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06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what

 
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Ray O

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Since: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 4627



(Msg. 31) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:42 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>autos>toyota (more info?)

<mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org> wrote in message
news:t6gcq3p37sccnnpu8s3eubuqvhuggq3e3v@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:42:02 -0600, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>
>>
>><mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org> wrote in message
>>news:af7cq3l8m9qiidliscp4vha7dapuogm27i@4ax.com...
>><snsipped>
>>> PS.
>>> Does it take special tools/skills to check for parasitic current
>>> drain? I do have a clamp-on voltmeter that will measure current. Not
>>> sure about sensitivity.
>>> I know the load test takes a special gadget.
>>
>>You will need an ammeter with the capacity to read at least 1 amp to
>>measure
>>parasitic current drain. Make sure all lights and accessories are off,
>>hook
>>up the ammeter in series between the positive battery clamp and positive
>>battery post and see how many milliamps are being drawn. You should see
>>current draw drop after it has been sitting for around 5 minutes.
>>
>>You can use your bolt meter to measure battery voltage. When fully
>>charged,
>>a good battery will read something like 13.7 volts.
>
> Two different digital volt meters same brand (el cheepo HF brand) read
> 12.92 v and 12.90 v
> A scale reading volt meter reads about 14 volts.

For home automotive use, the cheapo brand is good enough. I paid around $20
for a cheapo Radio Shack digital meter around 30 years ago and the stupid
thing keeps plugging along. I would like a fancy Fluke meter, but it is a
little hard to justify since the Radio Shack meter has met my needs all this
time.

The analog meter can get out of calibration more easily than a digital one
because it has moving parts. My guess is that the digital ones are correct.

>
> My amp meter works great on AC circuits but has no DCA setting in
> spite of the instructions (again).
>
> Busted my old specific gravity tester - to get a new one - they used
> to be cheap.
>
> Not sure if anything can be concluded from the above?

12.9 volts is a tad low for a fully charged battery. The battery is
probably good enough to work if the car is started every day, but if it sits
for a few days, the voltage drops low enough to cause problems.

I think it is worth taking to the dealer for a check.

>
> I would love to have a 'charge - discharge' gage on my instrument
> panel. My GM did not even have a temp gage - only a flag that would
> pop out of the hood if the engine was blown.

That wasn't a flag - that was a pushrod poking up through the hood Wink

>
> What are the chance that the alternator is not charging?

The chance that the alternator is not charging is low, becuase you would
have a charge warning light if the alternator is not charging. Just for
grins, start the engine and measure voltage across the battery terminals.
At around 1,500 ~ 2,000 RPM, you should get over 14 volts. If you are not,
then the alternator is bad. If you are getting over 14 volts, the
alternator is charging.

> Would there ever be an indication - such as slow starting - that the
> battery is low?

You will get slow cranking if the battery is low.
>
> The green eye on the battery - is that just a constant color float
> rather that some sort of electrical light?

The green eye in the battery is just a specific gravity meter, and the top
ball that floats is green. It is not an electrical device so it will not be
bright or illuminated.

--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

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Ray O

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Since: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 4627



(Msg. 32) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

<mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org> wrote in message
news:r7jcq31f8o85e87uqc8ji3e28j2fivrhl2@4ax.com...
<snipped>
>>The chance that the alternator is not charging is low, becuase you would
>>have a charge warning light if the alternator is not charging. Just for
>>grins, start the engine and measure voltage across the battery terminals.
>>At around 1,500 ~ 2,000 RPM, you should get over 14 volts. If you are
>>not,
>>then the alternator is bad. If you are getting over 14 volts, the
>>alternator is charging.
>
> Just measured 14.42v at about 1600rpm.

The alternator is probably good.

>>> Would there ever be an indication - such as slow starting - that the
>>> battery is low?
>>
>>You will get slow cranking if the battery is low.
>
> Really - not just that clicking sound?????? That you are sjUUUed.

The clicking sound is when the battery is even lower than the slow cranking
and doesn't have enough power to turn the engine over or engage the starter.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

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mike

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Since: May 25, 2007
Posts: 30



(Msg. 33) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ray O

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Since: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 4627



(Msg. 34) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org> wrote in message
news:6h3cq3p1aoghj02ngaknlmpgl2huv3gh77@4ax.com...
<snipped>
>>It is possible that the battery has a bad cell; it is possible that the
>>connection between the charger and battery was marginal; the charger may
>>not
>>be working properly; or there is a draw in the vehicle somewhere that
>>slowed
>>down the rate of charge.
>>
>>Are there any aftermarket accessories installed in the vehicle like Ipod
>>adapters, remote starters, etc.?
>
> Nothing has been changed, plugged in or added.

That is good... Problems caused by aftermarket accessories are not covered
by the new vehicle warranty.

>>> My next move should probably be to just let it sit and see if it has a
>>> charge (will start) this afternoon.
>>>
>>> Given all the above can the dealer do anything?
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the thoughtful replies so far.
>>>
>>> m
>>
>>If the car is holding a charge, then everything is probably OK. Yes, the
>>dealer can measure parasitic current draw and load test the battery.
>
> What - if any - be the likely charge for this be?

The dealer will probably charge a diagnostic fee of 1 hour times their labor
rate. If a problem is found that is covered by warranty like a bad battery,
then the charge would be waived.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
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Scott in Florida

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Since: Sep 20, 2007
Posts: 189



(Msg. 35) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 19:07:16 GMT, mike RemoveThis @nosam.org wrote:

>What - if any - be the likely charge for this be?
>
>(In no time one would buy a new battery just to see if that was the
>problem)
>I will never forget how (some idiot GM mechanic) charged me $30 to
>'fully charge' the battery 'because the charge was low'. List price
>for a new one was $38 at the time. There was a reason for the less
>than fully charged battery that was unrelated to why that car was in
>the shop for specific work. I paid the 'tuition'!
>
>m

If it were mine.....and it isn't.

What I would do is buy a new battery and chalk it up to 'experience.

New cars are almost totally dependent on a good battery.

Car batteries are hurt by a full discharge.

Even though I don't have to, I buy a new battery every three years.

--
Scott in Florida
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Hachiroku

External


Since: Aug 05, 2006
Posts: 76



(Msg. 36) Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 06:32:14 +0000, sharx35 wrote:

>
> "Mike hunt" <mikehunt22.DeleteThis@lycos.com> wrote in message
> news:psSdnTCcy4a6dDnanZ2dnUVZ_hmtnZ2d@ptd.net...
>> See the battery manufacture, WBMA. Unless things changed since I'm out of
>> the business, most new car batteries have a prorated warranty, of at least
>> three yeara, by the manufacture
>>
>>
>>
>> To my knowledge Ford is the only manufacture to warrants batteries and
>> tires for the life of the basic warranty. Others only warrant them at
>> 100% for 12/12 WOF.
>
> FORD=Fix Or Repair Daily

Found On Road Dead
-OR-
Fu@#ing Over-Rated Dud



>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <mike.DeleteThis@nosam.org> wrote in message
>>
>> news:ntn9q391obq0pv63ochujb6t755rv1030o@4ax.com...
>>> My 'new' 06 Sienna CE had been sitting unused for about 5 days - prior
>>> to that it was driven about 4 miles - after sitting idle for 5 days
>>> (In sunny LA, CA). This morning the battery was totally dead - no
>>> lights anywhere. Putting a 12 volt tester on the battery barely
>>> produced a glow. Put a charger on and lights started working. The
>>> rear door will not open. Guess there is no over-ride?
>>>
>>> The vehicle was purchased 5-2006. The battery date is 4-29-06.
>>>
>>> I intend to charge it for about 4 hours at 6 amp and see what works.
>>>
>>> Questions:
>>> Have or will the electronics be goofed up - so far?
>>> What if anything will happen when/ if I install a new battery.
>>>
>>> Any warranty on any of this? The vehicle is less than two years old.
>>>
>>> Is this perhaps a case of not driving it enough?
>>> In that case will a charge not cure the ills? Any electronic problems
>>> created so far?
>>>
>>> Just getting out the owner's manual.
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> m
>>
>>
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mike

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Since: May 25, 2007
Posts: 30



(Msg. 37) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Ray O

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Since: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 4627



(Msg. 38) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org> wrote in message
news:50ocq39dnr9grcqaqpe6ujfo848ta6m2av@4ax.com...
<snipped>

>
> This leaves only the load test, the sp gravity test and the parasitic
> current loss.
> You said the following:
>
> "You will need an ammeter with the capacity to read at least 1 amp to
> measure
> parasitic current drain. Make sure all lights and accessories are
> off, hook
> up the ammeter in series between the positive battery clamp and
> positive
> battery post and see how many milliamps are being drawn. You should
> see
> current draw drop after it has been sitting for around 5 minutes."
>
> I did not understand why the drop after 5 min????
> The car is just sitting there doing nothing. Is this more than
> obtaining a stable reading?

There is a technical service bulletin regarding battery maintenance and
testing, and I recall reading a synopsis somewhere that mentioned the wait
(I think about 5 minutes) for the amperage to drop off. I don't recall the
reason, but the most likely reason is a retained power or memory feature or
security system arming.

> Re the green eye on the battery - at approximately what % of capacity
> does it change? Or is there no useful significance to that?7

I don't know the answer to this question. The indicator is only a general
indicator of the state of charge - a volt meter provides more precise
information.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
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Daniel Who Wants to Know

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Since: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 64



(Msg. 39) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:48 am
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

<mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org> wrote in message
news:miq9q3p0t2pkjm2lqutoh904o3skgvfgbm@4ax.com...
>
> In the manual it says to disconnect the ground (-) connection before
> recharging with the battery in the car. WHY? Is this a big thing
> because I did no disconnecting - just clamped on and started charging.
>
>
>
>

Lots of battery chargers are just a big honking transformer with some diodes
and an ammeter attached so they put out pulsating DC instead of pure DC.
The peaks of the pulses are usually above the usual safe limit of 16 volts
and since a lead-acid battery that has been overdischarged below 10 volts
has mostly pure water as electrolyte (the sulfur goes into the plates during
discharge) it is almost an open circuit and doesn't filter the pulses out
into pure DC which means you now potentially have pulsating DC with peaks
over 16V going to all of the ECUs that draw memory power.

The other reason is that the ECUs like to start up with a sudden solid
stable voltage instead of the slowly rising voltage you would get while
charging the battery with it connected.
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mike

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Since: May 25, 2007
Posts: 30



(Msg. 40) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:27 am
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Mike hunt

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Since: Nov 21, 2007
Posts: 264



(Msg. 41) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:46 am
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Hysterias? Wink





"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:6IidnZl2ANqgCDvanZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> <mike.RemoveThis@nosam.org> wrote in message
> news:50ocq39dnr9grcqaqpe6ujfo848ta6m2av@4ax.com...
> <snipped>
>
>>
>> This leaves only the load test, the sp gravity test and the parasitic
>> current loss.
>> You said the following:
>>
>> "You will need an ammeter with the capacity to read at least 1 amp to
>> measure
>> parasitic current drain. Make sure all lights and accessories are
>> off, hook
>> up the ammeter in series between the positive battery clamp and
>> positive
>> battery post and see how many milliamps are being drawn. You should
>> see
>> current draw drop after it has been sitting for around 5 minutes."
>>
>> I did not understand why the drop after 5 min????
>> The car is just sitting there doing nothing. Is this more than
>> obtaining a stable reading?
>
> There is a technical service bulletin regarding battery maintenance and
> testing, and I recall reading a synopsis somewhere that mentioned the wait
> (I think about 5 minutes) for the amperage to drop off. I don't recall
> the reason, but the most likely reason is a retained power or memory
> feature or security system arming.
>
>> Re the green eye on the battery - at approximately what % of capacity
>> does it change? Or is there no useful significance to that?7
>
> I don't know the answer to this question. The indicator is only a general
> indicator of the state of charge - a volt meter provides more precise
> information.
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>
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sylvan butler

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Since: Feb 04, 2008
Posts: 1



(Msg. 42) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:51 am
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:30:43 -0600, Ray O <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
><mike RemoveThis @nosam.org> wrote in message
> news:50ocq39dnr9grcqaqpe6ujfo848ta6m2av@4ax.com...
>> Re the green eye on the battery - at approximately what % of capacity
>> does it change? Or is there no useful significance to that?7
>
> I don't know the answer to this question. The indicator is only a general
> indicator of the state of charge - a volt meter provides more precise
> information.

The green eye is just a simple specific gravity tester -- it's a little
ball that floats or not.

sdb

--
What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com
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Jeff

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Since: May 21, 2007
Posts: 1219



(Msg. 43) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:59 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:30:43 -0600, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>
>> <mike.TakeThisOut@nosam.org> wrote in message
>> news:50ocq39dnr9grcqaqpe6ujfo848ta6m2av@4ax.com...
>> <snipped>
>>
>>> This leaves only the load test, the sp gravity test and the parasitic
>>> current loss.
>>> You said the following:
>>>
>>> "You will need an ammeter with the capacity to read at least 1 amp to
>>> measure
>>> parasitic current drain. Make sure all lights and accessories are
>>> off, hook
>>> up the ammeter in series between the positive battery clamp and
>>> positive
>>> battery post and see how many milliamps are being drawn. You should
>>> see
>>> current draw drop after it has been sitting for around 5 minutes."
>>>
>>> I did not understand why the drop after 5 min????
>>> The car is just sitting there doing nothing. Is this more than
>>> obtaining a stable reading?
>> There is a technical service bulletin regarding battery maintenance and
>> testing, and I recall reading a synopsis somewhere that mentioned the wait
>> (I think about 5 minutes) for the amperage to drop off. I don't recall the
>> reason, but the most likely reason is a retained power or memory feature or
>> security system arming.
>
> For whatever it is worth - this morning I measured 12.86 volts on the
> bat terminals. That is compared to 12.92v yesterday (about 20 hours).
> Just sitting there does this not seem reasonable? That would be .5v
> in a week.

Actually, it is 0.06 V in a week.

> Do you happen to have the 'expected' loss standard(s)?
>
> m
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Ray O

External


Since: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 4627



(Msg. 44) Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:19 pm
Post subject: Re: 06 Sienna - Dead Battery -now what [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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<mike DeleteThis @nosam.org> wrote in message
news:icieq3lvvf3ls0p69s22lutj3tprr1mpaf@4ax.com...
<snipped>

> For whatever it is worth - this morning I measured 12.86 volts on the
> bat terminals. That is compared to 12.92v yesterday (about 20 hours).
> Just sitting there does this not seem reasonable? That would be .5v
> in a week.
>
> Do you happen to have the 'expected' loss standard(s)?
>
> m

The battery's rate of discharge is usually not linear. I don't have the
specs for the rate of discharge.

If it makes you feel any better, the fact that Toyota issued a TSB outlining
how to measure battery drain on a Sienna tells me that the situation you're
in is not that uncommon. I'd bet the dealer has more current information
than I do on whether or not your battery and charging system are good and
what to do if it is not.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
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