ABS pedal feel?

ABS can be calibrated at manufacture to be optimal for dirt/gravel
performance; it's set to a tighter tolerance so that a wheel can push
up a mound of gravel and this aids braking performance. This aspect
of braking is what experienced dirt drivers miss when moving to std
ABS.

(My Forester btw has EBD which is ABS per wheel which helps further.)

As for braided steel lines, they really only pay for themselves with
hard consistent braking, as in racing or rallying. Rubber lines heat
up under these conditions and become relatively spongy.
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

I understood ABS will prevent the loss of traction which results in a skid,
especially on a wet road, and when the wheels lose traction the stopping
distance would be longer and uncontrolled.


"Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" <DwightSchrute RemoveThis @DunderMifflin.com> wrote in message
news:8qe2p3pmtfoarjvvfoiinbp0sino5h6ij5@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:06:00 -0800 (PST), Uncle Ben <ben RemoveThis @greenba.com>
> wrote:
>
>>You ask if others feel the same way about ABS. No, I don't. To me,
>>ABS is a way to stop in the minimum distance possible at my speed,
>>weight and tires.
>
> That's not correct.
>
> The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow
> control as it stops.
>
> Once a wheel locks, it has little traction. An anti-lock brake allows
> you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you.
> In other words, you can now steer around what you were going to hit,
> or in the worst case, hit it straight on. Without ABS, you might get
> sideways, which allows less occupant protection, eliminates any chance
> of missing the obstruction, and can possibly roll the car over.
>
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

On Jan 18, 6:54 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
<DwightSchr....DeleteThis@DunderMifflin.com> wrote:
....
> The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow
> control as it stops.
>
> Once a wheel locks, it has little traction.  An anti-lock brake allows
> you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you.

I won't be dogmatic about it, but I don't understand the explanation.
How can stopping distance be shorter with less traction?

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

On Jan 19, 6:08 am, Uncle Ben <b... DeleteThis @greenba.com> wrote:
> On Jan 18, 6:54 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"<DwightSchr... DeleteThis @DunderMifflin.com> wrote:
>
> ....
>
> > The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow
> > control as it stops.
>
> > Once a wheel locks, it has little traction.  An anti-lock brake allows
> > you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you.
>
> I won't be dogmatic about it, but I don't understand the explanation.
> How can stopping distance be shorter with less traction?
>
> Ben

In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes
more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft
material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS
always stops you shorter.

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such
that whether ABS makes a big difference is important, then I wouldn't let
you drive my car.

<houndman DeleteThis @phonom.net> wrote in message
news:a90d8fb5-1eed-4988-9767-f8268e99e843@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On 18 Jan, 01:20, Carl 1 Lucky Texan <alcky... DeleteThis @swbell.not> wrote:
>> hound... DeleteThis @phonom.net wrote:
>> > On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >>Many cars have spongy brae feel. I too like a firm pedal feel. Might
>> >>be engineering or design
>>
>> >>On Jan 17, 8:47 pm, hound... DeleteThis @phonom.net wrote:
>>
>> >>>I'm not a fan of ABS, though I have little experience. The brakes on
>> >>>my new 07' Impreza don't start grabbing till I am into the pedal a
>> >>>bit, and today I had to stop fast, and the pedal went down and felt
>> >>>mushy. I told the dealer to check it before I took the car, and they
>> >>>said it was right. I'm used to a hard pedal that starts braking as
>> >>>soon as I press on it, and feels hard. Maybe the pads are just hard,
>> >>>but the brakes don't feel confidence inspiring.
>>
>> >>> The best pads I put on a car were cheap, and wore out in half the
>> >>>miles that pads usually did, but grabbed the rotor So well, I had to
>> >>>learn how to brake again. First time I had to stop short at speed,
>> >>>because a new Vette stopped for an Long amber light on a highway, and
>> >>>I didn't want to hit it, but I stopped 6 car lengths further back than
>> >>>I usually would have with the amt of pressure on the pedal. Felt kinda
>> >>>foolish, like I didn't know how to drive the 10yr old car with 140K on
>> >>>it, but then I realized I was driving it Much faster than I usually
>> >>>did, and the car had Great brakes, and realized it stopped So well
>> >>>with the cheap pads, that they were making me More confident in the
>> >>>stopping ability.
>>
>> >>> I plan to pull the fuse on the ABS, to see how the brakes work
>> >>>without it, but want to learn the system before I do it. Doesn't seem
>> >>>like that would affect where the pedal makes the brakes start to grab,
>> >>>or give the pedal a more solid feel. I believe you need a Select
>> >>>Monitor to open the valves in the system to bleed them, so going to
>> >>>get complicated if I have to go to the dealer to have it done, unless
>> >>>pulling the fuses changes that. They Already said they were right..
>>
>> >>>VF
>>
>> > I read that Sube and many other co's use a dual stage vacuum booster,
>> > that causes the spongy feel, and flex brake lines that expand. Found
>> > a single stage booster, but the master cyl has to be replaced also, in
>> > newer Sube's.
>>
>> > VF
>>
>> I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any
>> improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3
>> years down the line when the rubber was old.
>> Better tires will also increase 'normal' brake 'feel' somewhat. The ABS
>> will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop
>> rotation - tires stop cars.
>>
>> Carl
>> 1 Lucky Texan
>>
>> --
>> to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
>
> Back in the 60's I ordered a car with over sized brakes without power
> assist, because the assist made them too sensitive, and I wanted a
> nice feel. That was back in the drum brake days. Ordered it without a
> radio also, and the dealer called to double check. Also wanted to make
> sure that I wanted black on a 69" Charger. When I had told the
> salesmen I wanted to order a car, they said, they might have one in
> stock. When I told them I wanted black with a black vinyl roof, they
> said, You'll have to order that. When the movie Bullitt came out,
> everyone thought I had seen the movie.
>
> VF
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

Glad to see someone who has actually considered the facts here besides
myself. There have been many tests done, many posted on the internet about
stopping distances. I read one of the first, many years ago when BMW
introduced ABS on cars where a magazine tested the same car with and without
ABS. All you have to do is look for this information. Lots of tests also
with the few motorcycles that offer ABS. Look hard enough, and you can read
about aircraft ABS where it all started.

Measuring stopping distance is not that hard on a given surface.

In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these
surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always liked
ABS is on mixed surfaces where maybe one or two wheels have good traction,
and the ABS system can respond only to the wheels that have lost traction.
Unless you can use four brake pedals at the same time, this will be hard for
any driver to ever achieve.

I am on my 5th ABS equipped vehicle, and the next one will also have ABS.

Blair


"Uncle Ben" <ben.DeleteThis@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:3208957f-4138-4518-a5d7-86c7915ce5e0@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 19, 6:08 am, Uncle Ben <b....DeleteThis@greenba.com> wrote:
> On Jan 18, 6:54 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R
> Y)"<DwightSchr....DeleteThis@DunderMifflin.com> wrote:
>
> ....
>
> > The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow
> > control as it stops.
>
> > Once a wheel locks, it has little traction. An anti-lock brake allows
> > you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you.
>
> I won't be dogmatic about it, but I don't understand the explanation.
> How can stopping distance be shorter with less traction?
>
> Ben

In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes
more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft
material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS
always stops you shorter.

Ben
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

"Bonehenge (B A R R Y)" <DwightSchrute RemoveThis @DunderMifflin.com> wrote in message
news:44q4p35v3bbil3tftdbt6gqmtc0k23oo1i@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:57:01 -0600, "Blair Baucom"
> <jbbaucom RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these
>>surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always
>>liked
>>ABS is on mixed surfaces where maybe one or two wheels have good traction,
>>and the ABS system can respond only to the wheels that have lost traction.
>>Unless you can use four brake pedals at the same time, this will be hard
>>for
>>any driver to ever achieve.
>
> I'm with ya'!
>
> I fly airplanes with and without ABS, and without ABS, it can be
> difficult to manage TWO brake pedals, and I have two feet. <G>
>
> It's all about control.
>
>
> I wouldn't buy a car without it, either.

I'm with both of you. Most 'issues' with ABS are myths. Once the tires
break loose there is actualy less traction and no control. I am on my third
ABS-equipped car and will always have it; even if I have to pay extra for
the option.
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:18:04 -0500, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
<DwightSchrute DeleteThis @DunderMifflin.com> wrote:

>I fly airplanes with and without ABS, and without ABS, it can be
>difficult to manage TWO brake pedals, and I have two feet. <G>
>It's all about control.
>I wouldn't buy a car without it, either.

The first (I think) ABS brakes on aircraft in the UK were called
Maxarets (the maker, I assume), installed on jet fighters in the 50's.

They were immediately popular with pilots because for the first time
you could apply full braking in an emergency, or on a short runway,
without fear of wheels locking up and bursting tires. I can never
understand why they took so long to appear on cars.

I drive on snow and ice 4-5 months of the year now and find ABS brakes
useful almost on a daily basis because one can use them to test how
slippery a road is. By giving a quick jab to feel the point the ABS
kicks in, one can easily gauge the state of the road without fear of
losing control.
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:02:42 -0800 (PST), houndman.RemoveThis@phonom.net <houndman.RemoveThis@phonom.net> wrote:
> Most of what I read, ABS takes longer to stop, but the Only advantage
> is being able to steer while braking, but rollovers are 50% higher,
> because if being able to steer, to avoid an accident, a tire gets
> into dirt, it can dig in and the vehicle is more likely to flip. I'd
> rather have Shorter braking distances, and Me avoiding contact.

I'm not entirely sold on ABS either but IMHO being able to turn during an
emergency stop is definately valuable. This past summer I had someone pull
out in front of me from a parking lot while I was traveling around 45-50 and
she compounded the problem by stopping in middle of the road once she saw me
coming. There was no way I could stop in time and I distinctly remember
wondering how far into her door my bumper was going to go. I ended up
getting on the brakes hard until the last moment and then letting off and
swerving around. ABS really didn't play any part but turning was certainly
better than JUST slamming on the brakes and hoping for the best.

--
Ray
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel? 

On 19 Jan, 03:18, "GJ" <some... DeleteThis @microsoft.com> wrote:
> I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such
> that whether ABS makes a big difference is important, then I wouldn't let
> you drive my car.
>
> <hound... DeleteThis @phonom.net> wrote in message
>
> news:a90d8fb5-1eed-4988-9767-f8268e99e843@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On 18 Jan, 01:20, Carl 1 Lucky Texan <alcky... DeleteThis @swbell.not> wrote:
> >> hound... DeleteThis @phonom.net wrote:
> >> > On 17 Jan, 23:51, bigjimp... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> >>Many cars have spongy brae feel. I too like a firm pedal feel. Might
> >> >>be engineering or design
>
> >> >>On Jan 17, 8:47 pm, hound... DeleteThis @phonom.net wrote:
>
> >> >>>I'm not a fan of ABS, though I have little experience. The brakes on
> >> >>>my new 07' Impreza don't start grabbing till I am into the pedal a
> >> >>>bit, and today I had to stop fast, and the pedal went down and felt
> >> >>>mushy. I told the dealer to check it before I took the car, and they
> >> >>>said it was right. I'm used to a hard pedal that starts braking as
> >> >>>soon as I press on it, and feels hard. Maybe the pads are just hard,
> >> >>>but the brakes don't feel confidence inspiring.
>
> >> >>> The best pads I put on a car were cheap, and wore out in half the
> >> >>>miles that pads usually did, but grabbed the rotor So well, I had to
> >> >>>learn how tobrakeagain. First time I had to stop short at speed,
> >> >>>because a new Vette stopped for an Long amber light on a highway, and
> >> >>>I didn't want to hit it, but I stopped 6 car lengths further back than
> >> >>>I usually would have with the amt of pressure on the pedal. Felt kinda
> >> >>>foolish, like I didn't know how to drive the 10yr old car with 140K on
> >> >>>it, but then I realized I was driving it Much faster than I usually
> >> >>>did, and the car had Great brakes, and realized it stopped So well
> >> >>>with the cheap pads, that they were making me More confident in the
> >> >>>stopping ability.
>
> >> >>> I plan to pull the fuse on the ABS, to see how the brakes work
> >> >>>without it, but want to learn the system before I do it. Doesn't seem
> >> >>>like that would affect where the pedal makes the brakes start to grab,
> >> >>>or give the pedal a more solid feel. I believe you need a Select
> >> >>>Monitor to open the valves in the system to bleed them, so going to
> >> >>>get complicated if I have to go to the dealer to have it done, unless
> >> >>>pulling the fuses changes that. They Already said they were right..
>
> >> >>>VF
>
> >> > I read that Sube and many other co's use a dual stage vacuumbooster,
> >> > that causes the spongy feel, and flexbrakelines that expand. Found
> >> > a single stagebooster, but the master cyl has to be replaced also, in
> >> > newer Sube's.
>
> >> > VF
>
> >> I put the Soob stainless braided lines on my WRX and did not notice any
> >> improvement whatsoever. I have been told it WOULD have been noticeable 3
> >> years down the line when the rubber was old.
> >> Better tires will also increase 'normal'brake'feel' somewhat. The ABS
> >> will kick in later if you have good rubber on the road. Brakes stop
> >> rotation - tires stop cars.
>
> >> Carl
> >> 1 Lucky Texan
>
> >> --
> >> to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
>
> > Back in the 60's I ordered a car with over sized brakes without power
> > assist, because the assist made them too sensitive, and I wanted a
> > nice feel. That was back in the drumbrakedays. Ordered it without a
> > radio also, and the dealer called to double check. Also wanted to make
> > sure that I wanted black on a 69" Charger. When I had told the
> > salesmen I wanted to order a car, they said, they might have one in
> > stock. When I told them I wanted black with a black vinyl roof, they
> > said, You'll have to order that. When the movie Bullitt came out,
> > everyone thought I had seen the movie.
>
> > VF

It's a felling of comfort and confidence. I Wouldn't want to drive
Your car if the car wore me out, having to tense different muscles
than Should be needed to brake a car, like if the brakes are too
sensitive your calves and ankle will have to tighten not to hit them
too hard, and with a soft pedal that there is a lot of travel, you
are pushing your leg further, and Hoping the brakes start to work.
What's wrong with a Solid pedal that Starts working as Soon as
pressure is applied?? No unncessary muscle tensing or extending to Do
The Job. I always found too soft or sensitive, as bad as too hard.
whether braking, steering, or ride. Both will tire you out.

Looked into replacing the dual stage booster with a Single stage one
to Solve the problem, but the master cyl is different, and then the
brakes will have to be bled, and with the ABS and Select Monitor,
that's means the dealer doing it, and any grief about the change.
Umm!! Guess I'll see how it feels disconnecting the booster, thought
with disks, the pedal is supposed to be Really Hard, but one way to
find out. I once looked at a new car with disks that power was an
option. Guess I'll do it when I try pulling the ABS fuses. Would be
Nice if that fixed the mushy pedal, but I'm doubting it. Sounds like
many mfgs use the dual stage booster, and people who Like to Drive,
Don't Like It...

VF
 >> Stay informed about: ABS pedal feel?