1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:10:02 -0700, Gene Poon wrote:
 >
 >Those bushings are the weak point in the LH car steering system. They
 >take a lot of stress, and when they are worn, cause all manner of weird
 >creaking, and looseness in the steering. I would not necessarily find
 >it strange that the new rack didn't come with the bushings, because they
 >come with the TIE RODS, at least when I had to buy them from Chrysler.
 >
 >I'd have replaced them just out of principle. The original one-piece
 >bushings are quite difficult to press into the tie rods, but there is a
 >split version which is easy to install. I would also have replaced the
 >rubber mounts for the rack, onto the body, if I were replacing a rack.
 >Those get worn and loose, too.

Thanks for the response. They told me they replaced the rack (and
rack bushings) and the outer tie rods. The mechanic claims on this
car that there really isn't an inner tie rod. (That sounds strange.)
Just seems strange to me to have major work done on the steering and
not replace the rubber pieces since they tend to wear down the
fastest.
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

Joe D. wrote:

 > Thanks for the response. They told me they replaced the rack (and
 > rack bushings) and the outer tie rods. The mechanic claims on this
 > car that there really isn't an inner tie rod. (That sounds strange.)


There IS an "inner tie rod" but it's the l-o-n-g rod from the rack to
the adjustment sleeves near the outer end.

Diagram at:

<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html" target="_blank">http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html</a>

....and instructions for replacing the bushings.
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

I *couldn't* believe my eyes when I saw Joe D. wrote:


  >>
  >>Those bushings are the weak point in the LH car steering system. They
  >>take a lot of stress, and when they are worn, cause all manner of weird
  >>creaking, and looseness in the steering. I would not necessarily find
  >>it strange that the new rack didn't come with the bushings, because they
  >>come with the TIE RODS, at least when I had to buy them from Chrysler.
  >>
  >>I'd have replaced them just out of principle. The original one-piece
  >>bushings are quite difficult to press into the tie rods, but there is a
  >>split version which is easy to install. I would also have replaced the
  >>rubber mounts for the rack, onto the body, if I were replacing a rack.
  >>Those get worn and loose, too.
 >
 > Thanks for the response. They told me they replaced the rack (and
 > rack bushings) and the outer tie rods. The mechanic claims on this
 > car that there really isn't an inner tie rod. (That sounds strange.)
 > Just seems strange to me to have major work done on the steering and
 > not replace the rubber pieces since they tend to wear down the
 > fastest.

BTW, how much did this cost?

The problem I'm having is that there is about 1.5" play in the passenger's
side wheel. I looked as best as I could, but the rack is mounted under the
intake plenum on the firewall, and can't be seen well. There is an inner
tie rod end and a bushing. I'm hoping the bushing takes care of it. ( the
bushing costs $7.00, the rack $165!)

I'm thinking he told you there's no inner tie rod end because of the
profit margin between a $7 bushing and a $165 rack!
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

HachiRoku wrote:

 > The problem I'm having is that there is about 1.5" play in the passenger's
 > side wheel. I looked as best as I could, but the rack is mounted under the
 > intake plenum on the firewall, and can't be seen well. There is an inner
 > tie rod end and a bushing. I'm hoping the bushing takes care of it. ( the
 > bushing costs $7.00, the rack $165!)
 >
 > I'm thinking he told you there's no inner tie rod end because of the
 > profit margin between a $7 bushing and a $165 rack!

==================================

There IS an "inner tie rod" but it runs all the way from the rack at the
center to the adjustment sleeve near the outer end.

Diagram...and DIY instructions on how to change the bushings, at:

<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html" target="_blank">http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html</a>

-GP
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

I *couldn't* believe my eyes when I saw Gene Poon wrote:

 > HachiRoku wrote:
 >
  >> The problem I'm having is that there is about 1.5" play in the passenger's
  >> side wheel. I looked as best as I could, but the rack is mounted under the
  >> intake plenum on the firewall, and can't be seen well. There is an inner
  >> tie rod end and a bushing. I'm hoping the bushing takes care of it. ( the
  >> bushing costs $7.00, the rack $165!)
  >>
  >> I'm thinking he told you there's no inner tie rod end because of the
  >> profit margin between a $7 bushing and a $165 rack!
 >
 > ==================================
 >
 > There IS an "inner tie rod" but it runs all the way from the rack at the
 > center to the adjustment sleeve near the outer end.
 >
 > Diagram...and DIY instructions on how to change the bushings, at:
 >
<font color=purple> > <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html</font</a>>
 >
 > -GP

Yup, that's exactly it!

I acquired the car last Sunday. Monday (before I saw this article!) I
acked up the passenger's side and moved the wheel. About 2" play. I
opened the hood and locaterd the rack, and watched as I moved the wheel.
You can see the slop in the tinner tie rod end. Since I can't see it I
can't be sure, but I believe even the metal from the bushing is gone!

The driver's side is nice and tight, but now I am debating, since we're
going to be in there anyway, of doing the driver's side, too. The bushing
was $7 (it was *not* the split type...this could be interesting!)

My God, to think the person gave me this car over a $7 part!

Now, solve this problem!!!


 > After saying how much I like my Voyager, the thing goes and screws up on
 > the way home tonight!
 >
 > Pretty generic question, probably pertains to all FWD cars:
 >
 > Went over a bump, and after hitting it, noticed a noise and a 'sensation'
 > that wasn't there before. Very hard to describe. Not really a wub wub wub,
 > but sort of.
 >
 > Feels like something is binding, but that's not really it either. Like
 > something is meeting some resistance. It is rythmic, and more pronounced
 > about 45MPH. Does not increase above this speed, but sometimes has a
 > tendancy to not be rythmic but more steady at 50.
 >
 > There is an accompanying 'thrumming' in the floor at the same time. But
 > it's not really a thrumming.
 >
 > There is not bumping, grinding, rythmic feel, or anything throught the
 > steering wheel.
 >
 > Last time this happened was on my Corolla, and a wheel fell off. All the
 > lugs are tight.
 >
 > Any ideas, guys? (or Gals, as the case may be...)
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:56:19 -0700, Gene Poon wrote:

 >Joe D. wrote:
 >
  >> Thanks for the response. They told me they replaced the rack (and
  >> rack bushings) and the outer tie rods. The mechanic claims on this
  >> car that there really isn't an inner tie rod. (That sounds strange.)
 >
 >
 >There IS an "inner tie rod" but it's the l-o-n-g rod from the rack to
 >the adjustment sleeves near the outer end.
 >
 >Diagram at:
 >
 >http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html
 >
 >...and instructions for replacing the bushings.
 >


Thanks for the great article and explanation. In your opinion, do you
feel the inner tie rod bushings should have been included in a "rack
and pinion replacement"? What does the mechanic mean when he says he
replaced the outer tie rods?

What's really frustrating is that I had paid the Dodge dealer back in
December to look at the car and diagnose the problem. (I didn't let
them fix it for $1,500, though!) I gave the local mechanic the
dealer's assessment, which specifically stated the rack bushings and
inner tie rod bushings were worn, which required replacement of the
entire rack on this model. Why would the mechanic NOT replace the
inner tie rod bushings? He said they're weren't worn that much. I
just hate having to fight people on stuff like this. I don't have a
great deal of spare time to mess with such a situation.

Joe
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:21:32 GMT, HachiRoku wrote:

 >
 >BTW, how much did this cost?
 >
 >The problem I'm having is that there is about 1.5" play in the passenger's
 >side wheel. I looked as best as I could, but the rack is mounted under the
 >intake plenum on the firewall, and can't be seen well. There is an inner
 >tie rod end and a bushing. I'm hoping the bushing takes care of it. ( the
 >bushing costs $7.00, the rack $165!)
 >
 >I'm thinking he told you there's no inner tie rod end because of the
 >profit margin between a $7 bushing and a $165 rack!

The local mechanic charged a total of about $880 for parts and labor
to replace the rack and pinion. The rebuilt rack and pinion was $422.
I have been told there are two different racks for the Intrepid. If
yours require the proportional steering, which mine does, the rack
does cost more. I did confirm that aspect with a couple of parts
houses.

Joe
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

I *couldn't* believe my eyes when I saw Joe D. wrote:


 >
  >>Joe D. wrote:
  >>
   >>> Thanks for the response. They told me they replaced the rack (and
   >>> rack bushings) and the outer tie rods. The mechanic claims on this
   >>> car that there really isn't an inner tie rod. (That sounds strange.)
  >>
  >>
  >>There IS an "inner tie rod" but it's the l-o-n-g rod from the rack to
  >>the adjustment sleeves near the outer end.
  >>
  >>Diagram at:
  >>
  >>http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html
  >>
  >>...and instructions for replacing the bushings.
  >>
 >
 >
 > Thanks for the great article and explanation. In your opinion, do you
 > feel the inner tie rod bushings should have been included in a "rack
 > and pinion replacement"? What does the mechanic mean when he says he
 > replaced the outer tie rods?
 >
 > What's really frustrating is that I had paid the Dodge dealer back in
 > December to look at the car and diagnose the problem. (I didn't let
 > them fix it for $1,500, though!) I gave the local mechanic the
 > dealer's assessment, which specifically stated the rack bushings and
 > inner tie rod bushings were worn, which required replacement of the
 > entire rack on this model. Why would the mechanic NOT replace the
 > inner tie rod bushings? He said they're weren't worn that much. I
 > just hate having to fight people on stuff like this. I don't have a
 > great deal of spare time to mess with such a situation.
 >
 > Joe


Probably because it looks like a PITA!

Although I can't understand why someone would replace a Rack and not check
the bushings. I'm not familiar enough with Chrysler prods to know, though.

On the other rack and pinions I have done, the inner tie rod ends were
part of the assembly. (Toyota, entirely different system)
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

I *couldn't* believe my eyes when I saw Joe D. wrote:


 >
  >>
  >>BTW, how much did this cost?
  >>
  >>The problem I'm having is that there is about 1.5" play in the passenger's
  >>side wheel. I looked as best as I could, but the rack is mounted under the
  >>intake plenum on the firewall, and can't be seen well. There is an inner
  >>tie rod end and a bushing. I'm hoping the bushing takes care of it. ( the
  >>bushing costs $7.00, the rack $165!)
  >>
  >>I'm thinking he told you there's no inner tie rod end because of the
  >>profit margin between a $7 bushing and a $165 rack!
 >
 > The local mechanic charged a total of about $880 for parts and labor
 > to replace the rack and pinion. The rebuilt rack and pinion was $422.
 > I have been told there are two different racks for the Intrepid. If
 > yours require the proportional steering, which mine does, the rack
 > does cost more. I did confirm that aspect with a couple of parts
 > houses.
 >
 > Joe

Yeah. I just acquired the thing. I am a used car dealer, and I have a
customer who delivers papers for a living (how about $120,000/year to
deliver papers!!!!) He buys a lot of the beaters I get. He bought the LHS
for a few hundred and then after 8 months decided he didn't want it, so he
*gave* it to me! The first day I had it I checked it out (after driving 12
miles to get it to my shop, pass side wheel wob-b-b-b-b-ling all the way.
What I could see in the dark area under the cowl was just what was
described. The rest of the rack seems ok, driver's side has *no* play at
all.

On this car, the ITR end attaches to the rack, and then to the OTR end, to
the wheel. I couldn't see, but it doesn't look like there's *any* bushing
there at all, not even the metal piece.

And the speed proportional is about $30 more. I don't know if it has it,
but according to the page Gene posted, the bushing looks like the culprit!

BTW, I used to work at a CarQuest. I get a discount because we set up an
account for the dealership, and we get a good discount. My price for the
rack? $165 w/o speed prop., $189 with! (rebuilt rack)
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

HachiRoku wrote:

  > I *couldn't* believe my eyes when I saw Gene Poon wrote:
  >
  >
   >>HachiRoku wrote:
   >>
   >>
    >>>The problem I'm having is that there is about 1.5" play in the
passenger's
    >>>side wheel. I looked as best as I could, but the rack is mounted
under the
    >>>intake plenum on the firewall, and can't be seen well. There is an inner
    >>>tie rod end and a bushing. I'm hoping the bushing takes care of it.
( the
    >>>bushing costs $7.00, the rack $165!)
    >>>
    >>>I'm thinking he told you there's no inner tie rod end because of the
    >>>profit margin between a $7 bushing and a $165 rack!
   >>
   >>==================================
   >>
   >>There IS an "inner tie rod" but it runs all the way from the rack at the
   >>center to the adjustment sleeve near the outer end.
   >>
   >>Diagram...and DIY instructions on how to change the bushings, at:
   >>
   >>http://www.allpar.com/fix/intrepid-steering.html
   >>
   >>-GP
  >
  >
  > Yup, that's exactly it!
  >
  > I acquired the car last Sunday. Monday (before I saw this article!) I
  > acked up the passenger's side and moved the wheel. About 2" play. I
  > opened the hood and locaterd the rack, and watched as I moved the wheel.
  > You can see the slop in the tinner tie rod end. Since I can't see it I
  > can't be sure, but I believe even the metal from the bushing is gone!
  >
  > The driver's side is nice and tight, but now I am debating, since we're
  > going to be in there anyway, of doing the driver's side, too. The bushing
  > was $7 (it was *not* the split type...this could be interesting!)

===================================

You may be going to NAPA or wherever to get the split polyurethane
bushing. The one-piece bushing is VERY hard to get in and you may be
going to the dealer for an inner tie rod.

Don't ask how I know. But even if he gave you the car for a bad inner
tie rod...no matter what it costs, what, fifty bucks or so? ...you
still did very well!

-GP
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

Joe D. wrote:

 > Thanks for the great article and explanation. In your opinion, do you
 > feel the inner tie rod bushings should have been included in a "rack
 > and pinion replacement"? What does the mechanic mean when he says he
 > replaced the outer tie rods?
=========================

He probably did exactly that; the ball joints in the outer tie rod ends
can get worn and loose. But he did the EASY part of the job. Maybe HE
didn't think he should do the inners, but someone with experience in the
LH cars would have known.

=================================
 >
 > What's really frustrating is that I had paid the Dodge dealer back in
 > December to look at the car and diagnose the problem. (I didn't let
 > them fix it for $1,500, though!) I gave the local mechanic the
 > dealer's assessment, which specifically stated the rack bushings and
 > inner tie rod bushings were worn, which required replacement of the
 > entire rack on this model. Why would the mechanic NOT replace the
 > inner tie rod bushings? He said they're weren't worn that much. I
 > just hate having to fight people on stuff like this. I don't have a
 > great deal of spare time to mess with such a situation.
==================================

Replacement of the inner tie rod bushings does NOT require replacement
of the rack. The mechanic may not have realized how critical those
bushings are, due to inexperience with the LH cars, because they can
LOOK tight but be soft in normal operation, and make creaky noises when
you turn the steering wheel. Don't be TOO picky about those creaky
noises, though; my Intrepid made creaky noises with BRAND NEW bushings
in cold weather when moisture condensed on the linkage. I suppose the
two piece polyurethane bushings would behave differently than the
factory rubber ones.

-GP
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:31:29 -0700, Gene Poon wrote:

 >Joe D. wrote:
 >
  >> Thanks for the great article and explanation. In your opinion, do you
  >> feel the inner tie rod bushings should have been included in a "rack
  >> and pinion replacement"? What does the mechanic mean when he says he
  >> replaced the outer tie rods?
 >=========================
 >
 >He probably did exactly that; the ball joints in the outer tie rod ends
 >can get worn and loose. But he did the EASY part of the job. Maybe HE
 >didn't think he should do the inners, but someone with experience in the
 >LH cars would have known.

I got tired of dealing with it and tried a different tactic. I took
it to another shop and had them grade the work. I told them before
they did that I was not going to be paying them to do any repair work
and only wanted their assessment of whether the work was done
properly. (They still did it for free, while others wanted around
$40.) They put if up on the rack, lifting it slightly, then showed me
where the rack was moving around and the tie rod was loosely slipping
around on the pin as the steerring wheel was turned. I was instantly
convinced it was a poor repair job. I also called three other repair
shops and they all said they always replace the inner tie rod bushings
if doing a whole rack and pinion job, becuase of the rubber and the
known Intrepid issues.

Yesterday, I took it back to the original repair shop and showed them
the written appraisal of the work. They acknowledged the mechanic
should have replaced the inner tie rod bushings after I had them watch
the rods play around on the pins, Although the appraising shop said
they should do the whole rack job again, I agreed to let them put the
bushings in. While they were at it. they determined the popping noise
was because of a loose submount bolt near one of the engine mounts.
After they tightened that up, no more popping! Looks like the inner
tie rod bushings do make the steering even firmer now and I just need
to get it realigned. Hopefully all I have left to do in the next few
weeks is replace the struts and this car should be in great shape.

 >=================================
  >>
  >> What's really frustrating is that I had paid the Dodge dealer back in
  >> December to look at the car and diagnose the problem. (I didn't let
  >> them fix it for $1,500, though!) I gave the local mechanic the
  >> dealer's assessment, which specifically stated the rack bushings and
  >> inner tie rod bushings were worn, which required replacement of the
  >> entire rack on this model. Why would the mechanic NOT replace the
  >> inner tie rod bushings? He said they're weren't worn that much. I
  >> just hate having to fight people on stuff like this. I don't have a
  >> great deal of spare time to mess with such a situation.
 >==================================
 >
 >Replacement of the inner tie rod bushings does NOT require replacement
 >of the rack. The mechanic may not have realized how critical those
 >bushings are, due to inexperience with the LH cars, because they can
 >LOOK tight but be soft in normal operation, and make creaky noises when
 >you turn the steering wheel. Don't be TOO picky about those creaky
 >noises, though; my Intrepid made creaky noises with BRAND NEW bushings
 >in cold weather when moisture condensed on the linkage. I suppose the
 >two piece polyurethane bushings would behave differently than the
 >factory rubber ones.

I assume the dealer said the entire rack was necessary because they
determined the rack bushings and the inner tie rod bushings were worn.
The auto parts store seemed to concur, so I accepted that as accurate.
I haven't had any creaking noises before or after. The only noise was
the single or dual popping sound which was solved as described above
with the submount bolt tightening. I suppose it was a separate
problem altogher which did not cost me anything at all.

Thanks for all the input. Looks like I'm back on the right path after
some research and pushiness.

Joe
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion 

Sure Glad I found this before starting repair, even though problem found
and couldn't align car this site is great saved me from pulling intake as
was previously suggested to repair bushings. Great article on ultimate
steering fix.
 >> Stay informed about: 1997 Intrepid Rack and Pinion