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Since: May 03, 2007 Posts: 721
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:01 am
Post subject: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz Archived from groups: alt>autos>gm (more info?)
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Change or die for the Big 3
http://tinyurl.com/5v9loa
We've heard it a million times.
"Our restructuring plan is working."
And it always is, until some unforeseen market force blows up beyond
"anyone's expectations."
Gas prices. Steel prices. Hybrid demand. Congress.
Pick a poison. But if you have to restructure your restructuring plans
more often then your quarterly reports, you're problems are bigger than
having too many trucks.
That was made clear again Tuesday when May's monthly sales figures were
released and for the first time ever, the Detroit Three were overtaken
by Asian automakers in terms of overall U.S. market share.
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC now lay claim to
45.4 percent of the U.S. market. Asian automakers, led by Toyota Motor
Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co., now control 47.8 percent,
according to Autodata Corp., which compiles monthly sales figures.
Even more striking and unfamiliar was the elevation of the Honda Civic
as the No. 1 selling vehicle in the U.S. Ford's F-series pickups had
been king for more than 30 years.
Plenty of people knew
So what happened and how could the executives at the Renaissance Center,
Glass House or Auburn Hills auto complex not know?
Your neighbor Joe knew. You knew.
Truth is, plenty of people in the know, knew, too. They've just been
ignored, pushed aside or told to play along because that's part of the
Detroit auto culture -- and part of the problem.
Money was good and consumers were demanding and buying big pickups. And,
make no mistake, nobody has ever been forced to buy an SUV or truck.
Consumer demand drove the U.S. auto market and the automakers rightly
responded.
They didn't plan well and allocated too many resources into one segment
at the risk of another, but that Explorer, Escalade or Ram that you're
driving today didn't arrive thanks to Jedi mind tricks played by Obi-Wan
Mulally.
Changing business plans
How, or if, Detroit's automakers make a real shift in how they do
business will determine whether they'll survive. They have to further
thin their work forces, diversify their product lineup and bring
tomorrow's vehicles to market today -- if not yesterday.
That won't happen overnight in this industry, nor would it in any of
similar size and it requires realistic expectations from investors,
consumers and policy makers. Perhaps the recent spate of changes will
drive Detroit properly into the future.
No longer can we trust that revamped business plans are on track.
We'll believe that when the next thing we hear isn't something we've
already heard before.
--
Civis Romanus Sum >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Jan 31, 2005 Posts: 136
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Sometimes you dont hear the shot that kills you. And Detroit probably didnt
hear the fuel crisis booming away quickly enough.
I dont expect them to die, actually, but they will have to react wisely to
avoid
being pummeled to a pulp.
"Business as usual" has taken a head shot. >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 70
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jun 5, 12:01 pm, Jim Higgins <gordian....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Change or die for the Big 3http://tinyurl.com/5v9loa
>
> We've heard it a million times.
>
> "Our restructuring plan is working."
>
> And it always is, until some unforeseen market force blows up beyond
> "anyone's expectations."
>
> Gas prices. Steel prices. Hybrid demand. Congress.
>
> Pick a poison. But if you have to restructure your restructuring plans
> more often then your quarterly reports, you're problems are bigger than
> having too many trucks.
>
> That was made clear again Tuesday when May's monthly sales figures were
> released and for the first time ever, the Detroit Three were overtaken
> by Asian automakers in terms of overall U.S. market share.
>
> General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC now lay claim to
> 45.4 percent of the U.S. market. Asian automakers, led by Toyota Motor
> Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co., now control 47.8 percent,
> according to Autodata Corp., which compiles monthly sales figures.
>
> Even more striking and unfamiliar was the elevation of the Honda Civic
> as the No. 1 selling vehicle in the U.S. Ford's F-series pickups had
> been king for more than 30 years.
> Plenty of people knew
>
> So what happened and how could the executives at the Renaissance Center,
> Glass House or Auburn Hills auto complex not know?
>
> Your neighbor Joe knew. You knew.
>
> Truth is, plenty of people in the know, knew, too. They've just been
> ignored, pushed aside or told to play along because that's part of the
> Detroit auto culture -- and part of the problem.
>
> Money was good and consumers were demanding and buying big pickups. And,
> make no mistake, nobody has ever been forced to buy an SUV or truck.
> Consumer demand drove the U.S. auto market and the automakers rightly
> responded.
>
> They didn't plan well and allocated too many resources into one segment
> at the risk of another, but that Explorer, Escalade or Ram that you're
> driving today didn't arrive thanks to Jedi mind tricks played by Obi-Wan
> Mulally.
> Changing business plans
>
> How, or if, Detroit's automakers make a real shift in how they do
> business will determine whether they'll survive. They have to further
> thin their work forces, diversify their product lineup and bring
> tomorrow's vehicles to market today -- if not yesterday.
>
> That won't happen overnight in this industry, nor would it in any of
> similar size and it requires realistic expectations from investors,
> consumers and policy makers. Perhaps the recent spate of changes will
> drive Detroit properly into the future.
>
> No longer can we trust that revamped business plans are on track.
>
> We'll believe that when the next thing we hear isn't something we've
> already heard before.
>
> --
> Civis Romanus Sum
In the socialistic GM -- oops I mean USSR - there were examples that
one factory was given an order to produce 10.000.000 left brown shoe
of size 44.
Because of mixup in the orders the macthing right shoe was given to
another factory but they were told to make 10.000.000 right black shoe
of size 38.
It looks like GM is facing similar mixups in their production. >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Oct 26, 2005 Posts: 669
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Jim Higgins" <gordian238.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aPOdnbqSRtEHSNrVnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology...
> Change or die for the Big 3
This guy has finally tried my patience. Simply have no more time for his
spam. Time for you to meet the toilet Jimmy...
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE.TakeThisOut@alltel.net >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Jun 29, 2004 Posts: 48
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:48:37 -0400, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE RemoveThis @alltel.net>
wrote:
>
>"Jim Higgins" <gordian238 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:aPOdnbqSRtEHSNrVnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology...
>
>> Change or die for the Big 3
>
>This guy has finally tried my patience. Simply have no more time for his
>spam. Time for you to meet the toilet Jimmy...
I think he's the former automotive writer for the Detroit News.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Speak softly and carry a loaded .45
Lifetime member; Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: May 03, 2007 Posts: 721
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Jim Higgins" <gordian238.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:aPOdnbqSRtEHSNrVnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology...
>
>> Change or die for the Big 3
>
> This guy has finally tried my patience. Simply have no more time for his
> spam. Time for you to meet the toilet Jimmy...
>
Denying that company destructive problems are really there will only
lead their demise. Oh, I forgot that GM is already doing that, working
hard to decrease their market share with their excellent planning and
vision. Rick & the Board hard at work.
--
Civis Romanus Sum >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: May 03, 2007 Posts: 721
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Starr wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:48:37 -0400, "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE RemoveThis @alltel.net>
> wrote:
>
>> "Jim Higgins" <gordian238 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:aPOdnbqSRtEHSNrVnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology...
>>
>>> Change or die for the Big 3
>> This guy has finally tried my patience. Simply have no more time for his
>> spam. Time for you to meet the toilet Jimmy...
>
> I think he's the former automotive writer for the Detroit News.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> Speak softly and carry a loaded .45
> Lifetime member; Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
> Web Site: www.destarr.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That would be Mike Hunt.
--
Civis Romanus Sum >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 264
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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DUH! So did Toyota, Nissan and even Honda with the car based "truck" the
Ridgeline. The growth of ALL of the Japanese brands for the past ten
years was in what the American buyer wanted and that was ever larger more
powerful compact and midsize cars, luxury cars, SUVs, Vans and trucks, not
midget and small cars. Up until recently none of the Japanese brands best
sellers were their midget and small cars it was their midsize cars
"Jim Higgins" <gordian238 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aPOdnbqSRtEHSNrVnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology...
> Change or die for the Big 3
> http://tinyurl.com/5v9loa
>
> We've heard it a million times.
>
> "Our restructuring plan is working."
>
> And it always is, until some unforeseen market force blows up beyond
> "anyone's expectations."
>
> Gas prices. Steel prices. Hybrid demand. Congress.
>
> Pick a poison. But if you have to restructure your restructuring plans
> more often then your quarterly reports, you're problems are bigger than
> having too many trucks.
>
> That was made clear again Tuesday when May's monthly sales figures were
> released and for the first time ever, the Detroit Three were overtaken by
> Asian automakers in terms of overall U.S. market share.
>
> General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC now lay claim to
> 45.4 percent of the U.S. market. Asian automakers, led by Toyota Motor
> Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co., now control 47.8 percent,
> according to Autodata Corp., which compiles monthly sales figures.
>
> Even more striking and unfamiliar was the elevation of the Honda Civic as
> the No. 1 selling vehicle in the U.S. Ford's F-series pickups had been
> king for more than 30 years.
> Plenty of people knew
>
> So what happened and how could the executives at the Renaissance Center,
> Glass House or Auburn Hills auto complex not know?
>
> Your neighbor Joe knew. You knew.
>
> Truth is, plenty of people in the know, knew, too. They've just been
> ignored, pushed aside or told to play along because that's part of the
> Detroit auto culture -- and part of the problem.
>
> Money was good and consumers were demanding and buying big pickups. And,
> make no mistake, nobody has ever been forced to buy an SUV or truck.
> Consumer demand drove the U.S. auto market and the automakers rightly
> responded.
>
> They didn't plan well and allocated too many resources into one segment at
> the risk of another, but that Explorer, Escalade or Ram that you're
> driving today didn't arrive thanks to Jedi mind tricks played by Obi-Wan
> Mulally.
> Changing business plans
>
> How, or if, Detroit's automakers make a real shift in how they do business
> will determine whether they'll survive. They have to further thin their
> work forces, diversify their product lineup and bring tomorrow's vehicles
> to market today -- if not yesterday.
>
> That won't happen overnight in this industry, nor would it in any of
> similar size and it requires realistic expectations from investors,
> consumers and policy makers. Perhaps the recent spate of changes will
> drive Detroit properly into the future.
>
> No longer can we trust that revamped business plans are on track.
>
> We'll believe that when the next thing we hear isn't something we've
> already heard before.
>
> --
> Civis Romanus Sum >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Apr 19, 2007 Posts: 70
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Jun 7, 12:33 am, Josh S <J... RemoveThis @clean.spam> wrote:
> In article <qmmg44hpg0psd2amgj689ktetn0drdc... RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
> David Starr <davest... RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> > Speak softly and carry a loaded .45
> > Lifetime member; Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
> > Web Site:www.destarr.com
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> No wonder GM has labor troubles.
Rick wants to leave butt has a trouble leaving his brothers behind >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Oct 26, 2005 Posts: 669
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Josh S" <Josh RemoveThis @clean.spam> wrote in message
news:Josh-16DBEA.17485706062008@news.telus.net...
>
> GM top management are either con artists or simply stupid.
> My broker and I vote for just DAM STUPID, based on their behind tech
> cars over the last 10 years.
I don't disagree that GM top management needs to get a clue, but in what way
do you believe GM has produced cars that are behind technologically?
> Looking at the GM vs Toyota, Nissan and Honda small to mid sized car
> offerings, it's hands down for Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
With respect to GM's earned credibility (or lack thereof) owing to such
things as the intake issues with the 60 degree engines, I agree. With
respect to such things as junk window motors, alternators and a couple of
other things, I agree. But then every manufacturer is going to suffer their
own particular ills. In the overall, I don't see where any of those
manufacturers have anything on GM except for public perception. That
perception is one the public wants to see - not one that is necessarily
real.
>
> I used to be a GM fan pre 80s, then a Chrysler fan.
> Chrysler has nothing for me and I certainly wouldn't look at a vehicle
> from such an ugly to employees company as GM.
> So now it's Ford, Toyota, Nissan and Honda on my short list list of
> companies that have product I'm interested in and a kind to workers
> approach to business.
Kind to workers?
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE RemoveThis @alltel.net >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Jun 06, 2007 Posts: 33
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:33 am
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <qmmg44hpg0psd2amgj689ktetn0drdck39.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
David Starr <davestarr.RemoveThis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
> Speak softly and carry a loaded .45
> Lifetime member; Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
> Web Site: www.destarr.com
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
No wonder GM has labor troubles. >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Jan 31, 2005 Posts: 136
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:40 am
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE DeleteThis @alltel.net> wrote in message
> In the overall, I don't see where any of those
> manufacturers have anything on GM except for public perception. That
> perception is one the public wants to see - not one that is necessarily
> real.
In all fairness, I have owned other several brands of cars:
I am on my first Toyota...now a year old.
VW Passats....two of them
SAAB......one
Dodge van....one
All of them have been relatively trouble free over their lifetimes.
I have not owned a GM car since the 70'-80's that has not been
troublesome once the new wears off. Every one of them... >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Oct 26, 2005 Posts: 669
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:12 am
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"HLS" <nospam DeleteThis @nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:Gnv2k.4265$N87.3392@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE DeleteThis @alltel.net> wrote in message
>> In the overall, I don't see where any of those manufacturers have
>> anything on GM except for public perception. That perception is one the
>> public wants to see - not one that is necessarily real.
>
> In all fairness, I have owned other several brands of cars: I am on my
> first Toyota...now a year old.
> VW Passats....two of them
> SAAB......one
> Dodge van....one
>
> All of them have been relatively trouble free over their lifetimes.
> I have not owned a GM car since the 70'-80's that has not been troublesome
> once the new wears off. Every one of them...
I would not categorize my experiences as troublesome. I've had the common
experiences which I believe should have long ago been resolved, and I do not
forgive GM for continually foisting some of these things on the consuming
public, but I have not experienced continual, across the board problems. I
have actually found them to be quite reliable, notwithstanding those
aforementioned issues. I've always gotten over 200,000 miles out of them
unless they were wrecked first. Never had tranny problems, bodies held up
well (even in the salt belt), once you got past the '80's, fuel economy was
much better than most people gave GM credit for, and they were solid and
comfortable.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE DeleteThis @alltel.net >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Jan 31, 2005 Posts: 136
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:27 am
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE.RemoveThis@alltel.net> wrote in message news:16431
> I would not categorize my experiences as troublesome. I've had the common
> experiences which I believe should have long ago been resolved, and I do
> not forgive GM for continually foisting some of these things on the
> consuming public, but I have not experienced continual, across the board
> problems. I have actually found them to be quite reliable,
> notwithstanding those aforementioned issues. I've always gotten over
> 200,000 miles out of them unless they were wrecked first. Never had
> tranny problems, bodies held up well (even in the salt belt), once you got
> past the '80's, fuel economy was much better than most people gave GM
> credit for, and they were solid and comfortable.
The "built in" problems that you and I both recognize are some of the more
expensive and annoying issues.
I had transmission problems in three GM products, one Olds, one Pontiac, and
one
Buick...Probably the same tranny, more or less.
The bodies are better than they were in the 70's (which had the built in
galvanic
corrosion cell around the rear windows...They should have been horsewhipped
for
continuing with that for so many years.
Air conditioner problems - yep, had that too...
That Buick ate 2-4 alternators per year. Too much heat for a design like
that.
I used to say I would rather push a GM than drive a Ford, but I ended up
having to
do exactly that too many times. >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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Since: Jun 06, 2007 Posts: 33
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:27 am
Post subject: Re: Change or die for the Big 3 Add to elertz [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <126ae$484a03eb$471fbb65$32464@ALLTEL.NET>,
"Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE.RemoveThis@alltel.net> wrote:
> In the overall, I don't see where any of those
> manufacturers have anything on GM except for public perception. That
> perception is one the public wants to see - not one that is necessarily
> real.
Over the last 15 years I've had two week rentals on several GM cars.
Only one would I have been happy to own.
-A Malibu about 10 years ago has a low quality interior, even the glove
box door wouldn't open properly. The drivers space was too narrow for
me, too large a middle console.
-A small Pontiac was acceptable, but the traction control switch was
too easy to turn on.
The V6 4spd auto drive train of both the above was OK.
-A Pontiac Alero (I believe) in 2001 had far to powerful a V6 engine and
gave poor mileage. The drivers space was tight.
-A 2005 Impalla had too much space between 3rd and 4th in the Auto.
Obviously set up to get maximum highway mileage, which was very good,
but it was very reluctant to down shift making it a real pain to drive.
I've noticed this down shift resistance is common in GM V6 4sp drive
trains. What is needed is a 5 or 6 spd trans.
The cornering of the Impalla was not very good.
This Impalla would have been a good car in 1985, but not in 2005.
BTW my 1995 Chrysler drives much nicer. I would not have done a straight
trade for the much older tech 2005 Impalla. >> Stay informed about: Change or die for the Big 3 |
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