'06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat

"Mike Simmons" <mikesim.TakeThisOut@yhti.net> wrote in message
news:13l1klaaraevp1d@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Ed H." <edo.hart.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:jZ24j.290$gi7.255@trnddc04...
>>
>> "TBone" <NoWay.TakeThisOut@nothere.com> wrote in message
>> news:4750861d$0$2311$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>> "Roy" <Roy.TakeThisOut@Fhome.net> wrote in message
>>> news:475077cc$0$2355$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>
>>>> "TBone" <NoWay.TakeThisOut@nothere.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4750646b$0$9618$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>> "Ed H." <edo.hart.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:TxO3j.40709$ng.39540@trnddc08...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Beryl" <flyingterrapin.TakeThisOut@chillylbits.org> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:13kv8r1hjj7opd3@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>>> Hober Mallow wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I drive an '06 Ram 2500 with Cummins Diesel motor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't seem to 'hold' heat very well. I can have the truck all
>>>>>>>> warmed up, right at the centerpoint of the temp gauge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then I'll park it and shut it off. In about an hour I'll come back
>>>>>>>> to start it up and the temperature gauge reads stone cold and I'll
>>>>>>>> need to warm it up completely again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My truck seems to cool down rather quickly. I think the thermostat
>>>>>>>> is OK.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Someone told me this is because Diesel motors run on the principle
>>>>>>>> of using as little fuel as possible, thus a Diesel just doesn't run
>>>>>>>> as hot as a gasoline motor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any comments? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Rocket Man
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A narrow, stretched out inline engine has more surface area that a
>>>>>>> compact, chunky V-type.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does that have to do with anything the OP asked?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, I recently installed qLogic iCLi on 4 servers. This allowed me
>>>>>> to upgrade the firmware of the individual iSCSI storage array members
>>>>>> in a 3 member storage array group - to which the 4 servers have a
>>>>>> total of 10 volumes attached - without shutting down any of the
>>>>>> servers during the storage array firmware update process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's that have to do with anything? About as much as your answer
>>>>>> to Hober Mallow does.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well dude, what it has to do with is the simple fact that more surface
>>>>> area of the inline block means that the engine can and will cool down
>>>>> faster, especially when no longer running .
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that it might have to do with the liquid that might
>>>> disapate the heat quicker? Regards the size, a 360v is probably about
>>>> the same in surface area but not as heavy as the I-6
>>>
>>>
>>> Please explain to me exactly how the liquid within the block is going to
>>> do much of anything when the engine is not running and it is not moving?
>>> A V-8 would not have as much surface area as an I-6 or to put it much
>>> more accurately, not as much surface area in relation to total area.
>>>
>>> --
>>> If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
>>>
>
>
> First, congrats on the most reasoned approach to the vexing problem of the
> rapidly cooling Cummins. This thread appears to be getting a tad <ahem>
> out of hand!
>
>
>> Just a few guesses because that's what we all seem to be doing...
>> 1) Heat moves through different substance at different speeds. I don't
>> know the relative heat conduction of oil, water/coolant and cast iron.
>
> The property you are referring to is thermal conductivity which is
> conventionally expressed as "k". "k" is = Btu/h/ft2/degreesF/ft. The "k"
> of materials varies greatly, for example the "k" of water is .343 @ 32
> degrees F while the "k" of wrought iron is 34.9 @ ~60-212 degrees F.
> Interestingly, with the exception of most metals, the "k" varies with
> temperature, increasing as temperature rises. The reverse is true in
> crystalline materials.

Fastinating. Questions...
1) From your equation, it looks like a higher "k" value mean faster heat
transfer. Is that correct?
2) What is "h" in the above equation?
3) What is the "k" of water at say 75F or 212F? If one where to plot the
"k" of water vs. the temperature of water, would that be a straight line, a
logarithmic line, or would there be peeks and valleys?
4) Does pressure affect the "k" of water at different temperatures?

>> 2) Solids can only transfer heat via conduction or radiation, while
>> liquids can also transfer heat via convection.
>
> Not exactly true as solids can indeed transfer heat via convection.
> Conduction is the transfer of heat from one part of a body to another part
> or to another body by short range interaction of molecules and/or
> electrons. Convection is the transfer of heat by the combined mechanism of
> fluid mixing and conduction. A good example is a forced air electric
> furnace. The heat from the electric coil is transferred to the air via
> convection. Radiation is the transfer of heat in the form of
> electromagnetic waves. All bodies above absolute zero radiate.

Whoa, I'm a little lost on this one. I would think that the heat would be
transfered to the air at the solid coil/fluid air interface via conduction
and radiation, then the fluid air would transfere it primarily via
convection. In other words convection would be occuring at the solid/fluid
interface, which means...I had to think this one through while typing my
response, but I think see it now.


> I'd be willing to bet that some
>> convection occurs inside an engine after shutdown.
>
> Actually, all three are occuring simulataneously!
>>
>> It would require an engineer to calculate how fast any engine would cool
>> down from normal operating temperature to any given ambient temperature
>> because of a huge number of variables (many of which I probably wouldn't
>> even think about).
>
> Any engineer who attempt to calculate this is sending himself on a fools
> errand. As you correctly observed, there are simply too many variables to
> accurately predict what will happen. I remember years ago in one of my
> engineering classes the professor gave us a drawing of a table with four
> legs. On the table were stacked randomly a series of books. The weight
> of each book was given and the relative placement of each stack was
> accurately represented. Our challenge was to "determine" the amount of
> weight (or load) each table leg was bearing. We were given one hour to
> solve the problem. Off we went with slide rules and formulae to calculate
> the load on each leg. At the end of the hour we each presented our
> results and the methodology. All of us were wrong! How then could the
> load be determined, we asked? He said that you simply picked up the table
> and weighed each leg on a scale. A lesson in practical engineering I
> remember to this day!
>
>
> We could heat two trucks to normal temperature, then
>> park then near each other, then measure the time it takes to cool down.
>
> Now yer talkin'!
>
>
>> But, where do we measure the temperature - the thermostat, the oil pan,
>> the location of the temperature gauge sending unit, the side of the
>> block, the geometeric center of the engine?
>
> A good point! Where, indeed? Since each engine is different, what do you
> use as you reference point? Probably the most logical is the geometric
> center, then both engines must be heated to the same temperature and then
> record the time each engine takes to reach equillibrium with ambient.
> That would be my guess...
>
> Mike
>
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

"Ed H." <edo.hart RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
news:cP44j.765$AX6.472@trnddc07...
>
> "Mike Simmons" <mikesim RemoveThis @yhti.net> wrote in message
> news:13l1klaaraevp1d@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> "Ed H." <edo.hart RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:jZ24j.290$gi7.255@trnddc04...
>>>
>>> "TBone" <NoWay RemoveThis @nothere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4750861d$0$2311$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>> "Roy" <Roy RemoveThis @Fhome.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:475077cc$0$2355$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "TBone" <NoWay RemoveThis @nothere.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4750646b$0$9618$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>>> "Ed H." <edo.hart RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:TxO3j.40709$ng.39540@trnddc08...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Beryl" <flyingterrapin RemoveThis @chillylbits.org> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:13kv8r1hjj7opd3@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>>>> Hober Mallow wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I drive an '06 Ram 2500 with Cummins Diesel motor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It doesn't seem to 'hold' heat very well. I can have the truck
>>>>>>>>> all warmed up, right at the centerpoint of the temp gauge.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then I'll park it and shut it off. In about an hour I'll come
>>>>>>>>> back to start it up and the temperature gauge reads stone cold and
>>>>>>>>> I'll need to warm it up completely again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My truck seems to cool down rather quickly. I think the
>>>>>>>>> thermostat is OK.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Someone told me this is because Diesel motors run on the principle
>>>>>>>>> of using as little fuel as possible, thus a Diesel just doesn't
>>>>>>>>> run as hot as a gasoline motor.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any comments? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Rocket Man
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A narrow, stretched out inline engine has more surface area that a
>>>>>>>> compact, chunky V-type.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What does that have to do with anything the OP asked?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, I recently installed qLogic iCLi on 4 servers. This allowed me
>>>>>>> to upgrade the firmware of the individual iSCSI storage array
>>>>>>> members in a 3 member storage array group - to which the 4 servers
>>>>>>> have a total of 10 volumes attached - without shutting down any of
>>>>>>> the servers during the storage array firmware update process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's that have to do with anything? About as much as your answer
>>>>>>> to Hober Mallow does.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well dude, what it has to do with is the simple fact that more
>>>>>> surface area of the inline block means that the engine can and will
>>>>>> cool down faster, especially when no longer running .
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that it might have to do with the liquid that might
>>>>> disapate the heat quicker? Regards the size, a 360v is probably about
>>>>> the same in surface area but not as heavy as the I-6
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please explain to me exactly how the liquid within the block is going
>>>> to do much of anything when the engine is not running and it is not
>>>> moving? A V-8 would not have as much surface area as an I-6 or to put
>>>> it much more accurately, not as much surface area in relation to total
>>>> area.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
>>>>
>>
>>
>> First, congrats on the most reasoned approach to the vexing problem of
>> the rapidly cooling Cummins. This thread appears to be getting a tad
>> <ahem> out of hand!
>>
>>
>>> Just a few guesses because that's what we all seem to be doing...
>>> 1) Heat moves through different substance at different speeds. I don't
>>> know the relative heat conduction of oil, water/coolant and cast iron.
>>
>> The property you are referring to is thermal conductivity which is
>> conventionally expressed as "k". "k" is = Btu/h/ft2/degreesF/ft. The "k"
>> of materials varies greatly, for example the "k" of water is .343 @ 32
>> degrees F while the "k" of wrought iron is 34.9 @ ~60-212 degrees F.
>> Interestingly, with the exception of most metals, the "k" varies with
>> temperature, increasing as temperature rises. The reverse is true in
>> crystalline materials.
>
> Fastinating. Questions...
> 1) From your equation, it looks like a higher "k" value mean faster heat
> transfer. Is that correct?

Yes

> 2) What is "h" in the above equation?

Hours
> 3) What is the "k" of water at say 75F or 212F? If one where to plot the
> "k" of water vs. the temperature of water, would that be a straight line,
> a logarithmic line, or would there be peeks and valleys?

The "k" of water is relatively stable until the phase change occurs. For
example the "k" of water @ 140 degrees F is .377. Once the phase change to
ice occurs, the "k" increases to 1.26. A phase change to steam @ 200
degrees F results in a "k" of .0132.

> 4) Does pressure affect the "k" of water at different temperatures?

Only after the phase change to steam.


>
>>> 2) Solids can only transfer heat via conduction or radiation, while
>>> liquids can also transfer heat via convection.
>>
>> Not exactly true as solids can indeed transfer heat via convection.
>> Conduction is the transfer of heat from one part of a body to another
>> part or to another body by short range interaction of molecules and/or
>> electrons. Convection is the transfer of heat by the combined mechanism
>> of fluid mixing and conduction. A good example is a forced air electric
>> furnace. The heat from the electric coil is transferred to the air via
>> convection. Radiation is the transfer of heat in the form of
>> electromagnetic waves. All bodies above absolute zero radiate.
>
> Whoa, I'm a little lost on this one. I would think that the heat would be
> transfered to the air at the solid coil/fluid air interface via conduction
> and radiation, then the fluid air would transfere it primarily via
> convection. In other words convection would be occuring at the
> solid/fluid interface, which means...I had to think this one through while
> typing my response, but I think see it now.

Yeah, I think you got it! Radiation in this example plays a very minor role
since radiation doe a poor job of heating air since air is mainly made up of
empty space. You can take a radiant heat source in a cool room and stand
some distance away and "feel" the warmth impinging on your body, but the air
temp between you and the heat source remains relatively unchanged. That's
why space between us and the sun remains quite cold... there's nuthin' to
heat!

To elaborate (a little) on the convection example above, there are really
two forms of convention, natural and forced.

I hope this clarifies it for you.

Mike

>
>
>> I'd be willing to bet that some
>>> convection occurs inside an engine after shutdown.
>>
>> Actually, all three are occuring simulataneously!
>>>
>>> It would require an engineer to calculate how fast any engine would cool
>>> down from normal operating temperature to any given ambient temperature
>>> because of a huge number of variables (many of which I probably wouldn't
>>> even think about).
>>
>> Any engineer who attempt to calculate this is sending himself on a fools
>> errand. As you correctly observed, there are simply too many variables
>> to accurately predict what will happen. I remember years ago in one of my
>> engineering classes the professor gave us a drawing of a table with four
>> legs. On the table were stacked randomly a series of books. The weight
>> of each book was given and the relative placement of each stack was
>> accurately represented. Our challenge was to "determine" the amount of
>> weight (or load) each table leg was bearing. We were given one hour to
>> solve the problem. Off we went with slide rules and formulae to
>> calculate the load on each leg. At the end of the hour we each presented
>> our results and the methodology. All of us were wrong! How then could
>> the load be determined, we asked? He said that you simply picked up the
>> table and weighed each leg on a scale. A lesson in practical engineering
>> I remember to this day!
>>
>>
>> We could heat two trucks to normal temperature, then
>>> park then near each other, then measure the time it takes to cool down.
>>
>> Now yer talkin'!
>>
>>
>>> But, where do we measure the temperature - the thermostat, the oil pan,
>>> the location of the temperature gauge sending unit, the side of the
>>> block, the geometeric center of the engine?
>>
>> A good point! Where, indeed? Since each engine is different, what do
>> you use as you reference point? Probably the most logical is the
>> geometric center, then both engines must be heated to the same
>> temperature and then record the time each engine takes to reach
>> equillibrium with ambient. That would be my guess...
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

<theguy.TakeThisOut@whatever.net> wrote in message
news:ohi1l35ja50g0v2tdlci7ucc2vju3f4t69@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:14:17 -0800 (PST), azwiley1
> <wiley156.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 30, 6:31 pm, "Mike Simmons" <mike....TakeThisOut@yhti.net> wrote:
>>> "azwiley1" <wiley....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:88027a78-92f8-45f1-a721-c398fcb916f7@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Nov 29, 10:47 pm, Beryl <flyingterra....TakeThisOut@chillylbits.org> wrote:
>>> >> Hober Mallow wrote:
>>> >> > Hello Everyone,
>>>
>>> >> > I drive an '06 Ram 2500 with Cummins Diesel motor.
>>>
>>> >> > It doesn't seem to 'hold' heat very well. I can have the truck all
>>> >> > warmed
>>> >> > up, right at the centerpoint of the temp gauge.
>>>
>>> >> > Then I'll park it and shut it off. In about an hour I'll come back
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > start it up and the temperature gauge reads stone cold and I'll
>>> >> > need to
>>> >> > warm it up completely again.
>>>
>>> >> > My truck seems to cool down rather quickly. I think the thermostat
>>> >> > is
>>> >> > OK.
>>>
>>> >> > Someone told me this is because Diesel motors run on the principle
>>> >> > of
>>> >> > using
>>> >> > as little fuel as possible, thus a Diesel just doesn't run as hot
>>> >> > as a
>>> >> > gasoline motor.
>>>
>>> >> > Any comments? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> >> > The Rocket Man
>>>
>>> >> A narrow, stretched out inline engine has more surface area that a
>>> >> compact, chunky V-type.
>>>
>>> >> Now... combine that with a.a.d.t resident thermodynamacist punkin's
>>> >> intriguing hypothesis. LOL!- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> > Intriguing hypothesis huh?
>>> > So you are tell me that if the out side temp is say 90 that the block
>>> > is going to cool down at the same rate as if the outside temp is say
>>> > 40? Bullshit.
>>>
>>> Go to the head of the class, Wiley! The temperature differential (delta
>>> t
>>> in engineer speak) is critical in the rate of heat loss.
>>>
>>> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>Aww gee thanks Mike. (I think) <g>
>
> is that gonna piss sheryl off? just askin, cause i want to be there
> to see it if it is.

Naw, it's pissed all the time. Maybe a side effect of being a vegetarian,
but then I've known some quit amiable vegetarians, so that's not the reason.
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

"TBone" <NoWay RemoveThis @nothere.com> wrote in message
news:4750ef42$0$2306$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Ed H." <edo.hart RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:ib24j.197$t31.191@trnddc02...
>>
>> "TBone" <NoWay RemoveThis @nothere.com> wrote in message
>> news:4750646b$0$9618$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>> "Ed H." <edo.hart RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
>>> news:TxO3j.40709$ng.39540@trnddc08...
>>>>
>>>> "Beryl" <flyingterrapin RemoveThis @chillylbits.org> wrote in message
>>>> news:13kv8r1hjj7opd3@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>> Hober Mallow wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I drive an '06 Ram 2500 with Cummins Diesel motor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't seem to 'hold' heat very well. I can have the truck all
>>>>>> warmed up, right at the centerpoint of the temp gauge.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I'll park it and shut it off. In about an hour I'll come back
>>>>>> to start it up and the temperature gauge reads stone cold and I'll
>>>>>> need to warm it up completely again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My truck seems to cool down rather quickly. I think the thermostat
>>>>>> is OK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Someone told me this is because Diesel motors run on the principle of
>>>>>> using as little fuel as possible, thus a Diesel just doesn't run as
>>>>>> hot as a gasoline motor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any comments? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Rocket Man
>>>>>
>>>>> A narrow, stretched out inline engine has more surface area that a
>>>>> compact, chunky V-type.
>>>>
>>>> What does that have to do with anything the OP asked?
>>>>
>>>> BTW, I recently installed qLogic iCLi on 4 servers. This allowed me to
>>>> upgrade the firmware of the individual iSCSI storage array members in a
>>>> 3 member storage array group - to which the 4 servers have a total of
>>>> 10 volumes attached - without shutting down any of the servers during
>>>> the storage array firmware update process.
>>>>
>>>> What's that have to do with anything? About as much as your answer to
>>>> Hober Mallow does.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well dude, what it has to do with is the simple fact that more surface
>>> area of the inline block means that the engine can and will cool down
>>> faster, especially when no longer running . Perhaps you might want to
>>> actually read and think about what was written before jumping in out of
>>> anger and simply making a fool out of yourself.
>>>
>>> --
>>> If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Given the way you addressed me, that's kind of funny. However, no where
>> did the OP ask about it compared any engine configuration, other than
>> gasoline. He doesn't mention V-8 or I-6, except that we know he has an
>> I-6.
>
> The way that I addressed you???? Give me a break. You are really
> grasping at straws here. As for the engine configuration, while the OP
> did not ask for a comparison between different types, the inline
> configuration of the Cummins is a factor in how fast it loses heat.
>
>>
>> Furthermore, I'm not sure about Beryl's assumption that an I-6 has more
>> surface area than a V-8.
>
> Then I guess that you never really looked at an inline engine.
>
>> After all, a V-8 has two cylinder heads sticking out in the air, which
>> implies more surface area because there are 2 more sides to account for.
>
> That would be true if it wern't complete BS. There is almost the same
> amount of surface area between the two. While the V series has two heads,
> they are about half as long so where is the gain. The only gain is in the
> added area from the two added endpoints which really doesn't add up to all
> that much.
>
>> And usually a V-8 has more displacement that an I-6. It's far to general
>> a statement. One can compare specific engines, for instance the Cummins
>> 5.9L and the Magnum 5.9L
>>
>> I don't know what the surface area of a Cummins 5.9 is compared to a
>> Magnum 5.9, but the Cummins has a bore of 4.02" and a stroke of 4.72"
>> where as the Magnum has a bore of 4" and a stroke of 3.58" which means
>> that the surface area of the cylinder which the piston travels past is
>> actually larger on the Magnum by about 2 square inches.
>
> Really??? Since you have just claimed that the Cummins has a slightly
> larger bore and a much longer stroke (which would make sense since it has
> two less cylinders and the same displacement), how exactly does the Magnum
> have a LARGER surface area per cylinder??????

Correction, "_total_ the surface area of the cylinder_s_ which the piston_s_
travel past..." The Magnum has a smaller surface area through which the
piston travels per cylinder, but the surface area for all the cylinders is
slightly greater in the Magnum. I made a linquistic mistake and if I posted
the formulas below this probably wouldn't be an issue.

Magnum 5.9 surface area for the piston travel = 4" x Pi x 3.58" x 8 = 359.7
square inches.
Cummins 5.9 surface area for the piston travel = 4.02" x Pi x 4.72 x 6 =
357.5 square inches.
>
>> Of course the actual surface area of the cylinder walls in both engines
>> is larger and that's no way to measure the outside surface area of the
>> engine, but it's interesting to note.
>
> What exactly does "the actual surface area of the cylinder walls in both
> engines is larger" even mean? Larger than what??? This is not a wise
> crack, I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.

The cylinders walls have to extend below the top of the pistons so that the
pistons will remain in the cylinders. Therefore, the actual surface area of
the cylinder walls is larger than what I calculated.

>
>> Does anyone here know the surface area of the Cummins engine, and/or a
>> the Magnum 5.9?
>>
>> Also, the surface area is only one part of the equation. How about
>> thermal mass? I don't know the weight of the Cummins engine, or the
>> Magnum, but I understand those Cummins are pretty heavy. That implies
>> more thermal mass, which will hold the temperature longer.
>
> More thermal mass means that it can store more heat energy, not
> necessarily that it can hold temp longer. Thermal transfer rates and the
> surface area exposed has a lot of influence on how quikly that heat is
> pulled from that mass.
>
>>
>> Finally, I can't speak from experience about the Cummins cool down time,
>> but my Duramax 6.6L V-8 diesel cools down at about the same rate as the
>> OP's. I don't know the surface area, weight, or thermal mass of that
>> engine either, but anecdotally, it doesn't support Beryl's claim.
>
> That would be valid only if your and his truck were exposed to the same
> temp and have the same or similar under hood conditions. I don't know if
> that is the case or not and neither do you. I am not saying that Beryl is
> correct in this theory, only that it was on point with the OP's question
> and was a valid theory.
>
The underhood conditions will, by definition, be dissimilar, it's the
conditons outside of the hood that need to be the same for a meaningfull
comparison.

I mis-represented myself in my haste to post (dang, I should've been a poet)
and caught it only after I clicked the send button. What I should have
said is that my 6.6L Duramax cools faster than my 5.9 Magnum in
approximately the same conditions. Those conditions - since I bought the
Duramax - have been such that, after sitting for about an hour, no matter
what the ambient tempurature is, the DMax engine has to run for about the
same amount of time for the tempurature gauge to read above it's low of 180F
as compared to the amount of time required heat it up at sunrise after
sitting all night. This is anecdotal as I haven't actually sat with a stop
watch and a thermometer, but I believe it to be true.
> --
> If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

I've never read such pearls of wisdom as "And I think of Delta T (or Delta
anything) as a change in T (or in anything). Different than a differential"

Then there's "A differential exists between two or more things, all at once,
at the
same time. But a change in some thing does not exist at once, because
some thing that was once like that and then changed is no longer like
that, it's now like this. That's why there's time, so everything doesn't
all happen at once."

Lets not forget :"But I'm not an engineer."

I only I wish I was half as smart as Beryl, then I might understand what
this genius wrote. Until I'm as smart as Beryl let me add these few simple
words:
Beryl, lay off the sauce man, or get yourself to an emergency room because
you write like you just suffered a stroke.


"Beryl" <flyingterrapin.TakeThisOut@chillylbits.org> wrote in message
news:13l1urgms0nt856@corp.supernews.com...
> Mike Simmons wrote:
>> "azwiley1" <wiley156.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:88027a78-92f8-45f1-a721-c398fcb916f7@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>On Nov 29, 10:47 pm, Beryl <flyingterra....TakeThisOut@chillylbits.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hober Mallow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hello Everyone,
>>>>
>>>>>I drive an '06 Ram 2500 with Cummins Diesel motor.
>>>>
>>>>>It doesn't seem to 'hold' heat very well. I can have the truck all
>>>>>warmed
>>>>>up, right at the centerpoint of the temp gauge.
>>>>
>>>>>Then I'll park it and shut it off. In about an hour I'll come back to
>>>>>start it up and the temperature gauge reads stone cold and I'll need to
>>>>>warm it up completely again.
>>>>
>>>>>My truck seems to cool down rather quickly. I think the thermostat is
>>>>>OK.
>>>>
>>>>>Someone told me this is because Diesel motors run on the principle of
>>>>>using
>>>>>as little fuel as possible, thus a Diesel just doesn't run as hot as a
>>>>>gasoline motor.
>>>>
>>>>>Any comments? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>>>The Rocket Man
>>>>
>>>>A narrow, stretched out inline engine has more surface area that a
>>>>compact, chunky V-type.
>>>>
>>>>Now... combine that with a.a.d.t resident thermodynamacist punkin's
>>>>intriguing hypothesis. LOL!- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>>- Show quoted text -
>>>
>>>Intriguing hypothesis huh?
>>>So you are tell me that if the out side temp is say 90 that the block
>>>is going to cool down at the same rate as if the outside temp is say
>>>40? Bullshit.
>
> Sarcasm hard to grasp, punkin?
>
>> Go to the head of the class, Wiley!
>
> Atta-boy punkin. Go! Then turn left. There's a stool and a red pointy cap
> with a "D" for you in the corner.
>
>> The temperature differential (delta t in engineer speak) is critical in
>> the rate of heat loss.
>
> Hmmm. I don't detect a condescending tone in your reply. Not the slightest
> bit. *Any* moron knows that something gets cold faster when it's friggin'
> cold outside!
>
> And I think of Delta T (or Delta anything) as a change in T (or in
> anything). Different than a differential.
> A differential exists between two or more things, all at once, at the same
> time. But a change in some thing does not exist at once, because some
> thing that was once like that and then changed is no longer like that,
> it's now like this. That's why there's time, so everything doesn't all
> happen at once.
> But I'm not an engineer.
>
>> Mike
>
> And I also think your solid/convection explanation was messed up. The coil
> in your forced air electric furnace did not transfer heat via convection.
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

Edith:
> I've never read such pearls of wisdom as "And I think of Delta T (or Delta
> anything) as a change in T (or in anything). Different than a differential"

I can use a more toddleresque style for you if you need that.

> Then there's "A differential exists between two or more things, all at once,
> at the
> same time. But a change in some thing does not exist at once, because
> some thing that was once like that and then changed is no longer like
> that, it's now like this. That's why there's time, so everything doesn't
> all happen at once."

Its right eye popped, Edith. I saw waves emanate from the site.

> Lets not forget :"But I'm not an engineer."

No, poor me. I have no official documents attesting to my ability.

> I only I wish I was half as smart as Beryl, then I might understand what
> this genius wrote. Until I'm as smart as Beryl let me add these few simple
> words:
> Beryl, lay off the sauce man, or get yourself to an emergency room because
> you write like you just suffered a stroke.

I don't drink, Edith.
Ok, I had a glass of wine 8 years ago.
No drugs too. I'll send you a urine sample.
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

Edith:

> "TBone" <NoWay.DeleteThis@nothere.com> wrote in message
> news:4750ef42$0$2306$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>>"Ed H." <edo.hart.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>news:ib24j.197$t31.191@trnddc02...
>>
>>>"TBone" <NoWay.DeleteThis@nothere.com> wrote in message
>>>news:4750646b$0$9618$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>
>>>>"Ed H." <edo.hart.DeleteThis@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:TxO3j.40709$ng.39540@trnddc08...
>>>>
>>>>>"Beryl" <flyingterrapin.DeleteThis@chillylbits.org> wrote in message
>>>>>news:13kv8r1hjj7opd3@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hober Mallow wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hello Everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I drive an '06 Ram 2500 with Cummins Diesel motor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It doesn't seem to 'hold' heat very well. I can have the truck all
>>>>>>>warmed up, right at the centerpoint of the temp gauge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Then I'll park it and shut it off. In about an hour I'll come back
>>>>>>>to start it up and the temperature gauge reads stone cold and I'll
>>>>>>>need to warm it up completely again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My truck seems to cool down rather quickly. I think the thermostat
>>>>>>>is OK.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Someone told me this is because Diesel motors run on the principle of
>>>>>>>using as little fuel as possible, thus a Diesel just doesn't run as
>>>>>>>hot as a gasoline motor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Any comments? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The Rocket Man
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A narrow, stretched out inline engine has more surface area that a
>>>>>>compact, chunky V-type.
>>>>>
>>>>>What does that have to do with anything the OP asked?
>>>>>
>>>>>BTW, I recently installed qLogic iCLi on 4 servers. This allowed me to
>>>>>upgrade the firmware of the individual iSCSI storage array members in a
>>>>>3 member storage array group - to which the 4 servers have a total of
>>>>>10 volumes attached - without shutting down any of the servers during
>>>>>the storage array firmware update process.
>>>>>
>>>>>What's that have to do with anything? About as much as your answer to
>>>>>Hober Mallow does.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well dude, what it has to do with is the simple fact that more surface
>>>>area of the inline block means that the engine can and will cool down
>>>>faster, especially when no longer running . Perhaps you might want to
>>>>actually read and think about what was written before jumping in out of
>>>>anger and simply making a fool out of yourself.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Given the way you addressed me, that's kind of funny. However, no where
>>>did the OP ask about it compared any engine configuration, other than
>>>gasoline. He doesn't mention V-8 or I-6, except that we know he has an
>>>I-6.
>>
>>The way that I addressed you???? Give me a break. You are really
>>grasping at straws here. As for the engine configuration, while the OP
>>did not ask for a comparison between different types, the inline
>>configuration of the Cummins is a factor in how fast it loses heat.
>>
>>
>>>Furthermore, I'm not sure about Beryl's assumption that an I-6 has more
>>>surface area than a V-8.
>>
>>Then I guess that you never really looked at an inline engine.
>>
>>
>>>After all, a V-8 has two cylinder heads sticking out in the air, which
>>>implies more surface area because there are 2 more sides to account for.
>>
>>That would be true if it wern't complete BS. There is almost the same
>>amount of surface area between the two. While the V series has two heads,
>>they are about half as long so where is the gain. The only gain is in the
>>added area from the two added endpoints which really doesn't add up to all
>>that much.
>>
>>
>>>And usually a V-8 has more displacement that an I-6. It's far to general
>>>a statement. One can compare specific engines, for instance the Cummins
>>>5.9L and the Magnum 5.9L
>>>
>>>I don't know what the surface area of a Cummins 5.9 is compared to a
>>>Magnum 5.9, but the Cummins has a bore of 4.02" and a stroke of 4.72"
>>>where as the Magnum has a bore of 4" and a stroke of 3.58" which means
>>>that the surface area of the cylinder which the piston travels past is
>>>actually larger on the Magnum by about 2 square inches.
>>
>>Really??? Since you have just claimed that the Cummins has a slightly
>>larger bore and a much longer stroke (which would make sense since it has
>>two less cylinders and the same displacement), how exactly does the Magnum
>>have a LARGER surface area per cylinder??????
>
>
> Correction, "_total_ the surface area of the cylinder_s_ which the piston_s_
> travel past..." The Magnum has a smaller surface area through which the
> piston travels per cylinder, but the surface area for all the cylinders is
> slightly greater in the Magnum. I made a linquistic mistake and if I posted
> the formulas below this probably wouldn't be an issue.
>
> Magnum 5.9 surface area for the piston travel = 4" x Pi x 3.58" x 8 = 359.7
> square inches.
> Cummins 5.9 surface area for the piston travel = 4.02" x Pi x 4.72 x 6 =
> 357.5 square inches.
>
>>>Of course the actual surface area of the cylinder walls in both engines
>>>is larger and that's no way to measure the outside surface area of the
>>>engine, but it's interesting to note.
>>
>>What exactly does "the actual surface area of the cylinder walls in both
>>engines is larger" even mean? Larger than what??? This is not a wise
>>crack, I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.
>
>
> The cylinders walls have to extend below the top of the pistons so that the
> pistons will remain in the cylinders. Therefore, the actual surface area of
> the cylinder walls is larger than what I calculated.
>
>
>>> Does anyone here know the surface area of the Cummins engine, and/or a
>>>the Magnum 5.9?
>>>
>>>Also, the surface area is only one part of the equation. How about
>>>thermal mass? I don't know the weight of the Cummins engine, or the
>>>Magnum, but I understand those Cummins are pretty heavy. That implies
>>>more thermal mass, which will hold the temperature longer.
>>
>>More thermal mass means that it can store more heat energy, not
>>necessarily that it can hold temp longer. Thermal transfer rates and the
>>surface area exposed has a lot of influence on how quikly that heat is
>>pulled from that mass.
>>
>>
>>>Finally, I can't speak from experience about the Cummins cool down time,
>>>but my Duramax 6.6L V-8 diesel cools down at about the same rate as the
>>>OP's. I don't know the surface area, weight, or thermal mass of that
>>>engine either, but anecdotally, it doesn't support Beryl's claim.
>>
>>That would be valid only if your and his truck were exposed to the same
>>temp and have the same or similar under hood conditions. I don't know if
>>that is the case or not and neither do you. I am not saying that Beryl is
>>correct in this theory, only that it was on point with the OP's question
>>and was a valid theory.
>>
>
> The underhood conditions will, by definition, be dissimilar, it's the
> conditons outside of the hood that need to be the same for a meaningfull
> comparison.
>
> I mis-represented myself in my haste to post (dang, I should've been a poet)
> and caught it only after I clicked the send button. What I should have
> said is that my 6.6L Duramax cools faster than my 5.9 Magnum in
> approximately the same conditions. Those conditions - since I bought the
> Duramax - have been such that, after sitting for about an hour, no matter
> what the ambient tempurature is, the DMax engine has to run for about the
> same amount of time for the tempurature gauge to read above it's low of 180F
> as compared to the amount of time required heat it up at sunrise after
> sitting all night. This is anecdotal as I haven't actually sat with a stop
> watch and a thermometer, but I believe it to be true.

It isn't anecdotal to you, Edith, whether or not you used a stopwatch
and thermometer.
It is anecdotal to the rest of us. Whether or not you used a stopwatch
and thermometer.
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

Edith:

>>>I don't know what the surface area of a Cummins 5.9 is compared to a
>>>Magnum 5.9, but the Cummins has a bore of 4.02" and a stroke of 4.72"
>>>where as the Magnum has a bore of 4" and a stroke of 3.58" which means
>>>that the surface area of the cylinder which the piston travels past is
>>>actually larger on the Magnum by about 2 square inches.

....

> Correction, "_total_ the surface area of the cylinder_s_ which the piston_s_
> travel past..." The Magnum has a smaller surface area through which the
> piston travels per cylinder, but the surface area for all the cylinders is
> slightly greater in the Magnum. I made a linquistic mistake and if I posted
> the formulas below this probably wouldn't be an issue.

Your issues go beyond linquistic mistakes, you moron.

> Magnum 5.9 surface area for the piston travel = 4" x Pi x 3.58" x 8 = 359.7
> square inches.
> Cummins 5.9 surface area for the piston travel = 4.02" x Pi x 4.72 x 6 =
> 357.5 square inches.
>
>>>Of course the actual surface area of the cylinder walls in both engines
>>>is larger and that's no way to measure the outside surface area of the
>>>engine, but it's interesting to note.

Now that you've explained what you were talking about, no, this isn't
interesting to note.

>>What exactly does "the actual surface area of the cylinder walls in both
>>engines is larger" even mean? Larger than what??? This is not a wise
>>crack, I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.
>
>
> The cylinders walls have to extend below the top of the pistons so that the
> pistons will remain in the cylinders. Therefore, the actual surface area of
> the cylinder walls is larger than what I calculated.

Combustion chamber surface area has nothing to do with however much
cylinder sleeve extends below. Including the cylinder heads would have
made some sense. But you didn't, of course, so I have to tell you.
 >> Stay informed about: '06 Ram w/Diesel -- Doesn't 'hold' heat 

"TBone" <NoWay.RemoveThis@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:4750ef6e$0$2283$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "azwiley1" <wiley156.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6236370c-33e1-49f5-9c37-7b9249e1d460@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 30, 7:43 pm, the....RemoveThis@whatever.net wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:14:17 -0800 (PST), azwiley1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <wiley....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >On Nov 30, 6:31 pm, "Mike Simmons" <mike....RemoveThis@yhti.net> wrote:
>>> >> "azwiley1" <wiley....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> >>news:88027a78-92f8-45f1-a721-c398fcb916f7@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> >> > On Nov 29, 10:47 pm, Beryl <flyingterra....RemoveThis@chillylbits.org> wrote:
>>> >> >> Hober Mallow wrote:
>>> >> >> > Hello Everyone,
>>>
>>> >> >> > I drive an '06 Ram 2500 with Cummins Diesel motor.
>>>
>>> >> >> > It doesn't seem to 'hold' heat very well. I can have the truck
>>> >> >> > all
>>> >> >> > warmed
>>> >> >> > up, right at the centerpoint of the temp gauge.
>>>
>>> >> >> > Then I'll park it and shut it off. In about an hour I'll come
>>> >> >> > back to
>>> >> >> > start it up and the temperature gauge reads stone cold and I'll
>>> >> >> > need to
>>> >> >> > warm it up completely again.
>>>
>>> >> >> > My truck seems to cool down rather quickly. I think the
>>> >> >> > thermostat is
>>> >> >> > OK.
>>>
>>> >> >> > Someone told me this is because Diesel motors run on the
>>> >> >> > principle of
>>> >> >> > using
>>> >> >> > as little fuel as possible, thus a Diesel just doesn't run as
>>> >> >> > hot as a
>>> >> >> > gasoline motor.
>>>
>>> >> >> > Any comments? Suggestions? Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> >> >> > The Rocket Man
>>>
>>> >> >> A narrow, stretched out inline engine has more surface area that a
>>> >> >> compact, chunky V-type.
>>>
>>> >> >> Now... combine that with a.a.d.t resident thermodynamacist
>>> >> >> punkin's
>>> >> >> intriguing hypothesis. LOL!- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> >> >> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> >> > Intriguing hypothesis huh?
>>> >> > So you are tell me that if the out side temp is say 90 that the
>>> >> > block
>>> >> > is going to cool down at the same rate as if the outside temp is
>>> >> > say
>>> >> > 40? Bullshit.
>>>
>>> >> Go to the head of the class, Wiley! The temperature differential
>>> >> (delta t
>>> >> in engineer speak) is critical in the rate of heat loss.
>>>
>>> >> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> >Aww gee thanks Mike. (I think) <g>
>>>
>>> is that gonna piss sheryl off? just askin, cause i want to be there
>>> to see it if it is. - Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> I am sure it will, as it will boner
>
> Gee, how grown up of you,