AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro..

Response from webpa <webpa DeleteThis @aol.com>:

> On Oct 8, 4:07 pm, "-Lost" <maventheextrawo... DeleteThis @techie.com> wrote:
>> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem?
>>
>> Or rather... what IS the problem?
>>
>> Here is the scenario. If the car is parked, turning on the AC
>> does nothing but blow what seems to be outside air, temperature
>> wise.
>>
>> If you leave the AC on and take off, it immediately turns cold.
>>
>> The heat does the exact same thing. You can turn it on while
>> idling or parked and it blows roughly coldish air (because it was
>> cooler at night when we tested the heat).
>>
>> As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly
>> warms up.
>>
>> What in the world is going on?
>
> It is normally helpful to specify the make, model, and year of the
> vehicle. However, your problem seems fairly common: You have a
> vacuum leak, probably in the engine's vacuum reservoir or its
> one-way valve, or in one or more of the vacuum motors that operate
> the doors (valves) in the heater/AC box, or in the plumbing
> leading to it. When you press the gas, engine vacuum drops
> dramatically, so whatever depends on the presence of vacuum...such
> as the position of the doors and valves in the heater/AC
> box...goes haywire.

Oops, sorry! I always forget something fundamental. It is a 1998
Ford Windstar.

Thanks for the prompt response!

Do you perhaps know how big of a job this is? And approximately how
much it should cost?

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

Response from "-Lost" <maventheextrawords RemoveThis @techie.com>:

> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem?
>
> Or rather... what IS the problem?
>
> Here is the scenario. If the car is parked, turning on the AC
> does nothing but blow what seems to be outside air, temperature
> wise.
>
> If you leave the AC on and take off, it immediately turns cold.
>
> The heat does the exact same thing. You can turn it on while
> idling or parked and it blows roughly coldish air (because it was
> cooler at night when we tested the heat).
>
> As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly
> warms up.
>
> What in the world is going on?

A quick update about what the dealer's mechanic has said:

This problem is related to the:

heater core (they are uncertain if this is the culprit)
blower motor (which they have already replaced without our consent)

They said they had to take apart the dash to get at the problem because
"it was not blowing correctly." When in fact it WAS blowing correctly
or at least forcefully, it was not however maintaining the temperatures
it was supposed to.

So my next question... are we being bamboozled?

The entire (quickie) version. The car was purchased used with a small
warranty plan. So we took it in to have the O2 sensors replaced which
were causing the check engine light to come on and poor fuel
consumption.

We asked them to "troubleshoot" the problem with the heater and AC and
after a day or two of calling about the problem they finally tell us
that the day before the car was taken apart and new parts put into it.
The manager claims this was "to help us save money" because the owner
of the vehicle said "I do not have the money for repairs right now, so
can you just give me a free estimate?" The owner was told that "it was
not going to cost you anything to see what was wrong with it." So
basically instead of calling us or the owner directly when the car WAS
apart, the manager instead opted to OK the repair on his own and
subsequently plans to refinance it into the existing loan.

There was NO service agreement made or signed so this seems highly
illegal to me. Any ideas on that?

I told the owner that it was standard practice that a "free estimate"
would cost you labor if the car was torn apart or if "the machine" was
used to troubleshoot the system. The owner however assures me that it
was explicitly asked and then stated that it would be NO cost
whatsoever so the owner assumed nothing was being taken apart.

So do the parts I mentioned sound like they should have been part of
the problem?

Does it sound like the owner is being done dirty?

Thanks for all of your help people!

P.S. "The owner" is my spouse, but I like to refer to them as "the
owner" because they decided to make this purchase without my help and
have been regretting not being more aware of their situation since the
purchase.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

O
>As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly warms up.
>
>What in the world is going on?
>
My first best guess is that belts are slipping and or loose. Low idle
speed is also suspect.

As for the second post with the seller's story. DOCUMENT
everything. Who said what, where, when (times, dates, places) and
what was done or allegedly done. Find a reputable shop to check what
was done or allegedly done and have them document it. Go back to
the seller and show them the facts of the situation and ask them if
they are willing to make it right. (Ask - don't yell or make threats)
DOCUMENT all conversations. Then you may be off to small claims
court.

I just went through simular bullshit with a friends car who bought
from another 'good' friend. That story was so full of holes, I
couldn't help be suspicious. The car was reinspected and found
wanting (Gov mandated safety inspection). 10 days ago we won a
judgment in court.

DOCUMENTATION is key and you have to go through all the hoops before
you go to court. Good luck and keep posting any results.

Pete
Licenced Automotive mechanic
Licenced Heavy Equipment mechanic
Community College instructor (ret)
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

Response from cselby DeleteThis @mts.net:

> O
>>As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly
>>warms up.
>>
>>What in the world is going on?
>>
> My first best guess is that belts are slipping and or loose. Low
> idle speed is also suspect.
>
> As for the second post with the seller's story. DOCUMENT
> everything. Who said what, where, when (times, dates, places) and
> what was done or allegedly done. Find a reputable shop to check
> what was done or allegedly done and have them document it. Go
> back to the seller and show them the facts of the situation and
> ask them if they are willing to make it right. (Ask - don't yell
> or make threats) DOCUMENT all conversations. Then you may be off
> to small claims court.
>
> I just went through simular bullshit with a friends car who bought
> from another 'good' friend. That story was so full of holes, I
> couldn't help be suspicious. The car was reinspected and found
> wanting (Gov mandated safety inspection). 10 days ago we won a
> judgment in court.
>
> DOCUMENTATION is key and you have to go through all the hoops
> before you go to court. Good luck and keep posting any results.

Definitely will do! Thanks!

One more quick question... considering we are current on payments for
the vehicle and whatnot, do you know if we have the legal right to
leave with our car if they try to prevent us from having it if we
refuse to pay for the stuff they have done to it?

Also... they never called back today and ignored (presumably) the 3
phone calls we placed to find out what was going on.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

On
>One more quick question... considering we are current on payments for
>the vehicle and whatnot, do you know if we have the legal right to
>leave with our car if they try to prevent us from having it if we
>refuse to pay for the stuff they have done to it?
>
>Also... they never called back today and ignored (presumably) the 3
>phone calls we placed to find out what was going on.
>

This is where a lawyer comes in. Most have a free 15 min consult to
see if you might have a case and your posible recourse.

Pete
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

Response from cselby.RemoveThis@mts.net:

>>One more quick question... considering we are current on payments
>>for the vehicle and whatnot, do you know if we have the legal
>>right to leave with our car if they try to prevent us from having
>>it if we refuse to pay for the stuff they have done to it?
>>
>>Also... they never called back today and ignored (presumably) the
>>3 phone calls we placed to find out what was going on.
>>
>
> This is where a lawyer comes in. Most have a free 15 min consult
> to see if you might have a case and your posible recourse.

Thanks, Pete. We did in fact contact a lawyer today and immediately
went to pick up our car.

Here is what was done, what our bill is, and what the mechanic had to
say:

1. "We blowed the heater core twice." Whatever the hell that was
supposed to mean. Are they telling me that they put 2 heater cores
in and they both failed immediately? Then he tells me most likely
the dash has to come apart to replace the heater core. Um...

2. "We replaced the air filter, it was dirty as hell." Cool. But
we did not authorize that.

3. "We refilled it with anti-freeze, cause it was a mite low." OK,
but we did not authorize that either.

4. "We replaced the O2 sensors free of charge." That's great
considering it was part of our warranty plan.

5. "We replaced the A/C switch on the blower motor." I asked if
they meant the "blower motor switch" and they assured me no, they
meant the "A/C blower switch." I have little clue so did not debate
it.

6. "Oh, and the check engine light was not caused by the O2 sensors.
For that we had to replace the IMRC motor which controls a flap on
the intake." The only IMRC-anything I know of is the IMRC actuator
and only know that it is connected directly to the intake manifold.
Does that have anything to do with the heater? No clue.

Also I asked, "Didn't you guys say that it was the O2 sensors that
caused the check engine light to come on?" They said, "Yeah, but we
were guessing."

So I asked, "How come you couldn't guess on the rest of the stuff
about the heater and A/C and let us know what was involved?" They
said, "Because you cannot give a free estimate on something like
that. You have to actually rip it apart and see what's going on."

I said, "Then why didn't you or Brian (the manager of the car
dealership) contact us to let us know your intentions?" Their
response, "Brian OK'd the work. He told us to go ahead with
everything. Look now... Brian is a good guy, he was trying to help
ya'll." At that point I had heard what I wanted to and told them
thanks, I was done.

They asked if the owner wanted to continue to take apart the dash and
replace the heater core claiming that it would be AT LEAST another
$650 to do so. I was not buying that (literally).

They called Tammy (Brian's assistant manager) and she told us that
they would not be willing to refinance the cost into the loan if we
did not allow the mechanics to finish.

I told her that I had 3 things to say:

1. We are not going to be held responsible for work you and or Brian
OK'd without our consent, therefore until we talk to Brian we CANNOT
say OK to more repairs.

Brian was now out of town. Hell of a manager to say he was going to
keep a customer informed and then leave the same afternoon on a
"business trip" that would leave him gone for the rest of the week.

2. The mechanics have already informed us that the $541.32 worth of
work they have completed thus far HAS NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM (which we
verified moments after driving it).

3. For you to say to the owner that if we leave with the vehicle now
you will not be willing to finance further repairs into the loan
tells me that you are trying to "scare" us into leaving the vehicle
behind for more repairs.

Mix that with Brian giving the OK for unauthorized work AND the fact
that the mechanics have NO CLUE what the problem is tells me there is
a serious problem and until we talk to Brian we are not signing
anything nor agreeing to more repairs.

Tammy told the mechanics to let us have our car and she would inform
Brian of what has occurred.

Now seriously... the heater and A/C do the EXACT same thing as before
it got sent there. Turn it on whilst idling and it does NOTHING
until you hit the gas.

It also seemed REALLY strange to me that we show up unannounced aside
from calling Tammy while we were on the road and busting an immediate
U-turn when she told us the location of the vehicle, that the car was
FULLY intact. Nothing was taken apart. The only things we noticed
is all the contents of the inside of the van were removed. As in,
our dog food, cat food, bags and bags of children's clothing we had
at the flea market last weekend, a box of VHS's we were hocking,
diapers, and a box of books. Oh, and the middle seat of the vehicle
(a van). Why did this stuff have to be removed? Beats the hell out
of me.

Also, I now know why they were so secretive about where they took our
car. We told them that we had dog food and cat food in the vehicle,
which we did, so they reluctantly told us where the car was -- a
backwoods mechanic located about 14 miles south of us. No big deal
there, except they had us drive the vehicle 9 miles north to the
dealership only to then drive it almost 24 miles back? Of which they
had also planned on driving it BACK to the dealership for us to make
pickup and sign more papers stating that we would incur the total
cost.

Dirty rotten bastards...

So, thanks for your time and patience. And if you or anyone has any
further opinions, ideas, or words of wisdom, feel free to lay them on
me. I am a grateful listener.

Thanks!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

>Thanks, Pete. We did in fact contact a lawyer today and immediately
>went to pick up our car.
>
>Here is what was done, what our bill is, and what the mechanic had to
>say:
>
>1. "We blowed the heater core twice." Whatever the hell that was
>supposed to mean. Are they telling me that they put 2 heater cores
>in and they both failed immediately? Then he tells me most likely
>the dash has to come apart to replace the heater core. Um...

Likely means they diconnected the heater hoses and 'flushed' the core
out. Look for the heater hose clamps at the firewall and see if they
have been disturbed.
>
>2. "We replaced the air filter, it was dirty as hell." Cool. But
>we did not authorize that.

Filter is a nice touch but I have to ask what that has to do with the
current issue. Check to see if you have a new filter.
>
>3. "We refilled it with anti-freeze, cause it was a mite low." OK,
>but we did not authorize that either.

Also a nice touch but irrelevant unless some was lost in the 'flush'
process.
>
>4. "We replaced the O2 sensors free of charge." That's great
>considering it was part of our warranty plan.

O2 sensor is another so what? except they can turn the 'engine lite'
on.
>
>5. "We replaced the A/C switch on the blower motor." I asked if
>they meant the "blower motor switch" and they assured me no, they
>meant the "A/C blower switch." I have little clue so did not debate
>it.

There is a separate switch that activates the AC circuitry and it may
be part of the blower switch. I am not aware of an Ac switch on the
blower motor. This doen't sound right.
>
>6. "Oh, and the check engine light was not caused by the O2 sensors.
>For that we had to replace the IMRC motor which controls a flap on
>the intake." The only IMRC-anything I know of is the IMRC actuator
>and only know that it is connected directly to the intake manifold.
>Does that have anything to do with the heater? No clue.

Idle speed control motor (solenoid). This thing comes under a bunch
of different names and does control the idle speed. Take the
vehicle to another shop and ask a real mechanic to point it out to you
and see if it's 'new'.
>
>Also I asked, "Didn't you guys say that it was the O2 sensors that
>caused the check engine light to come on?" They said, "Yeah, but we
>were guessing."

They should have pulled trouble codes out before replacing anything,
and calling you to OK the costs involved for the parts and labor.
>
>So I asked, "How come you couldn't guess on the rest of the stuff
>about the heater and A/C and let us know what was involved?" They
>said, "Because you cannot give a free estimate on something like
>that. You have to actually rip it apart and see what's going on."

I somewhat agree. Locating a goofy problem is difficult, especially
when you lack the experience to know what to look for. An authorized
dealer mechanic would have known where to look.
>
>I said, "Then why didn't you or Brian (the manager of the car
>dealership) contact us to let us know your intentions?" Their
>response, "Brian OK'd the work. He told us to go ahead with
>everything. Look now... Brian is a good guy, he was trying to help
>ya'll." At that point I had heard what I wanted to and told them
>thanks, I was done.

How can this guy be a nice guy and make money selling vehicles?
>
>They asked if the owner wanted to continue to take apart the dash and
>replace the heater core claiming that it would be AT LEAST another
>$650 to do so. I was not buying that (literally).

Heater core is not your problem. 650$ seems rather excessive. In an
other post someone indicated a possible vacuum leak. Go with that
and the belts slipping and the idle speed too low before spending any
big bucks.
>
>They called Tammy (Brian's assistant manager) and she told us that
>they would not be willing to refinance the cost into the loan if we
>did not allow the mechanics to finish.

Here is where you DOCUMENT everything to date and get a second opinion
from an authorized dealer shop in writing. Pay attention to whether
new parts were installed.
>
>I told her that I had 3 things to say:
>
>1. We are not going to be held responsible for work you and or Brian
>OK'd without our consent, therefore until we talk to Brian we CANNOT
>say OK to more repairs.

Stick with this story.

>Brian was now out of town. Hell of a manager to say he was going to
>keep a customer informed and then leave the same afternoon on a
>"business trip" that would leave him gone for the rest of the week.

Sound more like Brian screwed up and is in hiding. You likely have
interesting questions that he would have difficulty answering.
>
>2. The mechanics have already informed us that the $541.32 worth of
>work they have completed thus far HAS NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM (which we
>verified moments after driving it).

541$ for a heater core flush, some Afreeze, an airfilter and an Idle
speed motor, but the O2 sensor is free???? That Idle speed motor
should have been covered by the warranty like the O2 sensor. 541$ for
the rest is bullshit.
>
>3. For you to say to the owner that if we leave with the vehicle now
>you will not be willing to finance further repairs into the loan
>tells me that you are trying to "scare" us into leaving the vehicle
>behind for more repairs.

Something is wrong with this picture and why would you want to finance
repair costs with the guy who sold the vehicle? Sounds like a built
in money factory.
>
>Mix that with Brian giving the OK for unauthorized work AND the fact
>that the mechanics have NO CLUE what the problem is tells me there is
>a serious problem and until we talk to Brian we are not signing
>anything nor agreeing to more repairs.

Good plan. And do not take the vehicle back there until this whole
matter is sorted out. And maybe not after that either.
>
>Tammy told the mechanics to let us have our car and she would inform
>Brian of what has occurred.

Smart move on her part. Now wait and see if the 'warranties' are
voided because you took the vehicle with out those 'needed' repairs.
DOCUMENT everything.

>
>Now seriously... the heater and A/C do the EXACT same thing as before
>it got sent there. Turn it on whilst idling and it does NOTHING
>until you hit the gas.
>
>It also seemed REALLY strange to me that we show up unannounced aside
>from calling Tammy while we were on the road and busting an immediate
>U-turn when she told us the location of the vehicle, that the car was
>FULLY intact. Nothing was taken apart. The only things we noticed
>is all the contents of the inside of the van were removed. As in,
>our dog food, cat food, bags and bags of children's clothing we had
>at the flea market last weekend, a box of VHS's we were hocking,
>diapers, and a box of books. Oh, and the middle seat of the vehicle
>(a van). Why did this stuff have to be removed? Beats the hell out
>of me.
>
>Also, I now know why they were so secretive about where they took our
>car. We told them that we had dog food and cat food in the vehicle,
>which we did, so they reluctantly told us where the car was -- a
>backwoods mechanic located about 14 miles south of us. No big deal
>there, except they had us drive the vehicle 9 miles north to the
>dealership only to then drive it almost 24 miles back? Of which they
>had also planned on driving it BACK to the dealership for us to make
>pickup and sign more papers stating that we would incur the total
>cost.
>
>Dirty rotten bastards...
>
OK first rule of business is - when money changes hands, you have no
friends. You cannot say nice guy and used car salesman in the same
sentence.

Don't know if your area requires a Certificate of Safety. But if the
heater blows cold at idle, how did that pass?

Take a hard look at all the items they claimed to have fixed/replaced.
While they may have been, this sounds way too fishy. DOCUMENT
everything because this ain't over yet. And take this to a real shop
with real mechanics for asecond look. What ever that costs will be a
damn sight cheaper than the route your now on.

Pete
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

"-Lost" <maventheextrawords.TakeThisOut@techie.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99C432627566lostthreads@216.196.97.136...
> Response from webpa <webpa.TakeThisOut@aol.com>:
>
> > On Oct 8, 4:07 pm, "-Lost" <maventheextrawo....TakeThisOut@techie.com> wrote:
> >> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem?
> >>
> >> Or rather... what IS the problem?
> >>
> >> Here is the scenario. If the car is parked, turning on the AC
> >> does nothing but blow what seems to be outside air, temperature
> >> wise.
> >>
> >> If you leave the AC on and take off, it immediately turns cold.
> >>
> >> The heat does the exact same thing. You can turn it on while
> >> idling or parked and it blows roughly coldish air (because it was
> >> cooler at night when we tested the heat).
> >>
> >> As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly
> >> warms up.
> >>
> >> What in the world is going on?
> >
> > It is normally helpful to specify the make, model, and year of the
> > vehicle. However, your problem seems fairly common: You have a
> > vacuum leak, probably in the engine's vacuum reservoir or its
> > one-way valve, or in one or more of the vacuum motors that operate
> > the doors (valves) in the heater/AC box, or in the plumbing
> > leading to it. When you press the gas, engine vacuum drops
> > dramatically, so whatever depends on the presence of vacuum...such
> > as the position of the doors and valves in the heater/AC
> > box...goes haywire.
>
> Oops, sorry! I always forget something fundamental. It is a 1998
> Ford Windstar.
>
> Thanks for the prompt response!
>
> Do you perhaps know how big of a job this is? And approximately how
> much it should cost?
>

Sounds like you have a problem with the "blend" door. The blend door
problem is well known. Do a google search for 1998 Windstar blend door
problem or some variant. You will get a large number of hits. Your problem
is probably related to the door actuator lever. A real pain to fix.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

On Oct 8, 3:07 pm, "-Lost" <maventheextrawo....DeleteThis@techie.com> wrote:
> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem?
>
> Or rather... what IS the problem?
>
> Here is the scenario. If the car is parked, turning on the AC does
> nothing but blow what seems to be outside air, temperature wise.
>
> If you leave the AC on and take off, it immediately turns cold.
>
> The heat does the exact same thing. You can turn it on while idling or
> parked and it blows roughly coldish air (because it was cooler at night
> when we tested the heat).
>
> As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly warms up.
>
> What in the world is going on?
>
> --
> -Lost
> Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
> kidding. No I am not.

Pay them for the *repairs* (even tho nothing was repaired)
Find a reputable shop! Ask all your friends, call AAA, call the BBB.
Contact the ASA (http://www.asashop.org/)., preferably not a
dealership, preferably one that specializes in your type of car.
Tell them about your situation, show them your reciepts.
Get your car fixed, then sue the first shop and get your money back.
They violated almost every area of repair shop ethics, performing
unapproved work is illegal in all 50 states; hiring incompetent tech's
is stupid *and* unethical.
They dont stand a chance in court.

HTH,
Ben
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

Response from "DodgeDriver" <wingnut.RemoveThis@invalid.net>:

> "-Lost" <maventheextrawords.RemoveThis@techie.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns99C432627566lostthreads@216.196.97.136...
>> Response from webpa <webpa.RemoveThis@aol.com>:
>>
>> > On Oct 8, 4:07 pm, "-Lost" <maventheextrawo....RemoveThis@techie.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same.
>> >> Problem?
>> >>
>> >> Or rather... what IS the problem?

<snip>

> Sounds like you have a problem with the "blend" door. The blend
> door
> problem is well known. Do a google search for 1998 Windstar blend
> door problem or some variant. You will get a large number of
> hits. Your problem is probably related to the door actuator
> lever. A real pain to fix.

OK, thanks. Will check that out too.

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

Response from cselby RemoveThis @mts.net:

>>Thanks, Pete. We did in fact contact a lawyer today and
>>immediately went to pick up our car.
>>
>>Here is what was done, what our bill is, and what the mechanic had
>>to say:
>>
>>1. "We blowed the heater core twice." Whatever the hell that was
>>supposed to mean. Are they telling me that they put 2 heater
>>cores in and they both failed immediately? Then he tells me most
>>likely the dash has to come apart to replace the heater core.
>>Um...
>
> Likely means they diconnected the heater hoses and 'flushed' the
> core out. Look for the heater hose clamps at the firewall and see
> if they have been disturbed.

As far as I can tell nothing has been disturbed. Unless of course
when they put it back on they covered it in a very realistic
dust/dirt grime solution. Seriously... I cannot even detect finger
prints.

>>2. "We replaced the air filter, it was dirty as hell." Cool.
>>But we did not authorize that.
>
> Filter is a nice touch but I have to ask what that has to do with
> the current issue. Check to see if you have a new filter.
>>
>>3. "We refilled it with anti-freeze, cause it was a mite low."
>>OK, but we did not authorize that either.
>
> Also a nice touch but irrelevant unless some was lost in the
> 'flush' process.
>>
>>4. "We replaced the O2 sensors free of charge." That's great
>>considering it was part of our warranty plan.
>
> O2 sensor is another so what? except they can turn the 'engine
> lite' on.

I figured that all three of these had something to do with "Ricky"
telling me that they had to guess at some things.

>>5. "We replaced the A/C switch on the blower motor." I asked if
>>they meant the "blower motor switch" and they assured me no, they
>>meant the "A/C blower switch." I have little clue so did not
>>debate it.
>
> There is a separate switch that activates the AC circuitry and it
> may be part of the blower switch. I am not aware of an Ac switch
> on the blower motor. This doen't sound right.

See, that's what I thought, but was not completely sure. I think
about it now and it was SO funny to see Ricky (and Corey, apparently
a junior mechanic) constantly glance down at the owner as they
feverishly jotted everything down that was said.

It reminded me of a crime drama where a rat was now extremely nervous
over having snitched on Fat Tony (or some other mobster name) and was
regretting every word that came out of their mouth and landed on
paper.

>>6. "Oh, and the check engine light was not caused by the O2
>>sensors. For that we had to replace the IMRC motor which controls
>>a flap on the intake." The only IMRC-anything I know of is the
>>IMRC actuator and only know that it is connected directly to the
>>intake manifold. Does that have anything to do with the heater?
>>No clue.
>
> Idle speed control motor (solenoid). This thing comes under a
> bunch of different names and does control the idle speed. Take
> the vehicle to another shop and ask a real mechanic to point it
> out to you and see if it's 'new'.

Gotcha. I am going to ask a Swope dealership and a mechanic that I
know personally to have a once over and see if they can point out the
"new" stuff to me.

>>Also I asked, "Didn't you guys say that it was the O2 sensors that
>>caused the check engine light to come on?" They said, "Yeah, but
>>we were guessing."
>
> They should have pulled trouble codes out before replacing
> anything, and calling you to OK the costs involved for the parts
> and labor.

That is what I thought they originally did! I asked the owner about
that part and they ASSURED me that Brian and the mechanic, Ricky,
CHECKED to see what it was and that it was the O2 sensors causing the
check engine light.

So I wondered... what the hell does, "We checked... and it's the O2
sensors." mean?

>>So I asked, "How come you couldn't guess on the rest of the stuff
>>about the heater and A/C and let us know what was involved?" They
>>said, "Because you cannot give a free estimate on something like
>>that. You have to actually rip it apart and see what's going on."
>
> I somewhat agree. Locating a goofy problem is difficult,
> especially when you lack the experience to know what to look for.
> An authorized dealer mechanic would have known where to look.

I knew that, but of course did not know WHAT constituted a goofy
problem. Luckily I have you smart gentlemen to help. : )

>>I said, "Then why didn't you or Brian (the manager of the car
>>dealership) contact us to let us know your intentions?" Their
>>response, "Brian OK'd the work. He told us to go ahead with
>>everything. Look now... Brian is a good guy, he was trying to
>>help ya'll." At that point I had heard what I wanted to and told
>>them thanks, I was done.
>
> How can this guy be a nice guy and make money selling vehicles?

I thought the SAME thing. The owner of the vehicle was so hell bent
(literally, we argued about it) on the fact that Brian was supposedly
"helping" them. I said, "How exactly does that man making money off
of you make you think he's your friend?" It was so kooky, but
eventually the owner got the hint. Especially after yesterday's
events.

>>They asked if the owner wanted to continue to take apart the dash
>>and replace the heater core claiming that it would be AT LEAST
>>another $650 to do so. I was not buying that (literally).
>
> Heater core is not your problem. 650$ seems rather excessive.
> In an other post someone indicated a possible vacuum leak. Go
> with that and the belts slipping and the idle speed too low before
> spending any big bucks.

Gotcha.

>>They called Tammy (Brian's assistant manager) and she told us that
>>they would not be willing to refinance the cost into the loan if
>>we did not allow the mechanics to finish.
>
> Here is where you DOCUMENT everything to date and get a second
> opinion from an authorized dealer shop in writing. Pay attention
> to whether new parts were installed.

OK, I am adding that to the list of things to ask from the dealership
and the mechanic I know.

>>I told her that I had 3 things to say:
>>
>>1. We are not going to be held responsible for work you and or
>>Brian OK'd without our consent, therefore until we talk to Brian
>>we CANNOT say OK to more repairs.
>
> Stick with this story.

Yes sir!

>>Brian was now out of town. Hell of a manager to say he was going
>>to keep a customer informed and then leave the same afternoon on a
>>"business trip" that would leave him gone for the rest of the
>>week.
>
> Sound more like Brian screwed up and is in hiding. You likely
> have interesting questions that he would have difficulty
> answering.

That is EXACTLY what I said to the owner.

I also said we should take it while we have the chance because I
figured if Brian was around he would have asked us if we planned on
paying or whatnot and had we said that we have been advised not to,
he would have most likely said well, then you can leave your vehicle
there.

Which was not going to happen...

>>2. The mechanics have already informed us that the $541.32 worth
>>of work they have completed thus far HAS NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM
>>(which we verified moments after driving it).
>
> 541$ for a heater core flush, some Afreeze, an airfilter and an
> Idle speed motor, but the O2 sensor is free???? That Idle speed
> motor should have been covered by the warranty like the O2 sensor.
> 541$ for the rest is bullshit.

This is why I had already had plans to ask about everything at other
places.

Just a quick run of things told me that we should have had in the
vicinity of $100 worth of stuff done. And that is counting if they
expected us to pay for the unauthorized coolant and filter.

But I almost lost it when they announced the almost $600 bill and
THEN SAID, "It's pretty much doing the same thing as it was before.
You let it idle and it just blows how it wants to. Give it some gas
though and boy you got some of the hottest heat and some of the
coldest air."

Our cell phones had bad reception where we were so I radioed the
owner telling them to pull over. We pulled off in a parking lot and
both tried to speak at once. I let them go first and it was the
exact same thing I was going to say...

"Is it just me or did those mechanics just tell us that they charged
us almost $600 but have not done anything to fix it?"

"Yep."

>>3. For you to say to the owner that if we leave with the vehicle
>>now you will not be willing to finance further repairs into the
>>loan tells me that you are trying to "scare" us into leaving the
>>vehicle behind for more repairs.
>
> Something is wrong with this picture and why would you want to
> finance repair costs with the guy who sold the vehicle? Sounds
> like a built in money factory.

The owner thought it might be wise to refinance it through them to
cut down on some of our out of pocket expenses. We have a large
family trip coming up with tons of expenses, so they thought it would
help there.

Having known what I know now though, I would have not taken the
vehicle in at all.

>>Mix that with Brian giving the OK for unauthorized work AND the
>>fact that the mechanics have NO CLUE what the problem is tells me
>>there is a serious problem and until we talk to Brian we are not
>>signing anything nor agreeing to more repairs.
>
> Good plan. And do not take the vehicle back there until this
> whole matter is sorted out. And maybe not after that either.

Never again. We'll seek our own help rather than rely on this
dealership again.

It also proves a good point... a cheap car is A CHEAP CAR. You can
probably expect the dealer to be just as cheap.

>>Tammy told the mechanics to let us have our car and she would
>>inform Brian of what has occurred.
>
> Smart move on her part. Now wait and see if the 'warranties' are
> voided because you took the vehicle with out those 'needed'
> repairs. DOCUMENT everything.

She left a voice mail before we even made it home stating that our
warranties were no longer valid. This was because we did not allow
the mechanics to finish the job and we "were trying to cost the
dealership more money."

It is odd though... our warranty does not even cover the heater or
A/C so how are our warranties voided?

The O2 sensor was the only thing covered and supposedly they fixed
that.

>>Now seriously... the heater and A/C do the EXACT same thing as
>>before it got sent there. Turn it on whilst idling and it does
>>NOTHING until you hit the gas.
>>
>>It also seemed REALLY strange to me that we show up unannounced
>>aside from calling Tammy while we were on the road and busting an
>>immediate U-turn when she told us the location of the vehicle,
>>that the car was FULLY intact. Nothing was taken apart. The only
>>things we noticed is all the contents of the inside of the van
>>were removed. As in, our dog food, cat food, bags and bags of
>>children's clothing we had at the flea market last weekend, a box
>>of VHS's we were hocking, diapers, and a box of books. Oh, and
>>the middle seat of the vehicle (a van). Why did this stuff have
>>to be removed? Beats the hell out of me.
>>
>>Also, I now know why they were so secretive about where they took
>>our car. We told them that we had dog food and cat food in the
>>vehicle, which we did, so they reluctantly told us where the car
>>was -- a backwoods mechanic located about 14 miles south of us.
>>No big deal there, except they had us drive the vehicle 9 miles
>>north to the dealership only to then drive it almost 24 miles
>>back? Of which they had also planned on driving it BACK to the
>>dealership for us to make pickup and sign more papers stating that
>>we would incur the total cost.
>>
>>Dirty rotten bastards...
>>
> OK first rule of business is - when money changes hands, you have
> no friends. You cannot say nice guy and used car salesman in the
> same sentence.

Haha, sad but true!

> Don't know if your area requires a Certificate of Safety. But if
> the heater blows cold at idle, how did that pass?

I am not sure. I know we have something called "the lemon law," or
something like that. I will check though.

> Take a hard look at all the items they claimed to have
> fixed/replaced. While they may have been, this sounds way too
> fishy. DOCUMENT everything because this ain't over yet. And
> take this to a real shop with real mechanics for asecond look.
> What ever that costs will be a damn sight cheaper than the route
> your now on.

Yes sir! Everything is documented and still being documented as it
continues.

Thanks, Pete! You have been most helpful!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

Response from "benteaches@gmail.com" <benteaches.RemoveThis@gmail.com>:

> On Oct 8, 3:07 pm, "-Lost" <maventheextrawo....RemoveThis@techie.com> wrote:
>> AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Problem?
>>
>> Or rather... what IS the problem?
>>
>> Here is the scenario. If the car is parked, turning on the AC
>> does nothing but blow what seems to be outside air, temperature
>> wise.
>>
>> If you leave the AC on and take off, it immediately turns cold.
>>
>> The heat does the exact same thing. You can turn it on while
>> idling or parked and it blows roughly coldish air (because it was
>> cooler at night when we tested the heat).
>>
>> As soon as the gas is hit and we get going the heater quickly
>> warms up.
>>
>> What in the world is going on?
>
> Pay them for the *repairs* (even tho nothing was repaired)
> Find a reputable shop! Ask all your friends, call AAA, call the
> BBB. Contact the ASA (http://www.asashop.org/)., preferably not a
> dealership, preferably one that specializes in your type of car.
> Tell them about your situation, show them your reciepts.
> Get your car fixed, then sue the first shop and get your money
> back. They violated almost every area of repair shop ethics,
> performing unapproved work is illegal in all 50 states; hiring
> incompetent tech's is stupid *and* unethical.
> They dont stand a chance in court.

Gotcha. I am going to check with ALL of those places first thing in
the morning and see what they tell me.

Also, I am going to withhold payment until this afternoon when we
talk to the lawyer again. Their advisement was to refuse payment for
2 reasons:

1. To see if the dealership attempted to keep the car.

That would have been illegal since we are current on payments, have
it insured and something else they said... I forgot...

2. Nothing was authorized. No work orders or ANYTHING were signed
that said we were to be held responsible for payment before our car
was to be released.

That is partly why it would have been illegal to keep the car. Which
I think they were aware of because the assistant manager released the
car to us after trying to trick us into OK'ing further repairs.

After being updated with the rest of the information though they
might advise that we go ahead and pay it and which time we will (or
at the very least do the refinancing thing).

Thanks for the information, Ben. It was helpful!

--
-Lost
Remove the extra words to reply by e-mail. Don't e-mail me. I am
kidding. No I am not.
 >> Stay informed about: AC only cold when you hit the gas, heat does the same. Pro.. 

Response from "DodgeDriver" <wingnut.TakeThisOut@invalid.net>:

> Sounds like you have a problem with the "blend" door. The blend
> door problem is well known. Do a google search for 1998 Windstar
> blend door problem or some variant. You will get a large number
> of hits. Your problem is probably related to the door actuator
> lever. A real pain to fix.
<