2000 GSR: Immobilizer?

In article , tegger.DeleteThis@tegger.c0m
says...
> Hell and High Water wrote in
>
>
> > Did the 2000 Acura Integra GSR have an 'immobilizer' chip in the key?
> >
> >
>
>
>
> <proper crossposting added, including rec.autos.makers.honda>
>
> Yes, your keys have chips in them. Why?

Someone stole my 2000 Acura Integra GSR, and I had assumed they broke
in, started it, and drove off.

Just wondering how they did that...



-Bob
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

Hell and High Water wrote in


> In article , tegger DeleteThis @tegger.c0m
> says...
>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>
>>
>> > Did the 2000 Acura Integra GSR have an 'immobilizer' chip in the key?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> <proper crossposting added, including rec.autos.makers.honda>
>>
>> Yes, your keys have chips in them. Why?
>
> Someone stole my 2000 Acura Integra GSR, and I had assumed they broke
> in, started it, and drove off.
>
> Just wondering how they did that...
>
>
>
> -Bob
>
>
>

perhaps they brought along their own rigged immobilizer module?
I've found references to an anti-theft "immobilizer" system,but no mention
of RFID-chipped keys.IIRC,the "immobilizer" is a separate module.

on my 94 GS-R,they push-started the car even though it had an alarm with
starter lockout.Drove it off at 3:40AM with the alarm blaring,too.
"gone in 60 seconds".

You need to have a hidden fuel cutoff switch,and maybe even take the ECU
indoors with you at night.

F-ing G-D thieves,we should be allowed to shoot them on sight.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

In article , jyanik.DeleteThis@abuse.gov
says...

> F-ing G-D thieves,we should be allowed to shoot them on sight.

You should move to Texas. That's exactly what someone did last week.
Still no word on whether the DA's going to press charges, but public
opinion here has so far been mostly in favor of the shooter.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5315727.html

Dave
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

On Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:34:32 -0600, Dave Garrett wrote:


>In article , jyanik DeleteThis @abuse.gov
>says...

>> F-ing G-D thieves,we should be allowed to shoot them on sight.

>You should move to Texas. That's exactly what someone did last week.
>Still no word on whether the DA's going to press charges, but public
>opinion here has so far been mostly in favor of the shooter.

>http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5315727.html

In louisiana, being on your property and not speaking english well is enough
reason to shoot them dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> Hell and High Water wrote in
>
>
>> In article , tegger RemoveThis @tegger.c0m
>> says...
>>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>>
>>>
>>>> Did the 2000 Acura Integra GSR have an 'immobilizer' chip in the key?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <proper crossposting added, including rec.autos.makers.honda>
>>>
>>> Yes, your keys have chips in them. Why?
>> Someone stole my 2000 Acura Integra GSR, and I had assumed they broke
>> in, started it, and drove off.
>>
>> Just wondering how they did that...
>>
>>
>>
>> -Bob
>>
>>
>>
>
> perhaps they brought along their own rigged immobilizer module?

-----------------------------------

More likely they borough their own _Tow Truck_

'Curly'
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

Hell and High Water wrote in


> In article , tegger DeleteThis @tegger.c0m
> says...
>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>
>>
>> > Did the 2000 Acura Integra GSR have an 'immobilizer' chip in the key?
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> <proper crossposting added, including rec.autos.makers.honda>
>>
>> Yes, your keys have chips in them. Why?
>
> Someone stole my 2000 Acura Integra GSR, and I had assumed they broke
> in, started it, and drove off.
>
> Just wondering how they did that...
>
>


It's my understanding that dealerships have "skeleton keys" that will open
any Honda. It may be that there are stolen copies floating around of such
keys.

It's also possible computer hackers have found a way to defeat the
security. It can't be much harder than hacking any other computer-based
security setup.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

Tegger wrote in


> Hell and High Water wrote in
>
>
>> In article , tegger.DeleteThis@tegger.c0m
>> says...
>>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>>
>>>
>>> > Did the 2000 Acura Integra GSR have an 'immobilizer' chip in the
>>> > key?
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <proper crossposting added, including rec.autos.makers.honda>
>>>
>>> Yes, your keys have chips in them. Why?
>>
>> Someone stole my 2000 Acura Integra GSR, and I had assumed they broke
>> in, started it, and drove off.
>>
>> Just wondering how they did that...
>>
>>
>
>
> It's my understanding that dealerships have "skeleton keys" that will
> open any Honda. It may be that there are stolen copies floating around
> of such keys.
>
> It's also possible computer hackers have found a way to defeat the
> security. It can't be much harder than hacking any other
> computer-based security setup.
>
>

it depends on whether the Hondas use an ECU-based
"immobilizer" where an implanted code in the ECU has to match what the RFID
chip in the key generates. Then they would have to change the ECU out to
get the car to start with their RFID key.

ISTR that the later Integras had a separate "immobilizer" module(just a
starter disable) that could be unplugged and replaced with a jumper module
or hacked module.

IOW,it's just like aftermarket alarms,easily defeated.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

Jim Yanik wrote in


> Tegger wrote in
>
>
>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>
>>
>>> In article ,
>>> tegger DeleteThis @tegger.c0m says...
>>>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Did the 2000 Acura Integra GSR have an 'immobilizer' chip in the
>>>> > key?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <proper crossposting added, including rec.autos.makers.honda>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, your keys have chips in them. Why?
>>>
>>> Someone stole my 2000 Acura Integra GSR, and I had assumed they
>>> broke in, started it, and drove off.
>>>
>>> Just wondering how they did that...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> It's my understanding that dealerships have "skeleton keys" that will
>> open any Honda. It may be that there are stolen copies floating
>> around of such keys.
>>
>> It's also possible computer hackers have found a way to defeat the
>> security. It can't be much harder than hacking any other
>> computer-based security setup.
>>
>>
>
> it depends on whether the Hondas use an ECU-based
> "immobilizer" where an implanted code in the ECU has to match what the
> RFID chip in the key generates. Then they would have to change the ECU
> out to get the car to start with their RFID key.
>
> ISTR that the later Integras had a separate "immobilizer" module(just
> a starter disable) that could be unplugged and replaced with a jumper
> module or hacked module.
>
> IOW,it's just like aftermarket alarms,easily defeated.
>



I just did some quick studying of the immobilizer system in my manuals.

The '00-'05 Integra/RSX's immobilizer consist of three components: The
transponder in the key, the control unit/receiver, and the engine's
computer.

The receiver is right next to the ignition lock cylinder. When the
receiver senses the correct signal from the key's transponder, it sends
a coded sequence back to the engine's ECM. If the transmitted code is
correct, the ECM causes the fuel system to be operated in a normal
manner. If the signal is wrong, the fuel system will be disabled.

And how will the ECM disable the fuel system? By refusing to ground the
Main Relay (probably by leaving terminal 8 open).

Are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking?

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

In article , tegger RemoveThis @tegger.c0m
says...
>
> I just did some quick studying of the immobilizer system in my manuals.
>
> The '00-'05 Integra/RSX's immobilizer consist of three components: The
> transponder in the key, the control unit/receiver, and the engine's
> computer.
>
> The receiver is right next to the ignition lock cylinder. When the
> receiver senses the correct signal from the key's transponder, it sends
> a coded sequence back to the engine's ECM. If the transmitted code is
> correct, the ECM causes the fuel system to be operated in a normal
> manner. If the signal is wrong, the fuel system will be disabled.
>
> And how will the ECM disable the fuel system? By refusing to ground the
> Main Relay (probably by leaving terminal 8 open).
>
> Are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking?

No...

Not following you...


??

-Bob
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

Tegger wrote in


> Jim Yanik wrote in
>
>
>> Tegger wrote in
>>
>>
>>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>>
>>>
>>>> In article ,
>>>> tegger RemoveThis @tegger.c0m says...
>>>>> Hell and High Water wrote in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Did the 2000 Acura Integra GSR have an 'immobilizer' chip in the
>>>>> > key?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <proper crossposting added, including rec.autos.makers.honda>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, your keys have chips in them. Why?
>>>>
>>>> Someone stole my 2000 Acura Integra GSR, and I had assumed they
>>>> broke in, started it, and drove off.
>>>>
>>>> Just wondering how they did that...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's my understanding that dealerships have "skeleton keys" that will
>>> open any Honda. It may be that there are stolen copies floating
>>> around of such keys.
>>>
>>> It's also possible computer hackers have found a way to defeat the
>>> security. It can't be much harder than hacking any other
>>> computer-based security setup.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> it depends on whether the Hondas use an ECU-based
>> "immobilizer" where an implanted code in the ECU has to match what the
>> RFID chip in the key generates. Then they would have to change the ECU
>> out to get the car to start with their RFID key.
>>
>> ISTR that the later Integras had a separate "immobilizer" module(just
>> a starter disable) that could be unplugged and replaced with a jumper
>> module or hacked module.
>>
>> IOW,it's just like aftermarket alarms,easily defeated.
>>
>
>
>
> I just did some quick studying of the immobilizer system in my manuals.
>
> The '00-'05 Integra/RSX's immobilizer consist of three components: The
> transponder in the key, the control unit/receiver, and the engine's
> computer.
>
> The receiver is right next to the ignition lock cylinder. When the
> receiver senses the correct signal from the key's transponder, it sends
> a coded sequence back to the engine's ECM. If the transmitted code is
> correct, the ECM causes the fuel system to be operated in a normal
> manner. If the signal is wrong, the fuel system will be disabled.
>
> And how will the ECM disable the fuel system? By refusing to ground the
> Main Relay (probably by leaving terminal 8 open).

Does it SAY that?
I thought it might inhibit injector operation,shutting them off totally.
(at least in the RSX,a newer system.)
That's what happens in my Sentra SE-R SpecV.
That also is "disabling the fuel system".
>
> Are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking?
>

Just not grounding the main relay leaves it vulnerable to jumpering,very
simple.
An "immobilizer" HAS to disable the ECU to be effective.

If that's the case,best to install a hidden fuel pump disable switch.
I wish I had done that for my 94 GS-R,I had the parts all ready for
installation,just didn't get to it in time. It cost me big time.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

Jim Yanik wrote in


> Tegger wrote in
>
>

>>
>> And how will the ECM disable the fuel system? By refusing to ground
>> the Main Relay (probably by leaving terminal 8 open).
>
> Does it SAY that?



No it does not. It *does* say that the ECM will refuse to ground the Main
Relay. I'm guessing on the Terminal 8 thing. Terminal 8 is the activation
line for pre-'02 Main Relays.

Around '02, Honda split the Main Relay into two separate relays, one for
fuel, for ignition. I haven't scrutinized the diagrams to see exactly what
goes where. Yet.



> I thought it might inhibit injector operation,shutting them off
> totally. (at least in the RSX,a newer system.)
> That's what happens in my Sentra SE-R SpecV.
> That also is "disabling the fuel system".
>>
>> Are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking?
>>
>
> Just not grounding the main relay leaves it vulnerable to
> jumpering,very simple.
> An "immobilizer" HAS to disable the ECU to be effective.



I wonder how honest my (factory) manual is. It claims fuel disable, and
nothing more.



>
> If that's the case,best to install a hidden fuel pump disable switch.
> I wish I had done that for my 94 GS-R,I had the parts all ready for
> installation,just didn't get to it in time. It cost me big time.
>


That's too bad. The late John Ings had just that advice up on the FAQ
before I took it over.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/stolen.html

There're only two lines to the fuel pump, and one's a ground. Splice into
the live wire and it would be a rare crook indeed who could figure that one
out. No power, no fuel.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 04:03:31 +0000 (UTC), Tegger wrote:


>Jim Yanik wrote in
>

>> Tegger wrote in
>>
>>

>>>
>>> And how will the ECM disable the fuel system? By refusing to ground
>>> the Main Relay (probably by leaving terminal 8 open).
>>
>> Does it SAY that?



>No it does not. It *does* say that the ECM will refuse to ground the Main
>Relay. I'm guessing on the Terminal 8 thing. Terminal 8 is the activation
>line for pre-'02 Main Relays.

>Around '02, Honda split the Main Relay into two separate relays, one for
>fuel, for ignition. I haven't scrutinized the diagrams to see exactly what
>goes where. Yet.



>> I thought it might inhibit injector operation,shutting them off
>> totally. (at least in the RSX,a newer system.)
>> That's what happens in my Sentra SE-R SpecV.
>> That also is "disabling the fuel system".
>>>
>>> Are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking?
>>>
>>
>> Just not grounding the main relay leaves it vulnerable to
>> jumpering,very simple.
>> An "immobilizer" HAS to disable the ECU to be effective.



>I wonder how honest my (factory) manual is. It claims fuel disable, and
>nothing more.



>>
>> If that's the case,best to install a hidden fuel pump disable switch.
>> I wish I had done that for my 94 GS-R,I had the parts all ready for
>> installation,just didn't get to it in time. It cost me big time.
>>


>That's too bad. The late John Ings had just that advice up on the FAQ
>before I took it over.
>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/stolen.html

>There're only two lines to the fuel pump, and one's a ground. Splice into
>the live wire and it would be a rare crook indeed who could figure that one
>out. No power, no fuel.

Even if the fuel pump runs, the ECM can simply fail to signal the injectors.
Ditto for the ignition. You can't have a running engine without
the ECM participating.
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer? 

AZ Nomad wrote in



>
> Even if the fuel pump runs, the ECM can simply fail to signal the
> injectors. Ditto for the ignition. You can't have a running engine
> without the ECM participating.
>


You're right of course. That's why I wondered earlier how honest the shop
manual was. It would be trivially easy for Honda to tell the ECM to disable
spark and injectors as well as the fuel pump.

But none of this explains how the OP's car was stolen in the first place,
which is what this whole thread was about.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
 >> Stay informed about: 2000 GSR: Immobilizer?