Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch

In article ,
DeserTBoB wrote:

> >I know many people that have bought Camrys for the past 20 plus years.
> >They are hard to beat for reliability. <snip>
>
> For around 90-100K miles, yes...then, you simply throw them away.

Ah, no. You replace the timing belt and water pump (and an
occasional evap canister) and run 'em another 100K.
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

Bill Putney wrote:
> DeserTBoB wrote:
> > On 24 Oct 2006 14:59:32 -0700, "kmatheson@sisna.com"
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>The Japanese manufacturers now build a lot of cars for the U.S. market
> >>on U.S. soil. They don't have to contend with the labor problems that
> >>the big three do. <snip>
> >
> >
> > ...meaning they predatorily take advantage of weak, unenforce labor
> > laws in the US to their own advantage...and the disadvantage of US
> > workers. How nice.
>
> My b.s. detector just went off.
>
> No, TrollBobSquarepants - it means that they don't do suicidal things
> like GM did years ago like sign agreements with unions that say that if
> a supplier or someone within GM comes up with an idea on a subassembly
> that will save GM money by eliminating a warm body on GM's existing
> production line, the idea could *not* be implemented, whereas a
> competitor could realize those cost savings on their line if similar
> types of efficiency improvements were identified. Search my past posts
> on GM's PICOS program which I had first-hand experience with.
>
> Bill Putney
> (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
> address with the letter 'x')


(laughter..) trollboobshitpants, that's too funny !! BWAHAHAHAHAHA !!

Bill- heads up- BOOB was a union worker who got AXED by Bell Telephone,
he was a "phone guy" who's job was OUTSOURCED- so he dreamed up some
lame-assed excuse to go on DISABILITY, and is collecting SSI checks- he
can't afford to fuel an American car, and he still drives a 1978 HONDA
shitbox some relative gave to him.

all of a sudden, it's all the big 3's fault, that he can't afford gas,
and is a financial failure in life...

I'd tell him, drive a Honda, get hurt, lose your prestige, don't come
crying to me !

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

DeserTBoB wrote:
> On 24 Oct 2006 14:59:32 -0700, "kmatheson@sisna.com"
> wrote:
>
>
>>The Japanese manufacturers now build a lot of cars for the U.S. market
>>on U.S. soil. They don't have to contend with the labor problems that
>>the big three do. <snip>
>
>
> ...meaning they predatorily take advantage of weak, unenforce labor
> laws in the US to their own advantage...and the disadvantage of US
> workers. How nice.

My b.s. detector just went off.

No, TrollBobSquarepants - it means that they don't do suicidal things
like GM did years ago like sign agreements with unions that say that if
a supplier or someone within GM comes up with an idea on a subassembly
that will save GM money by eliminating a warm body on GM's existing
production line, the idea could *not* be implemented, whereas a
competitor could realize those cost savings on their line if similar
types of efficiency improvements were identified. Search my past posts
on GM's PICOS program which I had first-hand experience with.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

In article ,
"kmatheson@sisna.com" wrote:

> The Japanese manufacturers now build a lot of
most
>cars for the U.S. market
> on U.S. soil.
Not just the USA, within NAFDA- the USA, Canada and Mexico.

>They don't have to contend with the labor problems that
> the big three do. It's going to be hard for the "big 3" to beat them. I
> read in Time magazine that it cost G.M. over 1 billion to shut down
> Oldsmobile, because of the agreement that they had with U.A.W regarding
> plant closures.
True.
Only idiot management signs a contract paying almost full wages for many
years after a lay off. Surely they must have realized this was only a
short term gain and it would catch up with them or did they really think
they would grow production volumes enough to use all the workers?
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:53:07 GMT, who wrote:

>Only idiot management signs a contract paying almost full wages for many
>years after a lay off. Surely they must have realized this was only a
>short term gain and it would catch up with them or did they really think
>they would grow production volumes enough to use all the workers? <snip>

The UAW agreements were based on an ever-growing industry and world
domination of same, both of which are turning out be false.
Mismanagement at the Big 3, notably at GM and Ford, and non-existant
trade barriers to predatory foreign invaders is finishing them off.
You can blame NAFTA for part of GM's woes, too...they've been
assembling Chevies in Mexico for many years, and the poor quality
assembly and high failure rate on Mexican built product has been one
of GM's big headaches since doing so. Poor "maquiladora" quality
assembly also bit Borg-Warner in the ass, as well, and drove them out
of the automotive guage business in the '80s and '90s.

Had the Big 3 responded properly to the Japanese threat in the '70s,
there would be no discussion about the UAW agreements now. They made
their own bed in the muck, and now they're wallowing in it. However,
since top management always has the bully pulpit, they blame all their
miscues on labor...it's easy to do, and since they control the media
through huge advertising campaigns, the other side of the story is
rarely heard. That's also a reason why the Japanese, especially
Toyota, have been able to "program" clueless US buyers...massive,
hyped media campaigns. Now, with multi billion dollar losses a
reality, Ford and GM can't even keep up with the Japanese's ad
campaigns. Ford's has been a complete disaster, focusing on unwanted
SUVs, especially from the L-M division. Only recently have they begun
selling their Focus line, as unprofitable as it is, in TV ads, and the
ads aren't what you'd call "convincing." Ditto the roll-out campaigns
for the now-floundering 500 and Fusion. Meanwhile, every cable
channel flogs Toyota this and that seemingly every 10 minutes! There
are even more Subaru and Mazda ads on TV than Big 3 ads!

Don't blame the worker...he's just getting what he can get to survive,
and GM and Ford's management were delusional enough to go along. The
guys at the top are the ones responsible, just like Bush Bird is
responsible for the Iraq disaster and the new "phony" economy.
Unemployment figures too high? Just delete those guys who haven't
been working for 90 days...that'll fix it! New jobs? Oh yeah, lots
of new jobs...at minimum wage and no benefits! People who believe
Bush would tend to believe Toyota's ad campaigns..."sheeple."

And just remember this: If it weren't for the UAW and Doug Fraser
sitting on Chrysler's board, there wouldn't be a Chrysler ANYTHING
today. The bankers, Wall Streeters and Republipedoes in Washington
all wanted Chrysler to go into bankruptcy and liquidatation...or don't
you remember that part?
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

On 25 Oct 2006 12:54:53 -0700, "kmatheson@sisna.com"
wrote:

>I agree. The Camry and Accord owners that I referred to in an eariler
>post, got fed up with the quality problems of the American cars back in
>the late 1970's and early 1980's, so they switched to Japanese and have
>never given American vehicles another chance.<snip>

Exactly. It's a maxim of marketing that a pissed off customer
requires about nine times more expenditure in advertising and "give
backs" to win back after being treated shabbily or being sold junk
than a "new" customer. AT&T learned that the hard way, and it was
their downfall.

> I still see a lot of
>Chrysler minivans on the road from the begining models through the
>mid-1990's. <snip>

Seen yesterday while shopping: An original T115 Caravan, still
plodding along. Clear coat was almost all gone, but it was still
soldiering on and seemed to be running just fine. I see those a lot,
see K-cars much less often, and rarely see an F-body...but I see them
now and then, too.

>I bought a Dodge Stratus over a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry because
>the price was better. <snip>

Another mistaken paradigm of American buyers is that Japanese makes
cost less. They certainly do not, especially Hondas now. The
Japanese know how this customer-supplier relationship works and know
very well how customers are "programmed" (they should...we taught them
how to do it) and are riding the high price wave as long as they can.
Once Ford or GM starts to fight back in earnest, they'll engage in a
price war similar to what GM and Ford got into in the early 1950s. It
was that price war that almost killed off Chrysler then, almost killed
off Packard, drove Nash and Hudson into a protective AMC, and woke
Chrysler management up to the need for Virgil Exner's styling excesses
and their superior V8s, and it kept them afloat long enough until they
could really start to fight back in the '60s. With Toyota and Honda
being cash-rich, I don't think the current Ford or GM has the cash on
hand to win such a war of attrition without getting into serious debt,
with the attendant "junk bond" status of their short term debt rating.
GM's already there now, with Ford right behind them.

Another fly in the ointment in this type of war is the Koreans, who
are underselling everybody with dubious, but cheap, vehicles. If the
Chinese get into the act with the Chery sub-subcompact (and word is
they will), it's all over for the low end of the market, and GM and
Ford will be squeezed in the middle with no market.

Instead of concentrating on fighting this economic war front with the
Asians, our dear dyslexic moron president and his administration
preferred instead to go into Iraq to show Daddy that Junior can do
whatever he wants!

Back to the Stratus, I have a neighbor with one. His previous car was
a Honda Accord, and he couldn't justify the price of a new one over
the Stratus. So far, 125K miles, a TCM flashing, and that's been all
that he's had to do outside of normal maintenance. His Accord had, as
he put it, "body integrity problems."
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

DeserTBoB wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:53:07 GMT, who wrote:
>
> Don't blame the worker...he's just getting what he can get to survive,
> and GM and Ford's management were delusional enough to go along.

It would be hard to determine whether unuin labor or stupid management
is the bigger problem in the American automotive industry. I worked for
a short time in a union shop about 15 years ago. They were the laziest
bunch of worthless idiots I've ever met. Incidentally, we were not auto
workers, we were aircraft mechanics represented by the Teamsters union,
believe it or not. What a joke. I don't trust union leadership as far
as I can throw them. The hardest work they ever did was in their effort
to make sure nobody ever did any real work, and they stood in the way of
anything that was good for the company or the aircraft. In one case,
management fired an incompetent mechanic three times and the Teamsters
had him reinstated, until management finally gave up. Guess what, the
company went out of business and we all lost our jobs. Yay union! Of
course, management at that company was not without blame. They used to
throw man-hours at a job thinking that they could get it done faster
with more mechanics. They would regularly assign 6 mechanics on one
shift to put panels in the baggage bin of a 737, even though only two
men could fit in there and get any work done. That's like asking 9
women to have a baby in one month. As far as I can tell, the worst
offender was the union, which actively encouraged everybody to do only 2
hours of work in an 8 hour shift.


> And just remember this: If it weren't for the UAW and Doug Fraser
> sitting on Chrysler's board, there wouldn't be a Chrysler ANYTHING
> today. The bankers, Wall Streeters and Republipedoes in Washington
> all wanted Chrysler to go into bankruptcy and liquidatation...or don't
> you remember that part?


Who says we needed to keep Chrysler around? Did you ever wonder what
happened to the real American dream? That's the one where if you don't
like the way things are you take the initiative to build a better
company and a better product yourself. Why is it that laborers would
prefer to make rules that say somebody else has to pay them a fortune,
rather than build their own car factory and do it the way they think it
should be done? We would be better off with 20 car manufacturers rather
than just the Big 3. Figure out why it is that that doesn't happen, and
I think you'll be closer to what the real problem is in this country.
You'll likely find that it has been made impossible to get started in
heavy industry because of collusion between existing companies and
various government agencies. We would be better served by addressing
this issue rather than concerning ourselves with the ridiculous labor
agreements, management decisions, and business precedents in existing
heavy industries.
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

> >I know many people that have bought Camrys for the past 20 plus years.
> >They are hard to beat for reliability. <snip>

In article ,
DeserTBoB wrote:
>
> For around 90-100K miles, yes...then, you simply throw them away.

You know no more than the stupid mgnt of the Big 3.
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

DeserTBoB wrote:

>> You ever wonder what
>> happened to the real American dream? That's the one where if you don't
>> like the way things are you take the initiative to build a better
>> company and a better product yourself. Why is it that laborers would
>> prefer to make rules that say somebody else has to pay them a fortune,
>> rather than build their own car factory and do it the way they think it
>> should be done? <snip>

> A truly stupid statement. Ever hear of "division of labor?"


Yeah I've heard of it. What about it? I think it's a great idea to run
one's own business. I'm starting one now myself, because I think it
would be stupid to wait for somebody else to get me where I want to go
in life. Referring to "division of labor" as if it were some treasured
way of life is stupid, in my opinion.

Here's an even more interesting take on the subject of stupidity and
division of labor. You go on and on about how stupid everybody else is,
which is an intriguing thing in itself. How did you get to be so much
smarter than the rest of us? Was it nutrition, or superior genetics, or
what? One way or another, you seem to think you're several times
smarter than everybody else in America. But you just might be
mistaken. What most hardheaded folks like you don't understand is that
those who disagree with you are not actually stupid, they just don't
agree. But back to the point at hand, regarding stupidity and the
division of labor. A division of labor promotes ignorance. People who
are so stupid that they don't know what a spark plug is are generally
very good at something else, which is generally what they do for a
living. In other words, they aren't really stupid. It is obvious to me
that a nation of renaissance men and women would be much more healthy,
wealthy and wise than a nation of drones who are all good at one thing
each. Naturally, I have done my share of single specialty jobs, but I
wouldn't want to stay with any of them for more than a few years.
Division of labor and specializing has given rise to our current
culture, wherein you are not supposed to question "experts". Hence, a
silly bureaucrat at the DFS can take your children away from you based
on their assessment of your parenting qualifications, many otherwise
intelligent people are at the mercy of the car mechanic and his $60/hr
shop rate, we're not supposed to question our expert "leaders" in the
White House (funny how they used to be called public servants), and
you're not supposed to be able to get a good job unless you cough up
thousands of dollars to give to the expert intellectuals at the
university for a diploma. Just do your job and don't ask any
questions. That's what the division of labor is all about. Or would
you rather people be better informed? Generally it doesn't tend to
happen both ways at the same time.

Now I suppose it's your turn to quote some drivel about Iaccoca from his
book, unless you have me in your killfile, in which case you'll have to
wait until somebody replies to me, and then you can tell me how stupid I
am.
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

Robbie and Laura Reynolds wrote:
> DeserTBoB wrote:
>
>
>>>You ever wonder what
>>>happened to the real American dream? That's the one where if you don't
>>>like the way things are you take the initiative to build a better
>>>company and a better product yourself. Why is it that laborers would
>>>prefer to make rules that say somebody else has to pay them a fortune,
>>>rather than build their own car factory and do it the way they think it
>>>should be done? <snip>
>
>
>>A truly stupid statement. Ever hear of "division of labor?"
>
>
>
> Yeah I've heard of it. What about it? I think it's a great idea to run
> one's own business. I'm starting one now myself, because I think it
> would be stupid to wait for somebody else to get me where I want to go
> in life. Referring to "division of labor" as if it were some treasured
> way of life is stupid, in my opinion.
>
> Here's an even more interesting take on the subject of stupidity and
> division of labor. You go on and on about how stupid everybody else is,
> which is an intriguing thing in itself. How did you get to be so much
> smarter than the rest of us? Was it nutrition, or superior genetics, or
> what? One way or another, you seem to think you're several times
> smarter than everybody else in America. But you just might be
> mistaken. What most hardheaded folks like you don't understand is that
> those who disagree with you are not actually stupid, they just don't
> agree. But back to the point at hand, regarding stupidity and the
> division of labor. A division of labor promotes ignorance. People who
> are so stupid that they don't know what a spark plug is are generally
> very good at something else, which is generally what they do for a
> living. In other words, they aren't really stupid. It is obvious to me
> that a nation of renaissance men and women would be much more healthy,
> wealthy and wise than a nation of drones who are all good at one thing
> each. Naturally, I have done my share of single specialty jobs, but I
> wouldn't want to stay with any of them for more than a few years.
> Division of labor and specializing has given rise to our current
> culture, wherein you are not supposed to question "experts". Hence, a
> silly bureaucrat at the DFS can take your children away from you based
> on their assessment of your parenting qualifications, many otherwise
> intelligent people are at the mercy of the car mechanic and his $60/hr
> shop rate, we're not supposed to question our expert "leaders" in the
> White House (funny how they used to be called public servants), and
> you're not supposed to be able to get a good job unless you cough up
> thousands of dollars to give to the expert intellectuals at the
> university for a diploma. Just do your job and don't ask any
> questions. That's what the division of labor is all about. Or would
> you rather people be better informed? Generally it doesn't tend to
> happen both ways at the same time.
>
> Now I suppose it's your turn to quote some drivel about Iaccoca from his
> book, unless you have me in your killfile, in which case you'll have to
> wait until somebody replies to me, and then you can tell me how stupid I
> am.


GO ROBBIE!!

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

Bill Putney wrote:
>
> Robbie and Laura Reynolds wrote:

> > Now I suppose it's your turn to quote some drivel about Iaccoca from his
> > book, unless you have me in your killfile, in which case you'll have to
> > wait until somebody replies to me, and then you can tell me how stupid I
> > am.
>
> GO ROBBIE!!
>
> Bill Putney


Aren't you in the kill-file, too?
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

In article ,
Robbie and Laura Reynolds wrote:

> DeserTBoB wrote:
>
> >> You ever wonder what
> >> happened to the real American dream? That's the one where if you don't
> >> like the way things are you take the initiative to build a better
> >> company and a better product yourself. Why is it that laborers would
> >> prefer to make rules that say somebody else has to pay them a fortune,
> >> rather than build their own car factory and do it the way they think it
> >> should be done? <snip>
>
> > A truly stupid statement. Ever hear of "division of labor?"
>
>
> Yeah I've heard of it. What about it? I think it's a great idea to run
> one's own business. I'm starting one now myself, because I think it
> would be stupid to wait for somebody else to get me where I want to go
> in life. Referring to "division of labor" as if it were some treasured
> way of life is stupid, in my opinion.
>
> Here's an even more interesting take on the subject of stupidity and
> division of labor. You go on and on about how stupid everybody else is,
> which is an intriguing thing in itself. How did you get to be so much
> smarter than the rest of us? Was it nutrition, or superior genetics, or
> what? One way or another, you seem to think you're several times
> smarter than everybody else in America. But you just might be
> mistaken. What most hardheaded folks like you don't understand is that
> those who disagree with you are not actually stupid, they just don't
> agree. But back to the point at hand, regarding stupidity and the
> division of labor. A division of labor promotes ignorance. People who
> are so stupid that they don't know what a spark plug is are generally
> very good at something else, which is generally what they do for a
> living. In other words, they aren't really stupid. It is obvious to me
> that a nation of renaissance men and women would be much more healthy,
> wealthy and wise than a nation of drones who are all good at one thing
> each. Naturally, I have done my share of single specialty jobs, but I
> wouldn't want to stay with any of them for more than a few years.
> Division of labor and specializing has given rise to our current
> culture, wherein you are not supposed to question "experts". Hence, a
> silly bureaucrat at the DFS can take your children away from you based
> on their assessment of your parenting qualifications, many otherwise
> intelligent people are at the mercy of the car mechanic and his $60/hr
> shop rate, we're not supposed to question our expert "leaders" in the
> White House (funny how they used to be called public servants), and
> you're not supposed to be able to get a good job unless you cough up
> thousands of dollars to give to the expert intellectuals at the
> university for a diploma. Just do your job and don't ask any
> questions. That's what the division of labor is all about. Or would
> you rather people be better informed? Generally it doesn't tend to
> happen both ways at the same time.
>
> Now I suppose it's your turn to quote some drivel about Iaccoca from his
> book, unless you have me in your killfile, in which case you'll have to
> wait until somebody replies to me, and then you can tell me how stupid I
> am.

Excellent post.

Best of luck on your new business venture.
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch 

In article ,
"jailhouserock" wrote:

> 3. Ford Motor Company (United States) - 6,418,416 vehicles
> Ford Motor Company United States Division Mainstream Global


> Aston Martin United Kingdom Subsidiary Luxury / Performance Global
> Jaguar United Kingdom Subsidiary Luxury Europe/North America
> Land Rover United Kingdom Subsidiary Luxury Truck Global
These three BIG losers are for sale.
Please someone relieve Ford of the bleeding here.

> Lincoln United States Division Luxury North America
> Mercury United States Division Near-Luxury North America
Soon to drop these two losers.

> Volvo Cars Sweden Subsidiary Near-Luxury
> Mazda
These two are rays of hope for Ford. Smart designers.
 >> Stay informed about: Big 3 blows it again, Japs eating their lunch