83 Celica Poor mpg/power

On Jan 14, 12:00 am, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom>
wrote:
> <offwhitegh....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a50ba170-b734-4bc5-bf6d-d51326cfc75e@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi.
>
> > I recently bought an 83 Celica via ebay. Celica's that I had driven
> > in the past had a lot of power (for a 4 cylinder) and got good mpg.
>
> > Mine has 85k original, drives well and seems to be in really good
> > condition. But its not running as smooth or operating as well as my
> > friend's higher miles, more beat up Celica.
> > I thought a tune up might do the trick; I've adjusted the timing and
> > rpm. Replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor, rotor, oil, oil
> > filter, fuel filter, and added fuel injector cleaner.
> > The car runs better but still feels like it should be getting more
> > power and still only gets 20.5 mpg city highway combo (I understand I
> > should be getting around 30).
> > Now I'm thinking maybe it's the cat, it just passed admissions but I'm
> > running out of ideas and it kinda feels like a clogged cat (rumbling
> > at times, slow take offs, and funky rpm behaviors).
>
> > Does anyone have a good clogged cat test or think I should try to try
> > something else?
> > Like I said, I'm running low on ideas,
>
> > TIA
>
> I think an 83 Celica with a 22RE engine would get somewhere around 25 MPG
> highway unless you are really easy on the throttle.
>
> Follow PH@Boy's suggestions, and look at the air filter. If it is black and
> sooty, check the exhaust manifold for leaks or cracks. Take a look at the
> exhaust manifold when the car is warmed up in the dark. If it is glowing
> red, check for cracks in the exhaust manifold and try disconnecting the
> exhaust pipe from the manifold and see if the engine runs better. If it
> does, there may be a restriction in the exhaust. I believe that the heat
> shield on the exhaust manifold should have louvers - if it is solid, there
> may be an updated manifold.
>
> Also check for cracks, holes, or gaps in the black plastic tube between the
> air filter housing and throttle body, and check for vacuum leaks. When you
> adjusted timing, does it advance properly when you rev the engine? If not,
> check the timing advance (I don't remember if it has vacuum and mechanical
> advance or if it has the wide rotor and electronic spark advance).
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks for the responses.

Things I already checked.

Same air filter, didn't replace airfilter because it looked brand new.
Old plugs looked ok (all same, no oil), probably didn't have to be
replace but I already bought new ones.
As far as I can tell there is no intake or exhaust manifold leak.
Breaks aren't dragging, and trans fluid is clear w/o shards.

Tomorrow I will try to check exhaust and cylinders compression and get
back to you guys.

One thing I forgot to say, the car runs better after it worms up, not
100% but better. my brother has an 78 toyota w/ a 20R moter, his car
runs on the low end of the temp scale and i run in the mid. Also when
running at high rpm for long distances the oil pressure goes up to 3/4,
my mechanic says that's normal but idk.

thanks

Any additional help would be helpful.
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

<offwhiteghost DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a50ba170-b734-4bc5-bf6d-d51326cfc75e@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> Hi.
>
> I recently bought an 83 Celica via ebay. Celica's that I had driven
> in the past had a lot of power (for a 4 cylinder) and got good mpg.
>
> Mine has 85k original, drives well and seems to be in really good
> condition. But its not running as smooth or operating as well as my
> friend's higher miles, more beat up Celica.
> I thought a tune up might do the trick; I've adjusted the timing and
> rpm. Replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor, rotor, oil, oil
> filter, fuel filter, and added fuel injector cleaner.
> The car runs better but still feels like it should be getting more
> power and still only gets 20.5 mpg city highway combo (I understand I
> should be getting around 30).
> Now I'm thinking maybe it's the cat, it just passed admissions but I'm
> running out of ideas and it kinda feels like a clogged cat (rumbling
> at times, slow take offs, and funky rpm behaviors).
>
> Does anyone have a good clogged cat test or think I should try to try
> something else?
> Like I said, I'm running low on ideas,
>
> TIA

I think an 83 Celica with a 22RE engine would get somewhere around 25 MPG
highway unless you are really easy on the throttle.

Follow PH@Boy's suggestions, and look at the air filter. If it is black and
sooty, check the exhaust manifold for leaks or cracks. Take a look at the
exhaust manifold when the car is warmed up in the dark. If it is glowing
red, check for cracks in the exhaust manifold and try disconnecting the
exhaust pipe from the manifold and see if the engine runs better. If it
does, there may be a restriction in the exhaust. I believe that the heat
shield on the exhaust manifold should have louvers - if it is solid, there
may be an updated manifold.

Also check for cracks, holes, or gaps in the black plastic tube between the
air filter housing and throttle body, and check for vacuum leaks. When you
adjusted timing, does it advance properly when you rev the engine? If not,
check the timing advance (I don't remember if it has vacuum and mechanical
advance or if it has the wide rotor and electronic spark advance).
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

offwhiteghost RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I recently bought an 83 Celica via ebay. Celica's that I had driven
> in the past had a lot of power (for a 4 cylinder) and got good mpg.
>
> Mine has 85k original, drives well and seems to be in really good
> condition. But its not running as smooth or operating as well as my
> friend's higher miles, more beat up Celica.
> I thought a tune up might do the trick; I've adjusted the timing and
> rpm. Replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor, rotor, oil, oil
> filter, fuel filter, and added fuel injector cleaner.
> The car runs better but still feels like it should be getting more
> power and still only gets 20.5 mpg city highway combo (I understand I
> should be getting around 30).
> Now I'm thinking maybe it's the cat, it just passed admissions but I'm
> running out of ideas and it kinda feels like a clogged cat (rumbling
> at times, slow take offs, and funky rpm behaviors).
>
> Does anyone have a good clogged cat test or think I should try to try
> something else?
> Like I said, I'm running low on ideas,
>
> TIA
I doubt it's the converter since it did pass inspection, but about two
psi differential would be the max to determine if it was restricting.
Start with a compression check on all cylinders, and if you have to, do
a leak down test on them. Check for any intake manifold air leaks. Did
the old plugs all look good? Check or swap out the coil. Check the
transmission and drive train for any unusual drag. It could be one or
many things on a twenty five year old car. Good luck!
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

<offwhiteghost.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e1f7857e-63d6-46c0-a2c1-73e3471aaab8@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
<snipped>
> Same air filter, didn't replace airfilter because it looked brand new.
> Old plugs looked ok (all same, no oil), probably didn't have to be
> replace but I already bought new ones.
> As far as I can tell there is no intake or exhaust manifold leak.
> Breaks aren't dragging, and trans fluid is clear w/o shards.
>
> Tomorrow I will try to check exhaust and cylinders compression and get
> back to you guys.
>
> One thing I forgot to say, the car runs better after it worms up, not
> 100% but better. my brother has an 78 toyota w/ a 20R moter, his car
> runs on the low end of the temp scale and i run in the mid. Also when
> running at high rpm for long distances the oil pressure goes up to 3/4,
> my mechanic says that's normal but idk.
>
> thanks
>
> Any additional help would be helpful.

Check the air filter every couple of weeks for a month or two and make sure
it does not get sooty quickly.

Hopefully, you installed the correct Denso or NGK plugs, and ignition parts;
some aftermarket brands can cause the symptoms you are describing. Some
aftermarket brands are fine, it is a hit-or-miss, depending on the
application.

I think the 22RE runs a little hotter than the 20R. Having the temp in the
middle of the scale is fine.

Having the oil pressure go up when running at high RPM for long distances is
normal and desirable.

If your car has an automatic transmission, the performance is quite a bit
less than the manual transmission.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

On Jan 14, 2:19 pm, Hachiroku <Hachiroku_a... DeleteThis @ae86.gts> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:51:30 -0800, offwhiteghost wrote:
>
> > Hi.
>
> > I recently bought an 83 Celica via ebay. Celica's that I had driven
> > in the past had a lot of power (for a 4 cylinder) and got good mpg.
>
> > Mine has 85k original, drives well and seems to be in really good
> > condition. But its not running as smooth or operating as well as my
> > friend's higher miles, more beat up Celica.
> > I thought a tune up might do the trick; I've adjusted the timing and
> > rpm. Replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor, rotor, oil, oil
> > filter, fuel filter, and added fuel injector cleaner.
> > The car runs better but still feels like it should be getting more
> > power and still only gets 20.5 mpg city highway combo (I understand I
> > should be getting around 30).
> > Now I'm thinking maybe it's the cat, it just passed admissions but I'm
> > running out of ideas and it kinda feels like a clogged cat (rumbling
> > at times, slow take offs, and funky rpm behaviors).
>
> > Does anyone have a good clogged cat test or think I should try to try
> > something else?
> > Like I said, I'm running low on ideas,
>
> > TIA
>
> Yeah: take the cat out, take an iron bar, and bust up the internals, and
> then replace the cat. If the car runs better, you need a new cat.
>
> But, I didn't tell you to do this, and I would buy a new cat ASAP, cause
> if you get caught it can result in jail time.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Vacuum pressure was good.
Cylinder pressure was in the ok range.
Exhaust didn't glow but I didn't have time to detach it or bang out
the honeycomb lol.

Timing advanced well but I noticed that it misfired and hit the 10 not
the 5 some of the time (idle). I think this might be the problem,
does anyone know what this might be?

also, does anyone know what type of milage i should be getting on an
22RE, 25 highway sounds low for a car that is only 2500lb.

Walter
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:51:30 -0800, offwhiteghost wrote:

>
> Hi.
>
> I recently bought an 83 Celica via ebay. Celica's that I had driven
> in the past had a lot of power (for a 4 cylinder) and got good mpg.
>
> Mine has 85k original, drives well and seems to be in really good
> condition. But its not running as smooth or operating as well as my
> friend's higher miles, more beat up Celica.
> I thought a tune up might do the trick; I've adjusted the timing and
> rpm. Replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor, rotor, oil, oil
> filter, fuel filter, and added fuel injector cleaner.
> The car runs better but still feels like it should be getting more
> power and still only gets 20.5 mpg city highway combo (I understand I
> should be getting around 30).
> Now I'm thinking maybe it's the cat, it just passed admissions but I'm
> running out of ideas and it kinda feels like a clogged cat (rumbling
> at times, slow take offs, and funky rpm behaviors).
>
> Does anyone have a good clogged cat test or think I should try to try
> something else?
> Like I said, I'm running low on ideas,
>
> TIA


Yeah: take the cat out, take an iron bar, and bust up the internals, and
then replace the cat. If the car runs better, you need a new cat.

But, I didn't tell you to do this, and I would buy a new cat ASAP, cause
if you get caught it can result in jail time.
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

<offwhiteghost.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:605ae138-8abf-4f30-9dd4-105a7d4d8b49@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
<snipped>

> Vacuum pressure was good.

You should have 14 to 16 in Hg at idle.

> Cylinder pressure was in the ok range.

No more than 10% difference between cylinders.

> Exhaust didn't glow but I didn't have time to detach it or bang out
> the honeycomb lol.
>
> Timing advanced well but I noticed that it misfired and hit the 10 not
> the 5 some of the time (idle). I think this might be the problem,
> does anyone know what this might be?
>

Are you talking about 10 and 5 degrees BTDC? IIRC, you have to short the
terminals under the diagnostic connector under the hood when setting base
timing. If you are getting misfiring in the same cylinder, check the
ignition wire and spark plug for that cylinder. If you are getting a random
misfire, check the coil.

> also, does anyone know what type of milage i should be getting on an
> 22RE, 25 highway sounds low for a car that is only 2500lb.
>
> Walter

As I mentioned before, 25-ish highway MPG is about right for that vintage
Celica. I drove about a couple dozen different Celicas with 20R and 22RE
engines and got 25 to 27 MPG on the highway.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:42:37 -0800, offwhiteghost wrote:

> On Jan 14, 2:19 pm, Hachiroku <Hachiroku_a....RemoveThis@ae86.gts> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:51:30 -0800, offwhiteghost wrote:
>>
>> > Hi.
>>
>> > I recently bought an 83 Celica via ebay. Celica's that I had driven
>> > in the past had a lot of power (for a 4 cylinder) and got good mpg.
>>
>> > Mine has 85k original, drives well and seems to be in really good
>> > condition. But its not running as smooth or operating as well as my
>> > friend's higher miles, more beat up Celica.
>> > I thought a tune up might do the trick; I've adjusted the timing and
>> > rpm. Replaced the sparkplugs, wires, distributor, rotor, oil, oil
>> > filter, fuel filter, and added fuel injector cleaner. The car runs
>> > better but still feels like it should be getting more power and still
>> > only gets 20.5 mpg city highway combo (I understand I should be
>> > getting around 30).
>> > Now I'm thinking maybe it's the cat, it just passed admissions but I'm
>> > running out of ideas and it kinda feels like a clogged cat (rumbling
>> > at times, slow take offs, and funky rpm behaviors).
>>
>> > Does anyone have a good clogged cat test or think I should try to try
>> > something else?
>> > Like I said, I'm running low on ideas,
>>
>> > TIA
>>
>> Yeah: take the cat out, take an iron bar, and bust up the internals, and
>> then replace the cat. If the car runs better, you need a new cat.
>>
>> But, I didn't tell you to do this, and I would buy a new cat ASAP, cause
>> if you get caught it can result in jail time.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Vacuum pressure was good.
> Cylinder pressure was in the ok range. Exhaust didn't glow but I didn't
> have time to detach it or bang out the honeycomb lol.
>
> Timing advanced well but I noticed that it misfired and hit the 10 not the
> 5 some of the time (idle). I think this might be the problem, does
> anyone know what this might be?
>
> also, does anyone know what type of milage i should be getting on an 22RE,
> 25 highway sounds low for a car that is only 2500lb.
>
> Walter


Well, I had an '85 GTS, but the engine was pretty ratty. I was getting
about 22-25 MPG even burning all the oil it was.

We replaced it with a '91 truck motor with 122,000 miles on it and gas
mileage went up to 27 MPG, pretty good for a car that weighs as much as an
older Celica.

But I had the timing issues, also. I think it just has to do with the age
of the engine. As long (if) it's running well, don't try to make a silk
purse out of a sow's ear. Sounds like you've done all the right stuff,
there's one more thing I would check, and that's for leaks in the intake
tube and the other vaccuum hoses around the car. Before I replaced the
engine, mine had a leak, and a tech friend of mine grabbed it with his
basketball player sized hands and the engine smoothed right out. I found a
couple '84-85s in a junkyard with all the pieces I needed, but they
flattened them before I got the parts.

Duct tape is your friend!
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

On Jan 15, 12:49 am, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom>
wrote:
> <offwhitegh... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:605ae138-8abf-4f30-9dd4-105a7d4d8b49@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> <snipped>
>
> > Vacuum pressure was good.
>
> You should have 14 to 16 in Hg at idle.
>
> > Cylinder pressure was in the ok range.
>
> No more than 10% difference between cylinders.
>
> > Exhaust didn't glow but I didn't have time to detach it or bang out
> > the honeycomb lol.
>
> > Timing advanced well but I noticed that it misfired and hit the 10 not
> > the 5 some of the time (idle). I think this might be the problem,
> > does anyone know what this might be?
>
> Are you talking about 10 and 5 degrees BTDC? IIRC, you have to short the
> terminals under the diagnostic connector under the hood when setting base
> timing. If you are getting misfiring in the same cylinder, check the
> ignition wire and spark plug for that cylinder. If you are getting a random
> misfire, check the coil.
>
> > also, does anyone know what type of milage i should be getting on an
> > 22RE, 25 highway sounds low for a car that is only 2500lb.
>
> > Walter
>
> As I mentioned before, 25-ish highway MPG is about right for that vintage
> Celica. I drove about a couple dozen different Celicas with 20R and 22RE
> engines and got 25 to 27 MPG on the highway.
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>You should have 14 to 16 in Hg at idle.

Vacuum pressure was actually about 18-19, should I be concerned and
what this means?

>Are you talking about 10 and 5 degrees BTDC? IIRC, you have to short the
>terminals under the diagnostic connector under the hood when setting base
>timing. If you are getting misfiring in the same cylinder, check the
>ignition wire and spark plug for that cylinder. If you are getting a random
>misfire, check the coil.

Wire and spark plug are good (checked connectivity/resistance). Got a
nice blue spark from the coil, don't know how to check it further.

I don't know what the diagnostic connector or where to look for it.
Messed around with the timing a little (w/o shorting out the
diagnostic connector) seemed to like it a little advanced. I'll try
to check all the vacuum hoses soon, maybe replace cuz there all
original.

Thanks for all the help so far, especially from ray.

Any more ideas would be much appreciated.
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

<offwhiteghost RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a0778dc5-f845-47dc-9d5e-651eb782644f@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 15, 12:49 am, "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom>
> wrote:
>> <offwhitegh... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:605ae138-8abf-4f30-9dd4-105a7d4d8b49@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> <snipped>
>>
>> > Vacuum pressure was good.
>>
>> You should have 14 to 16 in Hg at idle.
>>
>> > Cylinder pressure was in the ok range.
>>
>> No more than 10% difference between cylinders.
>>
>> > Exhaust didn't glow but I didn't have time to detach it or bang out
>> > the honeycomb lol.
>>
>> > Timing advanced well but I noticed that it misfired and hit the 10 not
>> > the 5 some of the time (idle). I think this might be the problem,
>> > does anyone know what this might be?
>>
>> Are you talking about 10 and 5 degrees BTDC? IIRC, you have to short the
>> terminals under the diagnostic connector under the hood when setting base
>> timing. If you are getting misfiring in the same cylinder, check the
>> ignition wire and spark plug for that cylinder. If you are getting a
>> random
>> misfire, check the coil.
>>
>> > also, does anyone know what type of milage i should be getting on an
>> > 22RE, 25 highway sounds low for a car that is only 2500lb.
>>
>> > Walter
>>
>> As I mentioned before, 25-ish highway MPG is about right for that vintage
>> Celica. I drove about a couple dozen different Celicas with 20R and 22RE
>> engines and got 25 to 27 MPG on the highway.
>> --
>>
>> Ray O
>> (correct punctuation to reply)
>>You should have 14 to 16 in Hg at idle.
>
> Vacuum pressure was actually about 18-19, should I be concerned and
> what this means?

Actually, "vacuum" is the opposite of "pressure" but I get what you mean.
There is no need to be concerned with 18-19 in Hg. Those numbers mean that
the engine is drawing properly and that there is very little wear. I had
given the 14 to 16 figure because I figured a 25 year old car wouldn't be
that good.

>
>>Are you talking about 10 and 5 degrees BTDC? IIRC, you have to short the
>>terminals under the diagnostic connector under the hood when setting base
>>timing. If you are getting misfiring in the same cylinder, check the
>>ignition wire and spark plug for that cylinder. If you are getting a
>>random
>>misfire, check the coil.
>
> Wire and spark plug are good (checked connectivity/resistance). Got a
> nice blue spark from the coil, don't know how to check it further.
>
> I don't know what the diagnostic connector or where to look for it.
> Messed around with the timing a little (w/o shorting out the
> diagnostic connector) seemed to like it a little advanced. I'll try
> to check all the vacuum hoses soon, maybe replace cuz there all
> original.
>
> Thanks for all the help so far, especially from ray.
>
> Any more ideas would be much appreciated.
>

Don't bother messing with the vacuum hoses or looking for a leak because the
numbers you posted are excellent. If the hoses are cracked, think about
replacing them, otherwise, leave them alone because the plastic hose
connectors are probably brittle after all this time. When you do eventually
replace the vacuum hoses, heat them up with a hair drier so they come off
more easily.

The spark plug check you did is probably as good as you can do without a
scope or a consistent miss.

If you don't see a diagnostic connector under the hood (usually near the
under-hood fuse box), then just check timing at idle. As you increase
engine RPM, the timing should advance in a pretty linear fashion. The specs
should be on a label under the hood or in a repair manual. For example, if
ignition timing is 10 degrees BTDC at 650 RPM, then it should be 15 at a
higher RPM.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:22:17 -0600, Ray O wrote:

> If you don't see a diagnostic connector under the hood (usually near the
> under-hood fuse box), then just check timing at idle. As you increase
> engine RPM, the timing should advance in a pretty linear fashion. The specs
> should be on a label under the hood or in a repair manual. For example, if
> ignition timing is 10 degrees BTDC at 650 RPM, then it should be 15 at a
> higher RPM.


Hey, Ray, on this car it's one of those green 2-pole connectors, located
about 6" behind the passenger's side headlight.
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

"Hachiroku" <Hachiroku_ae86 DeleteThis @ae86.gts> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.21.11.48.49.563000@ae86.gts...
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:22:17 -0600, Ray O wrote:
>
>> If you don't see a diagnostic connector under the hood (usually near the
>> under-hood fuse box), then just check timing at idle. As you increase
>> engine RPM, the timing should advance in a pretty linear fashion. The
>> specs
>> should be on a label under the hood or in a repair manual. For example,
>> if
>> ignition timing is 10 degrees BTDC at 650 RPM, then it should be 15 at a
>> higher RPM.
>
>
> Hey, Ray, on this car it's one of those green 2-pole connectors, located
> about 6" behind the passenger's side headlight.
>

Your memory is better than mine! The OP should make sure not to turn the
headlight manual knob.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:41:49 -0600, Ray O wrote:

>> Hey, Ray, on this car it's one of those green 2-pole connectors, located
>> about 6" behind the passenger's side headlight.
>>
>>
> Your memory is better than mine!

That's cause I just dealt with one of these 2.5 years ago!!!
 >> Stay informed about: 83 Celica Poor mpg/power