4WD really?

Thanks much. So, it's not broken but really a rather poor/compromised
design then?

My Name Is Nobody wrote:
> wrote in message
>
> >I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> > it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
> > Seems that the right rear tire just continued to spin in the mud. Front
> > wheels did their work but it seemed like there was no power to the left
> > rear wheel.
> >
> > Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
> > in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
> You have a PEG-Leg 4X4. A classic example of a 4X4 with an opened rear (and
> front too) axel this means that only the tire/axel with the least
> resistance/traction on each end will have power...
>
> You actually have a 2 wheel drive, whichever tire is the least useful on
> each axel will get your power. read my posts about getting stuck over a
> ditch with a peg-leg (so called 4X4) in the Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat
> from Ramp thread.
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

wrote in message

>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
> Seems that the right rear tire just continued to spin in the mud. Front
> wheels did their work but it seemed like there was no power to the left
> rear wheel.
>
> Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
> in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.
>
> Thanks.
>

You have a PEG-Leg 4X4. A classic example of a 4X4 with an opened rear (and
front too) axel this means that only the tire/axel with the least
resistance/traction on each end will have power...

You actually have a 2 wheel drive, whichever tire is the least useful on
each axel will get your power. read my posts about getting stuck over a
ditch with a peg-leg (so called 4X4) in the Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat
from Ramp thread.
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

Your truck has what are referred to as "open differentials." Open diffs are
the easiest to make, and they operate more smoothly from the perspective of
the vehicle operator. You have found the downside.

An open diff applies power equally to both rear tires (and front tires in
4WD) UNTIL one of the tires begins to slip due to lost traction, then the
diff will apply full power to the tire that has lost traction. The result in
4WD is that it is common to see diagonal tires spinning when traction is
compromised.

If the vehicle has limited slip differentials, then power ought to be
applied to the tire that still has traction. And, a vehicle that is equipped
with a locker will get equal power to both tires on the same axle without
regard to the status of the traction under each tire.




wrote in message

>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
> Seems that the right rear tire just continued to spin in the mud. Front
> wheels did their work but it seemed like there was no power to the left
> rear wheel.
>
> Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
> in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.
>
> Thanks.
>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

Nobody has commented on the original posters comments about his 98
Jeep Cherokee churning ALL wheels in mud/snow.....

If your Jeep is factory stock (meaning you haven't added lockers), the
best it has is some type of limited slip in the rear diff, giving you
no more than an almost 3wd.

It may be better in the mud and snow, but I'd hazzard to guess it has
more to do with weight distribution and conditions than the 4x4
system.

As has already been alluded to, most 4x4s out there have an open front
diff and many have open rear diffs, meaning there aren't many true
4x4s. Open diff 4x4s are still far superior to 2x4s, even those with
limited slips or lockers, if for no other reason than you do have two
ends of the vehicle working instead of just one end trying to push.

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4 (almost 3wd....)


On 11 Jan 2007 13:12:55 -0800, wrote:

>Thanks Jeff. I appreciate the explanation and should probably take the
>"4X4" emblem off the front of the truck! (LOL!)
>
>Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> Your truck has what are referred to as "open differentials." Open diffs are
>> the easiest to make, and they operate more smoothly from the perspective of
>> the vehicle operator. You have found the downside.
>>
>> An open diff applies power equally to both rear tires (and front tires in
>> 4WD) UNTIL one of the tires begins to slip due to lost traction, then the
>> diff will apply full power to the tire that has lost traction. The result in
>> 4WD is that it is common to see diagonal tires spinning when traction is
>> compromised.
>>
>> If the vehicle has limited slip differentials, then power ought to be
>> applied to the tire that still has traction. And, a vehicle that is equipped
>> with a locker will get equal power to both tires on the same axle without
>> regard to the status of the traction under each tire.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> wrote in message
>>
>> >I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>> > it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
>> > Seems that the right rear tire just continued to spin in the mud. Front
>> > wheels did their work but it seemed like there was no power to the left
>> > rear wheel.
>> >
>> > Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
>> > in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

That would be absurd. In the context of $WD, what you have is what they
build.

If you want more, then spend a few dollars and install a limited slip unit
in the differential, or install a locker for the ultimate in traction. Both
limited slip and lockers have overhead and baggage that an open diff hasn't
got, but they also offer significant enhancements to traction. Only you can
determine if the baggage outweighs the benefits.

I have a Jeep CJ5 that has a locker installed in both axles, and I would not
have it any other way, but there are many that would not want the set up
that I have. My locker builds stress that can unload at any time, and when
it does unload, it does it with lots of drama and noise. It can be very
unnerving to have the locker unload, but the traction is huge, and I need
traction when I am wheeling.




wrote in message

> Thanks Jeff. I appreciate the explanation and should probably take the
> "4X4" emblem off the front of the truck! (LOL!)
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> Your truck has what are referred to as "open differentials." Open diffs
>> are
>> the easiest to make, and they operate more smoothly from the perspective
>> of
>> the vehicle operator. You have found the downside.
>>
>> An open diff applies power equally to both rear tires (and front tires in
>> 4WD) UNTIL one of the tires begins to slip due to lost traction, then the
>> diff will apply full power to the tire that has lost traction. The result
>> in
>> 4WD is that it is common to see diagonal tires spinning when traction is
>> compromised.
>>
>> If the vehicle has limited slip differentials, then power ought to be
>> applied to the tire that still has traction. And, a vehicle that is
>> equipped
>> with a locker will get equal power to both tires on the same axle without
>> regard to the status of the traction under each tire.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> wrote in message
>>
>> >I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>> > it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
>> > Seems that the right rear tire just continued to spin in the mud. Front
>> > wheels did their work but it seemed like there was no power to the left
>> > rear wheel.
>> >
>> > Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
>> > in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

"My Name Is Nobody" wrote in message

> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
> open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
> traction to both axels?

One more time, and maybe it will sink in this time.

The open diff delivers equal torque to both tires on the same axle. Period.

When this changes, it's because one tire or the other LOSES traction, at
which point it gets all of the available power. The actuallity is that the
tire that retains traction still gets some power, this is why the high HP
car will move forward as the spinning tire spews smoke and rubber. But, for
all practical purposes, there is not enough power delivered to the tire with
traction to get a stuck vehicle moving, and it is a reasonable statement
that the traction challenged tire gets all of the available power.

We can debate the actual power distribution vis a vis the spinning tire and
the tire that is on solid ground, but it biols down to the fact that for all
of the power applied, the vehicle is not going anywhere.



When you stomp on it you only get one big long
> single black mark, never two. Because the open differential is never
> going to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...
>

While the result is true, the explanation is flawed. Torque and power are
equal until one tire loses its footing (traction).



> Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential peg-leg 4X4
> and see why it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio, it
> will sit with one tire front and rear hanging over the ditch doing
> nothing, with no power to them, while the tires hanging (resistance free)
> in the air over the ditch get all or the power "torque", You go nowhere.
>

This is true. The reasons are a bit different than your 'Vette analogy, but
it is true.
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

YEAH, What nobody said!

--
Steve Barker

snow blower..... damn that's funny! LMAO!!

"My Name Is Nobody" wrote in message

> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
> open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
> traction to both axels? When you stomp on it you only get one big long
> single black mark, never two. Because the open differential is never
> going to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...
>
> Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential peg-leg 4X4
> and see why it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio, it
> will sit with one tire front and rear hanging over the ditch doing
> nothing, with no power to them, while the tires hanging (resistance free)
> in the air over the ditch get all or the power "torque", You go nowhere.
>
> Get back to us when your measly little brain thaws out, you simple
> bastard...
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

A-X-L-E

not a x e l

Axel is only correct when talking about that fag Axel Rose.

Spdloader




"My Name Is Nobody" wrote in message

>
> wrote in message
>
>>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
>> Seems that the right rear tire just continued to spin in the mud. Front
>> wheels did their work but it seemed like there was no power to the left
>> rear wheel.
>>
>> Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
>> in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
> You have a PEG-Leg 4X4. A classic example of a 4X4 with an opened rear
> (and front too) axel this means that only the tire/axel with the least
> resistance/traction on each end will have power...
>
> You actually have a 2 wheel drive, whichever tire is the least useful on
> each axel will get your power. read my posts about getting stuck over a
> ditch with a peg-leg (so called 4X4) in the Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat
> from Ramp thread.
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

what about axel foley?

--
Steve Barker



"Spdloader" wrote in message

> A-X-L-E
>
> not a x e l
>
> Axel is only correct when talking about that fag Axel Rose.
>
> Spdloader
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

wrote in message

> Thanks much. So, it's not broken but really a rather poor/compromised
> design then?
>

No the result of a cheapskate who bought it in 87.

Whitelightning
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

"Jeff Strickland" wrote in message

>
> "My Name Is Nobody" wrote in message
>
>> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
>> open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
>> traction to both axels?
>
> One more time, and maybe it will sink in this time.

Maybe what will sink in?


>
> The open diff delivers equal torque to both tires on the same axle.
> Period.

Not so, only in some situations (not all) when traction is equal. PERIOD!
The open differential is never going to power both axels when you start
applying torque and spinning...

>
> When this changes, it's because one tire or the other LOSES traction, at
> which point it gets all of the available power. The actuallity is that the
> tire that retains traction still gets some power, this is why the high HP
> car will move forward as the spinning tire spews smoke and rubber.


If that were actually true, then a car with a locking rear end would simply
spin both tires and spew smoke and rubber, never moving forward.
Anyone who has actually driven a high horsepower/torque (big block) car with
a locking rear differential can attest, that is not true, hence the long
double black marks caused by the tires spinning, spewing smoke and rubber,
and still getting some traction, all at the same time.

In this case as in the open differential case, the cars forward movement is
being done by the spinning tire(s)...

The ditch example (that you have acknowledged is true) PROVES my position
and directly contradicts your assertion about the movement coming from the
non-low-powered axel moving the vehicle.


> But, for all practical purposes, there is not enough power delivered to
> the tire with traction to get a stuck vehicle moving, and it is a
> reasonable statement that the traction challenged tire gets all of the
> available power.
>
> We can debate the actual power distribution vis a vis the spinning tire
> and the tire that is on solid ground, but it biols down to the fact that
> for all of the power applied, the vehicle is not going anywhere.
>
>
>
> When you stomp on it you only get one big long
>> single black mark, never two. Because the open differential is never
>> going to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...
>>
>
> While the result is true, the explanation is flawed. Torque and power are
> equal until one tire loses its footing (traction).

Flawed? As I explained above, the open differential is never going to power
both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...

When your torque exceeds your traction the open differentials so called
"equal torque delivery" ends. PERIOD!
On flat paved roads an open differential gets the job done 98% of the time,
but if you are every "traction challenged", you will find that an open
differential's "equal torque delivery" only lasts until you really need it.

>
>
>
>> Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential peg-leg 4X4
>> and see why it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio,
>> it will sit with one tire front and rear hanging over the ditch doing
>> nothing, with no power to them, while the tires hanging (resistance free)
>> in the air over the ditch get all or the power "torque", You go nowhere.
>>
>
> This is true. The reasons are a bit different than your 'Vette analogy,
> but it is true.
>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

"Matt Mead" wrote in message

<Snip>

> Open diff 4x4s are still far superior to 2x4s, even those with
> limited slips or lockers, if for no other reason than you do have two
> ends of the vehicle working instead of just one end trying to push.
>

Often 4x4 is superior, but not always, like I have already said, Straddle an
open ditch at an angle with an open differential 4X4 and see why it is
inferior to a limited slip, it will sit with one tire front and rear hanging
over the ditch doing nothing, with no power to them, while the tires hanging
(resistance free) in the air over the ditch get all or the power and you go
nowhere.

A savy driver off road can get farther with a rear wheel only limited slip
rear end truck than many peg-legged 4X4 drivers...


> Matt
> 99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4 (almost 3wd....)

<Snip>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really? 

Axel Foley. Forgot about him.

Just kills me to see people spell axle, or brakes (b-r-e-a-k-s) or solenoid,
(s-e-l-e-n-o-i-d). That one's even pronounced wrong by most folks.

Spdloader


Spdloader
"Steve Barker" wrote in message

> what about axel foley?
>
> --
> Steve Barker
>
>
>
> "Spdloader" wrote in message
>
>> A-X-L-E
>>
>> not a x e l
>>
>> Axel is only correct when talking about that fag Axel Rose.
>>
>> Spdloader
>>
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: 4WD really?