. But
> everything I've heard about Hyundai is that they have turned themselves
> around including their quality.
>
> Bob

Kia has been taken over by Hyundai. I read it was at the request of the
Korean government to help turn them around.

I used to laugh at Hyundai and thought anyone buying them made a poor
choice. I bought an 07 Sonata. With 30,000 miles, it is still perfect and
has never been back to the dealer. Only service is oil changes and wiper
blades. I like the performance, the handling and yes, even the style. It
has every feature and more of the Lucerne I was considering.
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp DeleteThis @snet.net> wrote in message
news:cIclj.83$xq2.8@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly DeleteThis @my-deja.com> wrote in message
>> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with
>> different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings
>
> When the same car with different nameplates get far different ratings.
>
...like the Vibe compared to the Matrix in a recent issue? s
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

"Edwin Pawlowski" <esp.TakeThisOut@snet.net> wrote in message
news:cIclj.83$xq2.8@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly.TakeThisOut@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with
>> different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings
>
> When the same car with different nameplates get far different ratings.

In recent year I believe CR has been blending the data collected for
different nameplates that are substantially the same vehicle underneath the
sheet metal. In the 80's it was almost comical how different Buicks,
Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs would rate. Lately, all the GM cars of the same
platform tend to get the same reliability ratings from Consumer Reports, yet
they still get different ratings in the JD Powers Surveys. This leads me to
believe that CR is blending results to avoid an appearance of inconsistency.
I enjoy CR's road tests, even though I often disagree with their opinions. I
think their actual hard data collection is the best you can get. But I think
the CR reliability survey is a joke. The data collection scheme is flawed,
the participant database is not even close to random, and the actual
questionnaire does not collect enough information to draw the sort of
conclusions implied by the information presented in the magazine. JD Power
does not claim to provide the sort of detailed information that CR CLAIMS to
provide, but what they do provide is much more reliable. It still suffers
from the flaw that the data collection scheme depends on the Customer to
decide what is a problem, but if you are judging Customer perception (which
is what JDP is trying to measure) it is OK to do so. When you are trying to
claim the data presented is hard data (as CR does) it is NOT OK to depend on
Customer perceptions (yet this is exactly what CR does).

Ed
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

"Mr4701" <NoExists.TakeThisOut@Earth.net> wrote in message
news:%aSkj.3094$Wr4.2932@trnddc04...

> My point is when people look for used cars.. they look for ones that are
> reliable and last.

Actually SOME people look for the ones they BELIEVE are reliable and last at
an attractive cost. Other look for ones that they thing meet their needs for
other reasons. For instance, my SO's Son bought a used BMW 740il, Everyone,
including me, warned that they were unreliable and wouldn't last. He bought
it anyhow. And all our warnings turned out to be spot on. He is driving a
Honda now. Perception is the operative word. You buy what you perceive will
meet your needs at an attractive cost. Most people don't actually know that
the car they are buying will be reliable and last a long time. Unless you
know the history of the vehicle - the way it was treated and maintained -
you are taking a gamble, even if you buy a used Toyota (or maybe especially
if you buy a used Toyota). I have two Sisters, They both drive there cars
into the ground. One has a Honda Civic, the other a Ford Escape. I can
gaurantee that if you bought the Ford Escape, you would get a far better
vehicle. My Sister than owns the Escape follows the maintenance schedule to
the letter. Any problem is addressed at once. My other Sister only changes
the oil when I her harass her about it. Both cars have been incredibly
reliable. The Escape has needed a coolant level sensor (warranty), a crusie
control cable ($10), and a brake booster. The Civic has needed plug wires
and two mufflers (but the clutch will go soon). The Civic uses at least a
quart of oil between changes. The Escape uses none. The interior of the
Honda is dull and the plastic parts are falling apart. The Honda exterior
paint is faded and falling off the bumpers. The Escape looks like new inside
and out. I much rather have a well amintained used Ford than a poorly
maintained Toyota. However once the car is on a dealers lot, you probably
won't be able to tell which is the better vehicle from looks alone.

Ed
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better 

"sdlomi2" <daniels_sam.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:UqBlj.56754$Mu4.55692@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <esp.TakeThisOut@snet.net> wrote in message
> news:cIclj.83$xq2.8@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>> "larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly.TakeThisOut@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>> How can CR be just hype and distortion when nearly identical cars with
>>> different nameplates get very similar reliability ratings
>>
>> When the same car with different nameplates get far different ratings.
>>
> ...like the Vibe compared to the Matrix in a recent issue? s
>
Or the front wheel drive Chevy Novas compared to the same year Toyota
Corollas?

Whitelightning
 >> Stay informed about: Consumer Reports: Asian Cars Better